Is Str+2 damage correct for bows? Any reason they do so much more damage than anything else?

Nope, no errata. There clearly has to be some limit though. There can't be a strength 99 bow that does DV 101 for instance. It's really just up to the GM to say "sorry, they don't make bows that big" if players are getting out of hand

Yes, there is a limit. If you can pull it, someone can make it.

Why str+2 instead of (str/2)+2 like most other weapons?

str+2 sounds good to me. try shooting a bow at some coffee cans full of sand. an arrow will go threw more that a hand gun.

not to mention the nature of the arrow head. 2" wide razor blades going threw you will do mere damage that a 1/4" wide ball

Well, I'm talking about game mechanics. Not RL physics.

Anyhow, I've punched holes through the shoulderblades of a bear at 250 yards with a rifle. And I've bounced arrows off shoulder blades at 15 yards. So it's more complex than game mechanics should try to emulate. You can shove a stick through a haybale, but a fired arrow will lodge inside it. That doesn't mean sticks should do strx2.

Very good points. Arrows do not have the kinetic mass that a bullet dose. I am not familiar with 4th at all. so i can't really comment much on the damage coding for it.
+2M is the 3r code for it, so they most likely just ported it over.
+2 M always sounded good to me. for what it's worth

"And I've bounced arrows off shoulder blades at 15 yards." i bet that was a bad day..

Agreed Lord Ben,
I've been on the same argument now and then about it as well. Even as far as to pull in inertia and energy.

basically the way the damage is written is such that a bow pulled by the worlds strongest natural man. ie strength 6 will carry nearly as much energy as a 600 nitro express; roughly 7,500 ft/lbs.
Insanity!

Nevermind that arrow speeds are a result of material reflex speed not draw strength.

Even proven in several old threads.
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...=20745&st=0

There are other threads that do it more justice.

My thoughts? are either to cap the damage and/or do the standard str/2 damage rating.

I just leave it be. Bows don't have autofire, so they won't outdo an HMG loading APDS any time soon.

To me, that is like statting a .22 holdout pistol at 8P, and saying it's OK because it takes 2 hours to reload.

There is a difference between "Won't destroy your game" and "OK".

My case for Str/2+X is that bows are the only muscle powered weapon in the game that do Str+X damage.

I've houseruled in my campaign that Bows do (STR/2)+3 Damage. This has worked very well and balances the higher strength possibilities.

Given the way other projectile weapons work, I think that Str+2 was really a mistake. It clearly wasn't a typo because they repeated it in Arsenal and haven't done an errata. But if you have a str 15 bow, it does 17P... Technically, if you shot someone with that, they should EXPLODE. But people can't explode from bow shots. You can be a strong motherfucker, but no matter how strong you are I don't think your arrows can make a mockery out of a high velocity explosive projectile (assault cannon round). Sure, arrows have less penetrative power, but the real money stat in this game is DV. DV10 -5AP requires 35 soak dice to absorb, while DV17 requires 51.

Now, I agree with what's been said earlier -- it's just single shot, so it's not going to totally break the game. The question is: do you want a bow to destroy armored cars or not in your game? If not, I think STR/2+2, or maybe +3 is reasonable. That way a bow fired from a strong person (str6) will have 5-6 DV, which is comparable to a gun, which is pretty reasonable for how much damage a bow can do to you in real life. And a superhuman level bow with strength req 16 would do 10-11P, which is still a hell of a lot. More than most sniper rifles...

many high powered weapons (depending on ammo do not explode but "blow through". I'm not saying this is exactly "it" or whatever but maybe think of it this way. The more 'focused force' behind an arrow, (which is part of the deal with compound bows, is to make the push come through evenly instead of an explosion of thrust which could make it veer wildly) they are moving faster, and being razorsharp they shoot through the body, the way some rifles do. The arrow rips through doing damage as it leaves the body, you now have open entry and exit wounds. I can't remember off hand but do some arrows spin when they fly? I forget.

Yeah, arrows generally spin with they fly. I think they might also flex longitudinally, but I forget.

Regardless, DV17 just doesn't make sense. An Ex Explosive round from a Barret would make a person's head go "pop!" like a ripe watermelon. You'd be hard pressed to find what was left of their skull. How on gawd's green earth could an arrow do MORE than that? Sure an arrow fired from a trollbow should be able to rip someone open, but using a str/2 mechanic, it totally would. Arrows may do more damage than guns in some cases, less in other cases, but I think "about the same" is about right for game balance purposes. I don't think there's any cogent argument that arrows, from a realism point of view, ought to blow guns out of the water.

Now, I'm the last person to advocate for realism in the rules, but I have my limits. Anti-tank arrows (which don't even have self sharpening depleted uranium tips or anything) is just beyond the pale.

I'm pretty sure I've advocated the opposite position before, saying essentially "It's a worse rate of fire than single shot, so no big deal." I still think that's a relevant point for game balance terms; I'm not trying to say that bows are too powerful or too broken, but on reconsideration they just make me scratch my head and go "wtf?"

On a similar note I noticed that injection arrows are almost useless. For an injection arrow to "inject" it has to damage. Fine. It also uses the same damage as the bow. Not fine. Most characters who would use injection arrows are some kind of bow specialist, or at least rather good with them. So what good is the injection if the mechanism that it requires to work kills the target in one hit. In my experience most of the useful toxins that one would load into an injection arrow would be wasted if the arrow took the target down before the toxin had a chance to kick in.

And even though I am a big Green Arrow fan I still believe bows are overpowered. Even G.A. cannot fire a regular arrow through the engine of a car. After reading as many G.A. books as I have I think str/2+2 or str/2+3 is an appropriate damage code. I realize comics are not the most realistic source for weapon baselines but neither is Shadowrun. If your troll REALLY wants to take out cars with his bow have him fire specially made tungsten arrows or explosive arrows or something.

Just my 0.02

Exactly.

As I have said before, in old SR everything was base strength as the power. Moving to SR4 every strength based weapon underwent the str/2 mechanic Except the bow. Odd doncha' think.

If you're having issues with the concept of the arrows blowing out tanks, just link arrow cost to bow strength. 200 nuyen for a self-sharpening depleted whateverium arrow should be entertaining.

In all honesty, if I'd ever had a bow cause an actual problem in-game, I'd be looking at modifying them. But when you compare the point and ability cost of making a bowman with damage output in the ranges people are worrying about to the point and ability cost of, say, teaching someone to use an AV Rocket Launcher, it's never really been an issue.

Bows aren't really "muscle powered" the same way that a melee weapon is. They're spring powered, and that spring is loaded up by applying muscle to it. When you start figuring in compound bows with pulleys, materials science in 2070, and all that other good stuff, arguing that it should use the same curve as a thrown knife for figuring out how much damage it does seems a bit off.

You beat me to this, but I was going to mention that as well. The bow is a machine more than a sword or dagger. There's alot more power coming out of it than has to be put into it, everything on a sword or club is just the power you put into it (+/- effects of gravity/wind resistance). A bow is springs and pullies and tension which help to control the force put into it. Then there is the point of force a sword or club spreads out the damage over the length of the weapon, and arrow focuses it all into the point.

For that point (focused power), I'd see bows better off doing STR DV with -2 AP, they're still just as likely to puncture vehicles, but they are (slightly) less likely to blow up on impact. Reduces the dice necessary to resist the damage by 4.

That's a good point. IMHO though, nobody is ever going to bother with a bow unless they're an uber strong character planning to weild a rating 12+ bow. So the minute anyone starts looking at bows is the minute the problem will crop up. I submit that it is highly highly unlikely that someone with normal strength will decide to make bows their primary weapon



I think you're right, insofar as justifying why bows are not str/2. Though I think it's kinda dumb how a compound bow has the same str:damage ratio as a traditional wooden bow. The compound is definitely much more of a machine than a longbow, it requires less arm strength for more punch. Regardless, I am not someone who thinks rule symmetry is important. Some people seem to follow the non sequitur that if one thing works like x, so should another related thing. That is sometimes true, but it really doesn't follow that just because melee and throwing weapons are str/2, so are bows.

The only reason why bows should do STR/2 IMO is because it would bring their power more in line with what's sane.

If you keep them as STR+X, I would simply limit the rating. There is a point where you can't get limbs that are both strong enough and flexible enough to provide the power you want but still be bendable enough to draw back. There is also an issue with a string that is strong enough, yet thin enough to allow a smooth pullback and release. And the wheels... there's probably a thing with them too >.> I would just set the rating at a limit of 10. That would leave bows very powerful, but not quite as nuts. My justification would be that the materials do not exist to create a bow with a higher rating.

I like the STR/2 + 3 idea better though. It feels less like bullshit

True, you are not actually pushing the arrow. You are infact flexing a material whos reflex action/ speed launches the arrow. That material reflex speed is what causes the velocity or the arrow, that with the grain weight of the arrow = energy. Now the strength of the pull affects the weight that can be pushed, not the speed.

I just ran a calculation based on an assumption the the PJSS Elephant rifle is roughly equal to the current: 900 grain, 600 Nitro Express pushing 7,700 ft, lbs of energy.

Based on modern materials and velocities in order to equal the energy of the above piece you would have to launch a 38,538 grain arrow (roughly 5.5 lbs) at 300 ft per second. A 8500% increase in arrow weight from the below 'standard' arrow.

Considering that modern hunting arrows are around 450 grains roughly 0.064 lbs you can see the insane weight difference.

If you want to throw future tech in there and say they have managed to create a material that increases reflex speed by 50% (over fiberglass/ carbon fiber i believe, though I could be wrong). Launching missles at 450 feet per second. The arrow would still run about 17,127 grains (roughly 2.45 lbs) each or 3800% increase in arrow weight.


Now the numbers can obviously prove what is required, velocity and mass of the projectile. Again however this is a relatively slow projectile it will not cause the massive damage of a high velocity bullet.

As I posted in another thread, a 30 lb bow will launch an arrow clean through a deer. 70 lbs will just push it through with more energy left. Or rather allows for less perfect releases to perform since they have more 'spare' energy to lose.


Quick thread if you want to crunch numbers yourself:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muzzle_energy




EDIT:
Forgot to add, the PJSS is 9dv? A natural human can reach 8DV with a bow. 9DV if you give him a uber super duper strength attribute.

That isnt counting the races that are stronger naturally, dont forget the Orc or Dwarf as well as the troll.
And If I could find the energy conversion for 17DV you can imagine the weight of the arrow...roughly 17/9=1.88x5.5 lbs = 10.34 lb projectile... yup, 2 sacks of sugar.

Well, we have been referring to our Troll Archer Adept's 'Arrows' as meter long shafts of sharpened steel... Say 1cm radius, and a mid density steel (8 gm/cm^3), gives 2.5kg...

Gah, why can't you use SI units like a sane person.... I guess I'll work out target energy and required material properties later, though, something is telling me that you may be wrong on required material properties, as it should be possible to arrange the pulleys as a velocity multiplier.

I had a G.A. thought, if this bit-o-logic works like I originally thought.
Given G.A. can fashion an arrow that has zero drag and wind resistance but manages to dump all its energy onto your body at one time. All of it at the same time... all over the front side of you.

Give G.A. can pull and fire a 17DV bow (G.A. is a strong troll in this case I suppose).

Based on those numbers I gave above, the 10.34 lb arrow flying at 300 fps would dump 14,476 ft-lbs of energy on you. Lets say you are *roughly* 6'x2' of surface on one side. thats 12 sq.ft.

If the above is all true, then you would experience 1,206 lbs of force per each frontal square foot you were hit. I am not quite sure what that would do exactly, but I imagine it would be similiar to either a Permenant Turn to Goo spell or a Gallagher watermelon.

heheh SI!

I'm an Architect, in the USA its all about Foot and Inches or Decimal Feet! Though I did have the option to take my exams in SI. I don't think I could get the hang of a 3' door being 914.4 mm. o_O

It could be regarding the velocity multiplier, but alas until we actually have someone in the bow manufacture/ engineering industry we may never know exactly what really makes sense.

Rambo 3.

Awesome, good enough for me!

That's what i say.
And since there's tons of weapons that don't do as much, but still tremendous damage, fire twice per round, are more easily available, don't require you to be a troll and max out your strenght and whatnot, that's enough for me not to change the DV of bows.

But then, i don't care that much about realism in my game either (which is always useful for playing SR, BTW).

On further research, arrow velocity (for a properly constructed compound bow) should be dependent on peek draw strength times draw length (with a factor for efficiency since draw strength is probably actually a curve). Material reflex can be factored out by giving the arrow a mechanical advantage and increasing the spring's (stave's) strength. Specifically, if you have a 200 fold advantage, the stave would be moving 1cm (or with some pulley tricks I can see in my head, a bit further to allow the stave itself to accelerate and for a lighter hold strength) for the draw moving 2m. Of course, at that point your 'stave' may look more like a tower shield...


Given a draw of 2m and an arrow mass 5kg, with a goal velocity of 90m/s (which, if I haven't screwed things up should be around the energy you were suggesting was required), the force curve needs to average draw strength of 10125 newtons...

That would be equivalent to holding 1 tonne mass, which seems reasonable for a high strength troll.

Additionally, based on clay block tests I've seen video of, it may be inappropriate to equate damage with energy, as a slower slug may do significantly more damage (clay block blown apart, along with slug) than a much faster, higher energy slug (small hole in clay block, slug embedded in something else down range). Due to the abstract nature of the system, I'm not sure it's reasonable to base this on the DV of any particular bullet/gun combination.

Of course, now I've lost the part where you specify what DV you were guessing the required energy for...

I am rather new about these parts, but I've encountered the same 'problem' with bows. Big ass troll with a 12 strength lobbing ballista bolts through the meatbags my NPC's all turned out to be.

How I am planning on mitigating this:
Remembering that arrows use impact armor.
Throw an arrow slapping physad or two at the group every once and a while, your would be archer becomes completely useless on any Missile Parrying physad.
Wind modifiers and other out of door conditions (Go on, shoot an arrow at the helicopter!
Also increasing the cost of and the availability of arrows sturdy enough and big enough for the bow.
Bows are awkward as hell to carry around and rough to conceal.
To string one is a complex action. I do allow him to quick draw his arrows because it does make sense, but I give the bow a recoil rating of 3 per arrow to represent the complicated muscular action that it takes from the recovery of an arrow's shot. On any critical glitch his bowstring is gonna snap. Gonna take abut a minute to put the new one on, and I doubt anyone is going to carry around 2 bows.

Also, I was considering the enforcement of the rule of 'Nothing higher then rating 6' equipment rules to bows. I may do so the next time another player tries to bring in another Uruk'hai(SP?) troll bowman!
Other then that I like the rules as they stand. The presence of bows in the game is a positive one, I think. That way you can have cool elven archer physads that can keep up with the performance of your machinegun wielding samurai.
No problem to big. Remember that although the books do dictate the damage effects of his bow quite clearly, you dictate the effects of the rest of the world.

Not in SR4!

I think it's bad to tell a character "You are too good, you are now nerfed."

Here are the things you should remember, IMO:

A trollbow makes an incredibly loud CRACK! that is at least as loud as a gunshot, and can't be silenced.
Samurai with tricked out gymnastics pools will easily flip out and dodge the troll's one arrow per Action Phase.
Spirits have immunity to normal weapons, which can completely ignore those arrows at high enough force.
Vehicles have hardened armor, which can also be immune to the arrows.

On your points:
Arrows don't use impact armor in SR4, but that's good if you want them to be weaker, impact is almost always less than ballistic.
Missile parry is a good idea.
Wind modifiers are not part of the system IMO. Wind messes up a gun at range, maybe not as much as an arrow, but the system just does not account for wind.
People can very easily make arrows with a toolkit sized set of equipment. I think no matter their size or shape, they would be pretty easy to custom order.
Yes, bows are awkward to carry and conceal, but Arsenal has a collapsible bow in it.
For compound bows, you don't have to string them...
I wouldn't allow a quickdraw without the quickdraw adept power, or the iajutsu manuever from Arsenal. That's what those things are for.
Finally a string snapping on a mega troll bow is not like "uh oh, broken string." It's like WHIP! CRACK! "My eye!!!" Bow strings, especially compound bow strings, do not tend to break in real life, but if they do you could get hurt. Though I guess a troll critically glitching could be so strong that he just draws too hard and snaps his bow in half...

Troll bows have been around for years. We just used to call 'em ballistas. Materials science has progressed to the point that we can make a "bow" that will withstand the pull required to sling something that heavy that fast, and people science (IE, trolls with 17 Strength) has progressed so we don't need a pulley or winch to wind up our siege weapon any more, just something that can apply enough force to the bow to make it bend back all the way (like a Str 17 troll).

I don't really have an issue with this. Arrows for a Str 17 bow are bigger, is all.

I really don't get the hangup on Troll bowmen. It seems the 'balance factor' argument is always "yeah the bow is friggan huge, it ok!"

Ever think of the opposite side of the spectrum?

Dwarf bowmen, 4ft tall and can push out 14 strength with exception attribute and maxed ware or magic.
Are you saying its is all good and dandy because the 4' dwarf can carry a nearly full sized troll bow? Or are the stunties shafted.

Point being, this bow issue always surrounds trolls, stating that the bow size is a balance factor. It isn't and never will be.

1st point, Larme even stated the folding bow, obviously that isn't huge.
2nd point, a maxed dwarf can use a str 14 bow, that won't be huge, unless you just ignore the size for them. (if you ignore it, then it isnt a balance factor now is it.)


Last point,
Snapping a string on a RL normal bow will put an eye out.
Snapping a cable on a ton of force (assuming Grymor is correct) will take your head smooth the fuck off.

Also I don't see why you couldn't build a fuckoff powerful crossbow that does 18P. Really, what's the point of having a ridiculously expensive Armorer Facility otherwise?

"Hey, I made my own bullets; they're practically untraceable!"

"Um yeah, we don't have identities actually."

You want to build a trollbow into a crossbow by putting a winch and an autofeed on it? Be my guest. Wonder how long it'd take to winch that thing back...

I've been reading the discussion about trolls with bows in the "obvious rules problems" thread, and Here's my shot at some rules of thumb:

First some facts: let's assume that technology in 2070, when applied to bows, is good enough that a regular bow can be compared to the very best craftsmanship the medieval world had to offer.

Wikipedia's article on the English Longbow states that the bow's maximum range was around 165 to 228 m. (Keep in mind that this was only useful when there were hundreds/thousands of bowmen firing at hundreds/thousands of massed targets - they didn't have much accuracy at ALL at this range)

The extreme range of the bow in SR4 (STRx60) for a character with STR 4 (an unmodified human who has undergone strength training to maximize his usefulness with a bow) is 240m, which isn't -too- far off the mark, especially since an English Longbow was made of wood. In 2070, the likelihood of improvement is high.

A bow does not shoot straight at long distances; eventually you have to aim upwards and hit the target at the end of a parobolic arc.

An English Longbow in the hands of a man strong enough to pull it could punch an arrow through thick chain armor at a distance (on the end of a parabolic arc).


These Facts in Game Terms:
A Troll with str 15 and a bow made custom for him would of course have that mind-boggling 17P DV. The effects of a 17P DV are NOT as unrealistic as most people seem to think. That arrowhead could DEFINITELY punch through almost anything in it's way.

At short range, 15 m in this case, the arrow will travel pretty much straight like a bullet. Medium range, "To STRx10" (16 to 150 m), the necessity of that parabolic arc starts to kick in, if only incrementally. Then at Long range, "To STRx30" (151 to 450m), which starts within the realistic range of this bow but jumps WIDELY out into crazy-land, that parabolic arc would be really pronounced. EXTREME range of 900m is just... unspeakable.


My Proposed House-Rule Solutions to:

1) The "an arrow can't go through a car engine and hit someone." statement: Of course it can't.

Even if it has the velocity behind it with 17P, it would ricochet off in the wrong direction and damage the engine severely; not pass through in a straight line.

I would say you can't aim at somebody through the engine of a vehicle anyway; you would aim at him through a window, unless you couldn't see him, and then that's a blind-fire -6 to attack. As far as shooting through a barrier, the thing about arrows is that they are long, and have a lot of drag going through thick obstructions (hence why they get stuck in a haystack; an arrowhead can go clean through sheet metal with a str 15 draw, but once it's through, the shaft is likely to stick, so it wouldn't go FAR through);

Solution: As GM you can just say "the arrow gets lodged in the barrier and doesn't hit the rigger," or "the arrow dents the tank's armor, but that's all" and glare at your players if they try to argue. (Feel free to hit them with your hardcover SR4 rulebook if glaring doesn't work).

2) The "That thing has enough power to make the person it hit EXPLODE" statement. Well, no. A bullet can bounce around in the body cavity and cause a lot of damage within the target; an explosive projectile can do the same by..well..exploding. But an arrow is going to make a (relatively) clean path through the target.

Solution: Don't let the arrow do more than the target's BODY*2 + Net Hits damage on the attack.

If there's still more DV left over, the arrow went through the target. If your player says "but I should do 17P damage!" then tell him he does the remaining damage to whatever is immediately behind his target. (Judicious use of the GM glare, GM "intimidating eyebrow raise and pretend note-taking behind the GM screen" or throttling the player with your SR4 rulebook is encouraged if he resists)

Alternately if there is still DV left over, you could use the Serious Injury (did i remember that right?) rules from Augmentation's Advanced Medtech section. I think I saw something in there about impalement.

3) The "That guy is a TANK KILLER!" complaint: Arrows can't do much to vehicles themselves except maybe muck up the engine. Lodge the arrow in the side of the vehicle or let it pass through (depending on it's armor and how strong our Troll is) ; either way, it's not going to seriously harm the tank. Sometimes #'s just have to be thrown out to make way for common sense. If the arrow hits the engine, with a few net hits, let the engine stall. If they make a critical success firing at the vehicle, have a fuel tank explode, or actually let the player hit a driver/passenger that wouldn't normally be targetable.

Also take into account that really HARD substances (like Titanium or Stainless Steel, or the hardest, Diamond) are very BRITTLE and will shatter. Really TOUGH substances (which are more flexible and won't shatter, but will deform easily, like lead or a soft high-carbon steel) would just smush against a tank's armor and bounce away. That's why anti-tank weapons use explosives, for the most part. Don't let your player argue that his arrow is made of Titanium or has Diamond tips or anything like that.

Now, a monofilament-bladed arrowhead made of buckycarbon with an explosive payload behind it... creativity (and a ton of extra nuyen) deserve success.

4) The crazy range thing:
These modifications seem fairly realistic:

Short Range (+0) remains 0 to Strength;
Medium Range (-1) remains To STRx10, but also add +1 to AP
Long Range remains To STRx30, but double the Range modifier to -4.
Extreme Range remains STRx60, but increase the range modifier to -9
Any range of over 240m is an automatic Long Shot, regardless of what the range table says.
- The player may state his case if he has some way of calculating the parabolic arc of the arrow perfectly and taking into account wind messing the whole thing up, but if he hasn't role-played it all along, use your hardcover SR4 Bludgeon to show him who's boss.

This would mean a human with str 4 would be able to fire a custom bow at an extreme range of 240 meters (well over two football fields) with a -9 to his attack roll; if we assume he's got an Agility of 4, and 6 in Bows (because he's awesome), he still gets to roll 1 die, before adding any edge dice or positive modifiers from gear. That's quite generous, as in real life he'd be hard pressed to hit a specific house at that range.

But a Troll with STR 15 would be able to fire the bow only to the extreme range of 240m as well.

The bow will almost definitely be able to fire the arrow 900m, but the troll could never hit an intended target. Rather than rolling to hit if the range were further than 240, I'd say open up a phonebook, close your eyes and point, and whatever name you're pointing at is the name of a random unlucky NPC that got nailed. Maybe use a vengeful loved one as an adversary in a later session, trying to track down who fired that stray arrow

--------------------
What do you guys think?

These are how I houseruled bows and arrows:

Bows: The new stats I will use for bows is as follows-
Traditional Bow ;(STR Min/2+3)P ;8 ;STR Min ;100x STR Min
Compound Bow ;(STR Min/2+4)P ;None ;2x STR Min ;25x STR Min x STR Min
Arrow ;as bow ;N/A ;as bow ;5x STR Min
;Damage ;Max STR Min ;Availability ;Cost