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Frag-o Delux
I have seen this debated in other topics but not as a topic it self.

When I started playing SR, I was 14 or so and really didn't know much about technology. The people who showed me how to play said thermo vision could see through small amounts of materials, like cheap walls or windows with blinds or cheap doors. Through out the years of playing I never really looked up the rule to see if it was accurate or canon as gamers say. Since it has always been in the game it doesn't really feel like a broken balance thing, it is just something you have to plan for. Well while reading posts on this board I have seen people say that it is impossible for thermo to see through things even to a small extent ridcule them for thinking it.

Now I ask why is it impossible to for it to happen, mainly in your game?

Also I bring this up since I am watching a show on the History channel, and they just showed a "thermo" device that allows soldiers to see through a lot of things, including a center block wall. They used it to spot a squad of about 5 guys through 800 meters of dense forest. Currently it is a rifle scope and rathe large as far sights go. Why is a thermo sight incapable of seeing through small amounts of material in your SR game.

I don't like saying if it is real then it absolutely must be in SR. But if it does exist in real life our group does like to add to SR, hell we add things we think are possible in 60 years, we read a lot of high tech magazines and such, and sometimes things we feel would be in SR if the developers thought about adding it.
Lilt
There have been some discussions about what I think it was you are talking about. It's called Millimeter-wave radio (part way between IR and Microwave) and it can see through a fair bit of stuff (but not metal or water as they absorb it).

I would probably not allow someone with natural thermo, or even cyber thermo to see through things but I don't think duch devices would be out of the question for goggles or specialised cyberware.

Here's the previous thread. It was in the old forums.
Frag-o Delux
I might be that millimeter wave thing you are talking about but I didn't here then mention that sort of tech. In fact this thing only had lenses, I don't know how the millimeter thing works, but this looked like a regular scope, well a large scope.

Thanks for the link, I have read it. A lot of jokes about cooking people.

But why is it not possible for thermo to see through cheap(thin) material?

From what I know about thermo it uses heat to generate IR "light" that it can "see". Or am I wrong? So why can't your any enemies body heat transferre through a cheap wooden door to allow you to see "through" it.

When we started playing with Thermo, the only info the guys taught me about thermo came from movies so that is the major problem there. But we have always played thermo, like you would see with a colored overlay, like the way the predator saw in the movie.
Lilt
I suppose the best way to see what thermo can see through is to take a thermo camera and point it at someone on the other side of a barrier...
Frag-o Delux
Where can I get one? I don't know if it will fit in my budget this month maybe after the holidays, my birthday is next month maybe then. biggrin.gif
mfb
different materials are transparent to thermo than are to visible light. for instance, if you're relying totally on thermo, you won't be able to see through glass. there are other materials that are transparent--or even reflective--to thermo, that are not to visible light, but you'd have to ask someone like Cray about the specifics.

*sniff* somebody dug up my old thread. heartwarming!
Zazen
When I first started playing, the group had this notion that astral perception could see through walls. Every single room, door, etc that we came upon was inspected and reinspected by the mage, and we spent lots of time planning and double-planning. In the end we'd just bust in and narcoject a couple of guards, but it took a lot of real time to get to that point. We'd spend three sessions on what should have been a one-session run.

So now there's no seeing through walls in my games.
Frag-o Delux
With astral perception you would have to stick your head through the wall while astrally projecting. I never thought astral perception could see through things when I read the rules it says everything on the real plane is on the astral so it never crossed my mine that was possible.

Now miss-information and bad movies caused us to think thermo could see through walls. We have always played that way assuming it was a SR thing. We don't try to hard to shoehorn the real world into SR.
Kagetenshi
Basically, Blackjack was wrong.
From the "rules" section in my game (houserules and canon clarifications):

QUOTE
There has been fierce debate for quite some time on the so-called "bleed-through" effect, where heat signatures bleed through walls and allow thermographic vision to essentially see people through walls.
This is entirely accurate.
Does this mean your cybereyes or your natural thermographic vision will allow you to snipe people through walls?
Hell no. This kind of bleed-through creates a small enough difference in temperature that the only time I'd even consider allowing this is with a SOTA military scope or something like that, which would probably also include advanced ultrasound and other toys to see through thin walls anyway. As for most thermographic imaging, you might be able to see someone if they've been excercising, are wearing little clothing, and are leaning up against a very thin wall with an ambient temperature under 50 F.


~J
Morphling The Pretender
Hell, if the object is possibly thin enough/cold enough to allow a thermal signature be visible through it, I'd give them a +2 on that Blind shot (-8) just because it's something. Of course, barrier ratings and power reduction would still occcur...

But this is just for coolness sake.
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