So I started a thread on how you would interpret and recreate Ghost in the Shell's Major Motoko Kusanagi. Not that I'm complaining, but that thread has turned into a vigorous discussion on just HOW powerful Motoko's body is, what it can and can't do, skill vs. raw power, the level of cyberisation in supporting secsec9 characters, differentation betwen the manga, anime, series, etc. etc. and even the nature of anarchical artillery battles. So I figured I'd pose a different discussion topic in this thread.

When I first heard about and read the SR4 matrix rules, it seemed to me more like Ghost In The Shell's "Net" than Shadowrun had ever been before. everyone has a piece of tech on them all the time, that many people directly interface with their brains. These access the widespread wireless matrix, store data, communicate with other persona, run programs, and even hold data and neural command sets for knowledge and even physical skills. With AR overlays, a commlink is constantly feeding you relevant information, maps, and in some cases, tactical data. And everyone had one.

Now I know a commlink is NOT a cyber-brain. Of course not. But the leap from specific people interfacing with the matrix for certain, computer based tasks, and only a handful really being able to slice and blaze their way through, is a far cry from everyone being connected all the time.

And it's not nearly GITS' Net yet. There's many differences. But other than metagame purposes, and possible copyright infringement, why not?

One point I'll bring up is brain-hacking (and this is something Frank touched on in his re-ruling). We have shadowrun's simsense. Simsense can imbue a person with almost any knowledge skill, data, and even protocols that (when combined with wires) make you move differently. Simsense can make you experience reality differently, or even a completely different reality. It can re-write your memories and change your subconscious thinking. And a staggering amount of people plug (or trode link) computers into their brains, which carry the capacity to use this tech. And this piece of tech is connected to a (let's admit it) vulnerable network of millions upon billions of other computer systems and personas.

I'm just off to bed, so I can't really present any conclusions or further points of discussion, but I hope I've provoked some thought and discussion.

a lot more people then one first think about was connected in the older SR versions to. the big diff was that one had to sit down to use the matrix, now its on the go. remember, phone calls was already going over the SR matrix in older versions, one could even use that to connect to the matrix if one had the rules expansion for it.

everything have just gone more mobile, and in a single device vs one for simsense playback, matrix access (or two depending on how you look at a tortoise vs a terminal/deck) and riggers remote control.

It's also so cheap that you can buy the best possible equipment at chargen. Other than that, few thiings have changed.

And Ghosthacking, GitS Style, so far is impossible, though that might change with Unwired.

So It's no quite brain hacking, you should be able to give people really shifty "knowledge". I could see a virus that slotted a self-knowledge soft REPLACING the self-knowledge of what you THINK your favorite brand is. Take some Coke-or-Pepsi equivalence. You will buy whatever you think your favorite is. You don't reflect back over your life weighing all your soda drinking experience and make a rational choice. When you want a dark cola, and have both in front of you for the same price you just grab your favorite. I doubt a knowsoft "fact" about yourself could stand up to much contradictions("I just know hyzmarcastoybox.net is my favor porn site, but trolls, horse shoes, baby mice, nagas and a blow torch just don't seem to get me up!"). For the soda thing though you would think "Man WHY is it that Saeder Suds fav? eh just is I guess"

the thing about knowsofts is that they have an effect only as long as the knowsoft is running...

so unless its being accessed via some kind of implant, it will stop working the moment one removes the trodes or unplug the comlink...

Quite true and from the fluff almost all shopping and socializing technologically mediated. I imagine huge demographics are plugged in every single time they buy anything.

Nobody said that a commlink's sim module has to be active all the time. In fact I can see the module being OFF most of the time and people just interacting in AR.

Just like I think that the wireless functionality in cyberware would turned off unless you're at you Doc's place and he needs it turned on for diagnostics. Even then, I would be paranoid enough to make sure my mage buddy was using mind probe on the sly to check him out and see if he's on the up and up.

if your using trodes to access AR your using simsense...

Hence, and given the ridiculously low cost of decent commlinks, you layer your links, connecting to the outside wirld via linkage through one or more firewall links that you keep iced to the max.

makes me think of the fake barriers used in gits:sac to protect against black hammer like attacks.

I have recently been on a hardcore GITS spree, and though I can't stand Man-Machine Interface and I still need to watch the series, just rereading the original manga has been like walking through a parallel cyberpunk universe.

The #1 difference between GITS and Shadowrun, aside from magic, is the lack of a cyber brain and ghost. The basic premise that Ghost in the Shell revolves around is at what point do you stop/start becoming human? When your soul is nothing more than software, or you are software that has become a soul, are you human?

Shadowrun has a very different way of viewing the human soul, which is based primarily on a metahuman's essence. This all comes back to the magical backbone of reality, a reality that differs from that of Ghost in the Shell.

Primary focus aside, much of the form of things resembles Ghost in the Shell. The VR (maybe some AR?) networks that tie people's ghost together is very similar (though fundamentally different) to the SR Matrix. This is also true now that the matrix is no longer limited to fiber optic cables and instead spans out across the earth.

BTW, does anyone else see Motoko as a jar head that eventually becomes a Technomancer?

Which reminds me that those "dummy barriers" are quite often other people's brains. The Major is a bitch.

I agree that there are no specific rules for it, and that you cannot per se hack some-one's "soul/ghost", but I think, even within the current ruleset, there is more potential for Ghost in the Shell style hacking shenanigans.

Remember Anubis from Target: Matrix, anyone? He was an assassin decker, he used to hunt people down and fry them on the matrix. And if they wouldn't present themselves on the matrix for him to fry, he resorted to other difficult methods. Usually by replacing their night-time btl with a "black death" lethal biofeedback btl. He would also wire similar traps and damaging code and ware into their cyberterminals.

If Anubis survived the crash and is making his way in the wireless matrix... Look out. Maybe you don't even have a sim module in your commlink, preferring to use an AR glove and a pair of shades. Fair enough. It's a dangerous world and you're a careful guy. You do have a simdeck at home though, for playing your favourite simflicks and porn, but you don't keep it connected to the trix, because that would be asking for trouble. So you go out one day to pickup a copy of Karl Kombatmage 4. As you walk through the shopping mall, neon arrows and obnoxious profiles burn your retinas, so you flip the shades up onto your head. Ah, that's better. You pick up a carton of soymilk and some soychow for the dog, and a few packets of nerps, and electronically authorize your simvid purchase by flipping your smartshades back down for a moment.

You get home, feed the dog, have a glass of milk and sit down to load Karl Kombatmage onto your simdeck via datacable. You plug your commlink into the deck and load the simfile. Then you recline comfortably, hit play and plug the deck's sim module into your temple, anticipating Karl Kombatmage 4: The Magicanator. Oh. You're fried. How did that happen?

Well, we can safely assume it was Anubis. Next point, if your commlink had no sim module, you weren't connected via datajack or trodes, and your simdeck at home (basically a commlink/dataterm with a sim module in it) was not connected to the Matrix, how did you get brainfucked? Well, as you were walking down the street on your way home from work, Anubis exploited your commlink and stealthed his way in. Because you had no sim module or a DNI connection, you were completely invulnerable to attack. He could have crashed your persona, but that wouldn't do him any good. So he did some devious thinking and got to work. He replaced your Karl Kombatmage flick with a black death BTL. Then how did you not notice it was a different file when you fired it up, effectively putting the barrel in your own mouth? Anubis judiciously utilized progs such as Edit, Spoof and Command to fiddle and authenticicate the black death, making you think it was your favourite movie, and convincing your commlink to agree with you.

Let's look at a GitS example, such as the Laughing Man episode, where a whole group of people are convinced they are the "Laughing Man" and attempt to assassinate the chief of police, including one of the Chief's own bodyguards. Despite the ambiguous ending. You could do this scene within Shadowrun rules. Sure you'd need to premeditate it, and have a skilled team of deckers, ahem, hackers, but that sounds like a pretty standard run.

First off the hackers do some concerted legwork. They compile lists of anyone who will be there, and everyone who might be there. They find out what commlinks and cyberware everyone has and correlate the data with the lists and roles of everyone on it. So they wheedle it down, and select anyone with an implanted commlink with a Sim Module, preferably hot. In such a large conference and press scrum, this would probably come up with a dozen results. The "virus" that causes people to attack and proclaim themselves to be the laughing man would probably just be transient personafix code, and maybe a datasoft with instructions on where to find a fire-arm.

If you want to go more complicated, in SR3 there was rules for using simsense to reprogram some-one and erase or implant memories. A more portable, specific form of this is Psychotropic IC. With people effectively attatched to simsense tech all day long, as well as the new capacity of the internet to transmit traditionally hardchipped things like activesofts etc. with some skill and creative use of the tech, you could also do it this way. This would explain the scene in Ghost in the Shell, where they sit the garbage collector down and inform him that his memories of his wife and child are fake, just implanted memories. And the photo is really just a photo of his dog.

Personally I try and implant this kind of mind-fuck scenario into my games every now and then. I like pushing the negative, insidious angle of what drilling a hole in your skull can do to you beyond just "OMG D DAMAGE CODE!"

only problem is that unless the simdeck was hot sim modified one would only get a nasty stun...

still, that anubis was a very patient person, so i would not be surprised that he would plant a black beetle file in there at first run, one that would play perfectly normal until he had broken into the place and modified the simdeck. hell, he could just modify said deck so that it would send a lethal feed no matter what was played...

btw, that laughing man example is a difficult one as i had the impression that a lot of the people did what they did out of free will, to get the notoriety of being the laughing man without really being him. copycat killers anyone?

something tells me that unwired will give us some new toys in this department

and i just revisited the gits2 movie. talk about brain twister...

funny thing is that i keep seeing parallels between gits and transhuman space.

transhuman space is way more dystopia then one can first get the impression of, btw.
yes, one have the ability to live for ever, but exactly that leads to the old guard staying in power, just like the heads of a vampire clan...

In my post I mentioned "despite the ambiguous ending". Although, in Shadowrun, Laughing man could have just been such an elite hacker that he covered his cyber-brain alterations so subtly and skillfully that for all intents and purposes, he was never there at all. He probably could have built the viruses out of compiled junk code being transmitted from subway vending machines, their toasters, the traffic lights on the way to work, etc.

Hah, "ambiguous ending". That can be applied to so many Ghost in the Shell scenarios. Paizu or Paizu's scorned lover? Ambiguous ending. The suicide doll episode, where the doll who talks in movie quotes, says "I really did love you." Ambiguous ending. Kuze losing his original body in the same plane crash that Motoko lost hers in? The most ambiguous ending.

heh, your right.

ugh, looking at the first episode of the first sac season makes me hope that they bring back the rippers or sparky as a attack program.

nothing like being able to fry a comlink and maybe induce dumpshock on someone

also, that episode made me wonder the setup for the majors body swap was so elaborate, as they basically did it in a bathroom in that episode...

If you get knocked out by stun, it's possible that you're in a stable position and your DNI stays active, allowing physical overflow from further stun damage. This works out when you think about the real world implications, although the cold Sim doesn't allow you to burn your brain instantly it does allow a clever program to set up resonating waves in your brain and supplement them over a slightly longer period of time.

Blackout doesn't overflow, but since he's using Black Hammer equivalents it'll just take longer to fry your brain.

Like tasering some-one a few dozen times.

There was a novel (I think Effinger's When Gravity Fails) where one character had a police procedures skillsoft kind of thing, but it had ads.

Stand to the side of the door, sidearm readied but low, and knock. Experience the delicious, mountain-grown aroma of Folger's coffee. The best part of waking up is Folger's in your cup. Raise sidearm and kick in the door.

i dont think even black hammer overflows with a cold sim setup...

still, hot sim porn, who can resist?

"Just like other damage". Even if downgraded to stun, Black Hammer damage will overflow into physical and then kill you. Blackout doesn't overflow into physical and stops being effective after knocking the target out. Cold sim is no defence against Black Hammer, at best cold sim will give you a little while longer for someone to pull the plug and maybe stabilise you if they were too late, otherwise it's just dragging the whole thing out for longer than it needs to.

ouch, how could i read that bit so very very wrong.

that means that the rumored incident in emergence with a bunch of cold sim tourists being killed by feedback is possible without breaking any rules...

thats it, im giving up on VR, going wired reflexes and AR all the way from now on...