So I was fooling around and couldn't resist posting the following...a highly maneuverable, highly camouflaged weapon platform. The rules don't address the issue, so I presume the overall availability to be the same as that of the least available component.
By the way, does anybody know how to raise sensor rating? I can't find it.
Entertainment Systems Cyclops Monocycle, modified
Handling: +3, Accel: 15/25, Speed: 100, Pilot: 1, Body: 4, Armor: 8, Sensor: 1, Signature: +1, Avail: 12R, Cost: 25k
Standard Upgrades: Assembly Time Improvement, Motorcycle Gyro Stabilization
Upgrades: Rigger Adaptation, Normal External Fixed Weapon Mount, Chameleon Coating, Extra Armor (6 additional points)
Full Version: The Cyclops GunWheel
You raise the Sensor rating by upgrading all the individual components of the Sensor Package to the next highest Rating (all components are assumed to come at the listed Vehicle Sensor Rating). Yet another one for the FAQ.
What does a rating 2 (or 5 for that matter) camera cost, then ?
That's the problem with the rule from Arsenal - it doesn't work out with the BBB Sensor Rules, both Vehicle and Package:
The whole 'upgrade all' doesn't work as the Sensor Attribute is replacing Intuition for Perception Tests... especially for Sensors that got no Rating. (And the Enhancements are not Sensor Ratings - they add to Perception Tests.)
Of course, you always could yank out whatever gives an Emotitoy a Sensor 3 and install it...
The whole 'upgrade all' doesn't work as the Sensor Attribute is replacing Intuition for Perception Tests... especially for Sensors that got no Rating. (And the Enhancements are not Sensor Ratings - they add to Perception Tests.)
Of course, you always could yank out whatever gives an Emotitoy a Sensor 3 and install it...
QUOTE (Synner @ Mar 23 2008, 05:40 PM) 
You raise the Sensor rating by upgrading all the individual components of the Sensor Package to the next highest Rating (all components are assumed to come at the listed Vehicle Sensor Rating). Yet another one for the FAQ.
QUOTE
• Atmosphere Sensor (taking up 1 Capacity)
• 2 Cameras (front and back, taking up 2 Capacity)
• 2 Laser Range Finders (front and back, taking up 2 Capacity)
• 2 Motion Sensors (front and back, taking up 2 Capacity)
• Radar (taking up 5 Capacity
• 2 Cameras (front and back, taking up 2 Capacity)
• 2 Laser Range Finders (front and back, taking up 2 Capacity)
• 2 Motion Sensors (front and back, taking up 2 Capacity)
• Radar (taking up 5 Capacity
So Synner you are saying that if the cyclops has a sensor rating 1 all the above quoted items are rating 1? So a Cyclops has a signal rating 1 Radar with a range of 40m?
Or he can buy the improved sensor package at 1,000 and get a signal rating of 6 which means the radar has a range of 10 km.
WMS
...I was thinking of arming up one of those Horizon-Doble Revolutions for Violet. It already has Stabilisation and Smart Tyre technology standard, & has decent base armour & better sensor package, along with the same handling mod as the Cyclops.
QUOTE (WearzManySkins @ Mar 23 2008, 11:18 PM)
So Synner you are saying that if the cyclops has a sensor rating 1 all the above quoted items are rating 1? So a Cyclops has a signal rating 1 Radar with a range of 40m?
The short answer is that, yes, it would mean that the individual sensor in the Cyclops default sensor package are Rating 1.
The long version to quote from another thread:
QUOTE
The rule as of Arsenal is that when making general Sensor Tests (such as when Targeting) you use the Vehicle's Sensor Rating.
Though it is not explicit, and will warrant a FAQ, this assumes that the Rating of all individual sensors (in the Vehicle's default Sensor Package) is equal to the Vehicle's Sensor Rating. "If a character improves the ratings of all of the individual components in a sensor package, the overall Sensor rating of the vehicle should also be improved accordingly" (p.105, Arsenal) - yes, this means your Vehicle's default Sensor Rating might be equal to the lowest Rating among your modified sensors. Characters engaging in any "normal" use of Sensors, including in Combat, are assumed to be using the combined feed from the entire sensor package/array to provide location, range, tracking, motion compensation, and targeting solutions.
Per the rule on p.105, the option is left to the gamemaster to allow in specific circumstances the use of an individual sensor rather than the complete package/suite. This option is not intended for Combat since anyone of those single sensors would be hardpressed to provide a complete targeting resolution; but rather it is aimed at allowing the pilot/rigger the use of cameras, microphones, ultrawideband radar or even radar for the specific functions they are designed for (something which might be useful if that particular sensor is higher rated than the remaining ones, or if you simply want to film or record a conversation with the vehicle mounted cam or mike).
I understand this will require further clarification, particularly as regards Combat, but that is the ruling as of Arsenal. And yes, there is an inconsistency in that you can strip your array down to a Rating 6 Radar and say that your Vehicle Sensor (the only one) is now Rating 6. This was noted, unfortunately too late to modify in the first printing, but will likely feature in the first errata. Though I can't confirm at the moment the ammendment will like require that a Vehicle/Drone Sensor package include at least 1 Camera, 1 Laser Range Finder, 1 Motion Sensor, and Radar.
Though it is not explicit, and will warrant a FAQ, this assumes that the Rating of all individual sensors (in the Vehicle's default Sensor Package) is equal to the Vehicle's Sensor Rating. "If a character improves the ratings of all of the individual components in a sensor package, the overall Sensor rating of the vehicle should also be improved accordingly" (p.105, Arsenal) - yes, this means your Vehicle's default Sensor Rating might be equal to the lowest Rating among your modified sensors. Characters engaging in any "normal" use of Sensors, including in Combat, are assumed to be using the combined feed from the entire sensor package/array to provide location, range, tracking, motion compensation, and targeting solutions.
Per the rule on p.105, the option is left to the gamemaster to allow in specific circumstances the use of an individual sensor rather than the complete package/suite. This option is not intended for Combat since anyone of those single sensors would be hardpressed to provide a complete targeting resolution; but rather it is aimed at allowing the pilot/rigger the use of cameras, microphones, ultrawideband radar or even radar for the specific functions they are designed for (something which might be useful if that particular sensor is higher rated than the remaining ones, or if you simply want to film or record a conversation with the vehicle mounted cam or mike).
I understand this will require further clarification, particularly as regards Combat, but that is the ruling as of Arsenal. And yes, there is an inconsistency in that you can strip your array down to a Rating 6 Radar and say that your Vehicle Sensor (the only one) is now Rating 6. This was noted, unfortunately too late to modify in the first printing, but will likely feature in the first errata. Though I can't confirm at the moment the ammendment will like require that a Vehicle/Drone Sensor package include at least 1 Camera, 1 Laser Range Finder, 1 Motion Sensor, and Radar.
@Synner
Of the list of sensor installed as a package, only two can be upgraded, ie the radar and the atmospheric sensor but the Atmo Sensor can only go to a 3.
Radar can go all the way up to a 6.
Cameras have no rating to upgrade, yes you can add vision enhancements, how many vision enhancements does it take to bring up in sensor value?
Laser Range Finders again no rating to upgrade. Also not needed, if you have a radar system installed it can give you range values to the vehicle in front of your vehicle.
Motion Sensors again no rating to upgrade.
Radar can be upgraded to a 6.
So in a nutshell the only sensor that can be upgraded above the installed package value is Radar. You can buy a Radar rating 6 for 1,200 or buy the improved sensor upgrade mod at 1,000. Which would you buy?
Also where is LIDAR?
WMS
Of the list of sensor installed as a package, only two can be upgraded, ie the radar and the atmospheric sensor but the Atmo Sensor can only go to a 3.
Radar can go all the way up to a 6.
Cameras have no rating to upgrade, yes you can add vision enhancements, how many vision enhancements does it take to bring up in sensor value?
Laser Range Finders again no rating to upgrade. Also not needed, if you have a radar system installed it can give you range values to the vehicle in front of your vehicle.
Motion Sensors again no rating to upgrade.
Radar can be upgraded to a 6.
So in a nutshell the only sensor that can be upgraded above the installed package value is Radar. You can buy a Radar rating 6 for 1,200 or buy the improved sensor upgrade mod at 1,000. Which would you buy?
Also where is LIDAR?
WMS
The missing ratings will be addressed in upcoming Errata for both Arsenal and SR4. Depending on what the exact tweaks are prices may be adjusted, but for now assume Rating x current price.
QUOTE (Synner @ Mar 23 2008, 08:43 PM)
The missing ratings will be addressed in upcoming Errata for both Arsenal and SR4.
So that means the following will have ratings?
Cameras
Laser Range Finders
Motion Sensors
Atmospheric Sensor will be expanded beyond rating 3?
Or just some of them?
WMS
QUOTE (WearzManySkins @ Mar 24 2008, 02:38 AM)
So in a nutshell the only sensor that can be upgraded above the installed package value is Radar. You can buy a Radar rating 6 for 1,200 or buy the improved sensor upgrade mod at 1,000. Which would you buy?
Size does not matter, technique does.
Improved sensor array does give you more capacity points, and possibly signal. No change in sensor rating.
QUOTE (Ryu @ Mar 23 2008, 09:07 PM)
Size does not matter, technique does.
Improved sensor array does give you more capacity points, and possibly signal. No change in sensor rating.
Improved sensor array does give you more capacity points, and possibly signal. No change in sensor rating.
Sensor rating equals range ip so facto Signal, Sensor is a term used to describe a abstract device rating at least in SR4.
WMS
QUOTE (Synner @ Mar 24 2008, 02:43 AM)
The missing ratings will be addressed in upcoming Errata for both Arsenal and SR4. Depending on what the exact tweaks are prices may be adjusted, but for now assume Rating x current price.
Wouldn't it be easier to simply state: "Upgrading the Sensor Attribute of a vehicle follows the same Rules as upgrading its Signal Attribute" or something like that and skip on this 'upgrade all ratings' thing?
As it is now, the Sensor Package Rulesfrom the main book worked quite fine, even with vehicles... it's just that there was no way to upgrade the Sensor Attribute of vehicles/drones.
Is it really necessary to change all that? What would be the stand-alone benefit of a Rating 3 Camera instead of a rating-less?
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Mar 24 2008, 05:48 AM)
Wouldn't it be easier to simply state: "Upgrading the Sensor Attribute of a vehicle follows the same Rules as upgrading its Signal Attribute" or something like that and skip on this 'upgrade all ratings' thing?
As it is now, the Sensor Package Rulesfrom the main book worked quite fine, even with vehicles... it's just that there was no way to upgrade the Sensor Attribute of vehicles/drones.
Is it really necessary to change all that? What would be the stand-alone benefit of a Rating 3 Camera instead of a rating-less?
As it is now, the Sensor Package Rulesfrom the main book worked quite fine, even with vehicles... it's just that there was no way to upgrade the Sensor Attribute of vehicles/drones.
Is it really necessary to change all that? What would be the stand-alone benefit of a Rating 3 Camera instead of a rating-less?
Here is a quote from the Calling Out Hermit Thread
Synner
QUOTE
Ratings in cameras and audio recievers will likely reflect the number of enhancements that can be plugged in to the basic system (and the sophistication of the cameras underlying software/firmware and other functionalities) rather than simple quality. Depending on the sensor some ratings will likely affect range/signal and others function. The exact tweaks are still under discussion.
WMS
Uh... so it's pretty much a total rewrite of the Sensor rules to match with Cybereye/ears rules?
It would be nice if that actually carries over to goggles and contacts... not to mention the fire-arm-mod rules for smartlink-cameras.
It would be nice if that actually carries over to goggles and contacts... not to mention the fire-arm-mod rules for smartlink-cameras.
QUOTE
Wouldn't it be easier to simply state: "Upgrading the Sensor Attribute of a vehicle follows the same Rules as upgrading its Signal Attribute" or something like that and skip on this 'upgrade all ratings' thing?
Yes, it would.
That is why its another option that we will be discussing before making a decision. On the surface it is the easiest solution—the reason its being discussed is that the other solution presents the option to streamline several mechanics/systems. Each has its advantages and disadvantages. As previously noted, this will be resolved - one way or another -in the next round of errata.
QUOTE ( @ Mar 24 2008, 12:57 PM)
Uh... so it's pretty much a total rewrite of the Sensor rules to match with Cybereye/ears rules?
A total rewrite wouldn't be necessary. All this would entail is adding Rating scales to certain item entries and a line to the general Sensors intro to the effect that:
"Unless specifically stated in the decription, Rating represents the Signal Rating of the individual sensor."
And then adding to cameras (audio receptors and a few others):
"Rather than Signal, the Rating of cameras (or whatever) dictates the maximum number of enhancements the sensor can take."
QUOTE
It would be nice if that actually carries over to goggles and contacts... not to mention the fire-arm-mod rules for smartlink-cameras.
That is one of the reasons "Option 2" is even under consideration rather than the easy solution. Personally I'm leaning to towards something of the sort.
Thanks for the info, Synner.
The thing is, using the rating of a Sensor to determine dice-pool may be easy, but sometimes creates the issue what is rolled in a given situation. Of course, most of that can be explained away with 'it comes with it's special Sensor software'.
Example:
Cyberware Scanner, rating 1-6, using the Cyberware Scanner Table with it's Device Rating. No Problem here... it says that the Sensor has it's own integrated database-software, looking for matches... pretty much like the generel purpose Sensor softs.
Enter Ultrawideband Radar Sensor, rating 1-4... with a Signal rating of 2 (can that be upgrade?) and the Rating is used for Barrier penetration - the Sensor itself has no database, yet can perform like the Cyberware Scanner. Does it roll it's rating? Or does it need a Sensor Software? At the same time it is a vision mode with the same modifiers as Ultrasound... allowing you to use it for Perception Tests, spotting hidden stuff as per usual rules... and as it pierces through metahumans fairly easily, you could actually see implants.
Personally, I'd seperate in general Hardware (Rating describing how far a sensor reaches, how many upgrades it can take) and Software (may it be character rolling Perception+Intition, vehicles rolling Clearsight+Sensor or the standalone Sensor Software, no matter if included database or general purpose)... and if more than one 'Software' applies, treat it as a Teamwork Test.
The thing is, using the rating of a Sensor to determine dice-pool may be easy, but sometimes creates the issue what is rolled in a given situation. Of course, most of that can be explained away with 'it comes with it's special Sensor software'.
Example:
Cyberware Scanner, rating 1-6, using the Cyberware Scanner Table with it's Device Rating. No Problem here... it says that the Sensor has it's own integrated database-software, looking for matches... pretty much like the generel purpose Sensor softs.
Enter Ultrawideband Radar Sensor, rating 1-4... with a Signal rating of 2 (can that be upgrade?) and the Rating is used for Barrier penetration - the Sensor itself has no database, yet can perform like the Cyberware Scanner. Does it roll it's rating? Or does it need a Sensor Software? At the same time it is a vision mode with the same modifiers as Ultrasound... allowing you to use it for Perception Tests, spotting hidden stuff as per usual rules... and as it pierces through metahumans fairly easily, you could actually see implants.
Personally, I'd seperate in general Hardware (Rating describing how far a sensor reaches, how many upgrades it can take) and Software (may it be character rolling Perception+Intition, vehicles rolling Clearsight+Sensor or the standalone Sensor Software, no matter if included database or general purpose)... and if more than one 'Software' applies, treat it as a Teamwork Test.
QUOTE (WearzManySkins @ Mar 24 2008, 03:54 AM)
Sensor rating equals range ip so facto Signal, Sensor is a term used to describe a abstract device rating at least in SR4.
WMS
WMS
No. Sensor rating is not Signal, range depends on the size and not the quality of the sensor suite. Lets limit this discussion to the "Calling Out Hermit" thread, if there is interest.
This is hopelessly complicated and lacks playability. A simple solution would be to say that Sensors cost Y x rating. When using sensors, roll Sensors + Perception, and get the same information back as a Perception test would give you, out to LOS for visual and within the same audio range as Mk. 1 ears.
The range is LOS for visual because otherwise, it would become very difficult to remotely control a Mercury Comet sedan, for example, traveling 125 kmph, if the car can't see anything more than 40m ahead of it. You'd be crashing into things all the time - especially if those things were coming straight at you at 125 kmph, too.
The range for audio is the same as the Mk. 1 ear because the average vehicle operator doesn't have any need to hear what's going on 100m or more away, the standard commuter car would obsolete every other kind of eavesdropping equipment, and most communities would not like the idea that their neighbors can sit in their Comet in the driveway and listen in to what's going on in their bedroom.
Then offer Geiger counters, atmo sensors, etc., as options on the Sensor package, costing original price x sensor rating to add. Then require special Sensor + Perception tests to use those special sensors.
The range is LOS for visual because otherwise, it would become very difficult to remotely control a Mercury Comet sedan, for example, traveling 125 kmph, if the car can't see anything more than 40m ahead of it. You'd be crashing into things all the time - especially if those things were coming straight at you at 125 kmph, too.
The range for audio is the same as the Mk. 1 ear because the average vehicle operator doesn't have any need to hear what's going on 100m or more away, the standard commuter car would obsolete every other kind of eavesdropping equipment, and most communities would not like the idea that their neighbors can sit in their Comet in the driveway and listen in to what's going on in their bedroom.
Then offer Geiger counters, atmo sensors, etc., as options on the Sensor package, costing original price x sensor rating to add. Then require special Sensor + Perception tests to use those special sensors.
Come to think of it, the sensor test should be Intuition + Perception + Sensor. Supposing the average metahuman has Intuition 3, Perception 3, why would someone looking through a vehicle's sensors lose a third of their Perception pool? When a 100 nuyen camera (SR4 325) offers no penalty to observe through it, why would a very expensive vehicle sensor package? Shouldn't sensors be better than sticking your head out the sunroof? And wouldn't most jurisdictions ban vehicles that relied on sensors that did their jobs so badly and dangerously?
QUOTE (Zen Shooter01 @ Mar 25 2008, 09:29 PM)
Come to think of it, the sensor test should be Intuition + Perception + Sensor. Supposing the average metahuman has Intuition 3, Perception 3, why would someone looking through a vehicle's sensors lose a third of their Perception pool? When a 100 nuyen camera (SR4 325) offers no penalty to observe through it, why would a very expensive vehicle sensor package? Shouldn't sensors be better than sticking your head out the sunroof? And wouldn't most jurisdictions ban vehicles that relied on sensors that did their jobs so badly and dangerously?
Thats my line of thinking. I would use normal perception rules for visual and audio sensors, and assign drones a somewhat useful pool to use them. The low published sensor ratings imply that something comparably unimportant is meant. Auxilliary radar is doing it´s job if it can detect other vehicles, the primary cameras detect metahumans rather easily. A perception pool for drones would also allow them to cope with camera mods, unrated sensor types etc. The low published stats IMO forbid the use of Sensor Rating as Perception.
So my fix would basically say:
- The sensor rating of a vehicle gives the rating of its build-in radar.
- Concerning Perception, Pilots use their Response rating instead, possibly modified by the Clearsight autosoft
- Radar Perception uses the rules of combat chapter.
- The active target aquisition bonus can be used with normal targeting (not sure if this is RAW)
- Sensors stay unchanged, except for motion sensors, which become limited-range radar of rating 1-6.
You might even use the sensor rating of what you're perceiving through as a cap for the amount of intuition dice you can add. After all, interpretation can only go so far, and if it's a really cruddy image, you may not be able to figure it out no matter how hard you think on it. Just not enough data available and all that.
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