My buddy just picked up arsenal and I seriously don't understand how something like emotion software could be introduced into the game.

Now everyone can be a face for the paltry sum of 3k nuyen or less then a full build point at character generation.

Currently my character rolls about 12 dice on social skill tests, this is five charisma dice, tailored pheromones, and social skills. I'm not a min/maxed character by any means but it works for our campaign.

But... for 1 build point you can buy empathy software that equals half my skill dice before factoring in skills or charisma. This basically puts my character out of a job in many regards.

So... from what I gather from this new precedent is either the writers no longer want teams to use face type characters or they expect everyone to roll 18 plus dice for skill tests.

We don't run a min/maxed campaign for a reason... they're retarded. In another thread concerning dikoting it was mentioned that dikoting was never specifically mentioned because it became a must have. Emotion software has become the new must have for social characters and frankly I think the writers were smoking something when they put it in.

I generally love the stuff you guys put out but as a long term shadowrun fan... seriously, who came up with this lame ass idea?

Do what I do and pretend everyone and their mothers have one, thus it cancels out.

Or say that the emo-softs don't exist... just got a brain storm. House rule the emo-softs to just rank 3. This way, you can still have them, but you gimp them enough that the Face still has a job (he can use the emo-softs to make his life easier).

I am still kind of partial to my house rule of only using the Emotitoy's bonus to negate any penalties (up to their rating). There are almost always penalties in Social situations, and this way the toys can be of some use without dominating the game.

You know, normally I am extremely conservative about houseruling things, and hate when anything is called "overpowered", but even I have a problem with social software.

I could see software used to analyze someone to judge their intentions, or note their tells when they are lying, but I can't see how it could give a +6 to social skills - yeah, I could see the software analyzing social data, but I have a harder time seeing someone using it in real time. They are talking with someone while data is being pumped into their head? That would seem more of a distraction than a help. Also, if it works by analyzing facial expressions and the like, wouldn't kinesics reduce its effective rating, since kinesics involves inhuman control of your body's social cues?

I'm not sure yet how I'd fix it - maybe reduce its role to judge intentions tests alone, which would still be useful. But this is the first time I've had a big problem with gear since SR3, when the (pre-errata) mnemonic enhancer could give -3 to Karma costs for skills.

This is me also on the house ruling thing.

Also on judge intentions, that's great, software that can judge intentions at it's rating I can buy.
However, my face rolls 10 dice for judge intentions. If he's better at doing this shit then the software is how does the software possibly give him six extra dice for his social skill tests. Should my face get 10 extra dice naturally since he puts even rating six social software to shame on judge intentions tests?

I hate to flame the writers on this because like I said I love 99% of what you guys put out but I really don't follow what you guys were thinking when you put this stuff in the game. I'd love to be enlightened. Maybe I'm missing something.

I will say that software that adds a couple dice to social skills wouldn't be bad but six is a lot of dice. If a smartlink system was put in the game that added six dice to firearms tests I'm sure it would be thought of as game-breaking.

No such stuff in my game. I consider it a pure and unneeded power creep, probably the result of someone thinking "Hey, we need a new "must have" for faces too so their players will buy the book.

Part of me thinks this is in the game for the only reason that if a game happens if no one plays a face in a group.

GM: "so who made the face?"

*crickets*

GM: "Damn it..."

Then someone in the party buys the toy so at least someone can talk to the Johnson w/o getting the party killed. Other then that why bother with them? If no one wants to play a face I can see how this thing would be helpful, but thats about the only reason I can come up with.

Except that if emotion software is in the game then any Johnson worth his salt will be using said software. Like Fuchs said, it's a power-creep.

I roll six extra dice, you roll six extra dice, we all roll six extra dice. The shit is to cheap not to invest in and even if it cost ten times as much it would be to good not to invest in... and hell even at ten times the cost you're still getting six dice in every social skill for six build points.

I'm totally with you here. I rarely think ANYTHING is overpowered. In fact, the amount of time ive seen things called overpowered on this site, at this point you'd believe the entirety of SR4 is overpowered and unbalanced at the rate these words are thrown around. But there IS something off with these things. (Me, I have a problem with the 20 DV bow, among maaaaybe one or two other things scattered about the several books.)

Now, im ok with Skillwires, for example. Can't use edge, and the higher levels of softs are kind of costly anyway. If someone wants to pop their Leadership or specialized Etiquette soft or their Con ive got no problem. These things have been around forever and i never saw them break the game.

But these give stuff on TOP of that. I actually like the idea of them cancelling modifiers rather than adding dice, however. That's a clever use, it's still an advantage for sure but it's...different somehow. Im not sure how, but it is. Though the Judge Intentions bonus is cool too. Limiting their rating to 3-4 could combine with this and make for a nicely balanced too that's not screwing over the Faces.

it's different in that somebody with a dicepool of 6 and the software doen't get degraded to dicepool of 0 with some bad modifiers in there.
it does not give him 6 more dice making him the 12 dice face again. and if he has rating 6 software and there's only modifiers of -2? well hell, he only benefits of 2 of those ratings . .

I still like gimping them to only rating 3. They can give a boost, but not enough to make the Face of the Party want to take up being a sammy or some such.

There's an easy solution to Sensor Software in general, that even streamlines it: Treat it as a Teamwork Test.

Exactly.

Another potential fix, and one that might fit with the intent of the toys, is to make them non-compatible with Kinesics. I know it was suggested before, but the idea didn't seem to get enough attention. The toys could be a factor in leveling the playing field against the dreaded Pornomancer, if that Pornomancer can't really make use of the toy herself. Since these doodads seem to replicate the Kinesics ability (to some degree), it seems reasonable that they be mutually exclusive.

Maybe combine both house rules.

Perhaps the developers will bring out an errata for the rules concerning the emotion software... I sure hope that Unwired isn't going to have such lame power-creeping things...

I wouldn't be so hopeful...

However, I intend to use emotitoy dice as teamwork tests, however, so far none of my players have picked up on the dice bonus thing. I guess they are busy tricking out their guns.


Cheers!

Max

Errata for Emosofts, "They do not add their rating as a modifier to social skill tests"

I sincerely expect to see that in Errata for the book. There is no reason why you should be able to get the exact same number of dice from a world class skill in that area from some software that isn't even a skillsoft. It is just retarded. It still works well as a detect intentions/lie detector.

EDIT - And another thing: emosofts should not be equal to kinesics. If you feel that Kinesics is too powerful, raise the price or limit is to one half the highest social skill rating. To say that an adept has to pay 25BP for 5 levels of kinesics should be outdone by some chump who spent less than 1 BP on softs, and maybe 10more for Tailored Pheremones 3 (9 dice). That is just bullshit. Tailored Pheremones is the mundane's answer to the Pornomancer, not emosofts.

Any decent Pornomancer that I have seen already has Tailored Pheromones as well as Kinesics.

Hey, we totally agree on something! Groovy.

I'd allow them to give a bonus to Judge Intentions test, but i don't see how that would directly benefit social skills.

again, its probably the devs feeling that not enough people had good social skills and wanted to throw people a bone. just like how Augmentation had +perception mods leaking out of every pore.

None of my players have purchased Empathy software yet, but when they do, I plan on limiting it to just Judge Intentions tests. I'll probably do the same with Enhanced Pheromone Receptors from Augmentation.

A few other related items:
I was thinking of not allowing Kinesics and Tailored Pheromones to stack. It reduces a pornomancers max possible die pool just a little. But perhaps more importantly, it can help mundane faces keep up (at least a little bit) with adept faces.

I also toyed with the idea of capping Kinesics to level 3 (or Magic/2). I was also thinking of turning Judge Intentions and Composure into new skills rather than having them be attribute only tests. If I did this, I would give the players some extra BPs to compensate for adding new and important skills to the game.

Any thoughts?

Thanks!

JKL

The devs should have just let those players sink.



They had one bioware mod and one cyberware mod, and the cyber one sucked compared to the bioware version.

Enhanced Pheromone Receptors add to the overall social dice pool creep, but at least they have drawbacks - strong smells wind up giving you a penalty, and tailored pheromes act at double their normal effectiveness against you. Indeed, the drawbacks are so strong that I probably wouldn't get Enhanced Pheromone Receptors for a face build.

I don't think letting emotitoys offset penalties significantly weakens them. A face will often face penalties of 6 or higher for difficult tasks, so this would only let the face retain more dice for such tests. And the face wouldn't need those 6 dice for non-penalized tests.

There is no real non-metagame reason to not let Tailored Pheromes and Kinesics stack - one acts by scents, and one acts by controlling your own social cues and reading those of others. On the other hand, I agree that Kinesics and social software should not stack, since they do work the same way (analyzing social cues).

You're kidding, right? The Attention Coprocessor is gold!

or use my idea...


Yeah, that idea.

At least someone noticed it.

My thought exactly

possibly
but i think not

Why not?

Mostly because, for my games, I want the mundane/magical field leveled a lot more than I want face/non face leveled

So I would rather increase the price of those toys
say rating 1-3 rating x rating x 100
rating 4-6: rating x rating x 1 000

and software costing a similar amount

I don't really see the perception stuff as that unbalanced, maybe a bit but not terribly so.

For one only one skill is affected, for two (and I'm working off memory here) it costs more then 500 per die, and for three it costs essence.

As far as the software doing what kinesics already does thing, I agree on that but I don't agree that leaving both in game practically as is works either. This makes kinesics run 30 bp (without factoring in having to cap magic or buy the adept quality) and it's software equivalent still at less then 1 bp.

Social Software negating die pool modifiers up to it's rating is still probably to good, I'd have to do some play testing with it. Negating half it's rating rounded down in die pool modifiers though I could see.

Someone suggested that the software adds to judge intentions rolls... did I misread the book? I don't have the book on hand but I thought it just said that the software can be used to make judge intentions rolls with a die pool equal to it's rating. In which case I still don't understand how software that is less proficient at judging intentions then my character is somehow gives a bonus on social tests.

I'm not sure either, but if it works by doing something differently from how a human does it, ie a complementary approach, a bonus could be appropriate.

Except that I think it's supposed to work by reading nonverbal cues and analyzing vocal stress or whatever, which is how we do that.

It's nice. But Reception Enhancers add to Matrix, Sensor and Astral, additionally.

That may be, but I was refuting the statement that it 'sucks'.

If the players dont up their social skills , just limit extended tests to skill # of rolls. This provides a lot of encouragement. Also make sure they never get more than 50% of intended price for a run cause they don't know how to negotiate for shit. They will very quickly learn that they need to have some kind of social character in the group. You can't be shooting shit up all the time.

And just for the record, attention co-processor rocks! Not that it isn't a DP inflation issue.

If it was me GMing, I'd allow the Empathy program to add to Social Tests, but as teamwork, rather than as a straight bonus.

Now if you just load the emotion/empathy software into your comlink, could you use it on a VR meet in the Matrix? Just what do you roll in a virtual meeting with your Johnson in this instance?

Another thought is to use the Empathy program like other programs and have it replace your Charisma attribute. That way you still have to have the skill.

I think that emotion software makes perfect sense. Think Voigt-Kampf machine, analyzing the voice tone, the dilatation of the pupil and other clues that aren't easy to hide.
To send the information to the user it can either be a visual sign, a whisper or, more directly a knowledge sent to the brain the way knowsoft makes you know things.
So it's technically possible, at least to get a help on "Judge Intention" tests.


But it still has a few shortcomings: it needs enough input data (harder to use if it can't see the other's eyes for example) and, as all software, it can be deceived. Your cybereyes can fake any pupil dilatation you want, your voice modulator can change your tone... I guess you can have software to help you deceive such software.

So I'll have them in my game, but they'll stick to helping for Judge Intention tests (because that's what they do, if you want a software to help you talk better, buy a skillsoft) and they will have some limits.

Well, if you have got a problem with the empathy software, just set up a Camera Neutralizer at the meeting with johnson. The empathy soft and also the lie detection software needs the support of a camera. So just disable the cameras and the software is useless. If the runners ask why the camera neutralizer is set up, Mr J can just say, that it is for their own safty. No camera, no pictures.

And no cybereyes.

That would be fantastically hilarious.

Man, I wish I had Arsenal now. That sounds like fantastically devious way to screw...I mean challenge the players XD

Hide the camera neutralizer, or have an active hacker mess with the software...Joe Runner will be wondering why his teddy bear is telling him that his Johnson is really an evil Aztech feathered dragon in disguise and is gonna sacrifice them all in a blood rite! :roftl:

Also, I'm thinking of letting Kinesics or a Con test mess with the software, negating the bonuses or possibly inverting them, making it a penalty. While yeah, the concept for emotitoys are really, really stupid, the sad part is that I can see it happening.

How exactly would a "camera neutraliser" work on the toy, and not on cybereyes? Or cybereyes linked to the software?

"Can we blind you now, to make sure you're not using this software on us, Mr. Johnson?" is not a good opener.

Hm... Good point. Though hey, if the face is a pornomancer...That would be a better opening than some....things.

Maybe the Johnson is paranoid and wouldn't allow anyone with cybereyes into his meets? Speaking of which, can you hack empathy software? Spoof it or whatever?

The fact alone that said non-sensor rolls Rating x2 pretty much states: Broken.


..riiight.

I asked my group last night if they were cool with saying "NO" to emotitoys. One guy in the group suggested that we allow them, you just have to make some sort of social roll to get the toy on the table without it being awkward. At the time we agreed, then I got home and thought "wait, so the Johnson's basically always going to be gaining a +6 DP over the PCs because they don't have a face?" I'm not sure I'm ok with that.

There's nothing in the rules about hacking the empathy software but you can easily intercept the data sent by an emotitoy (it's probably non-encrypted) and edit it.
You can even directly hack the emotitoy (it's a wireless enabled device, it's got a node. It's a toy so it should be rating 1) and have it send whatever you want.

Unless the Johnson/Runner do the smart thing, and install the software in their headware, and use their cybereyes or skinlinked hidden sensors with it.

Yeah the stupid fluffy coating is not a limitation, you can cut paste the software onto your suit/gun/car/Aibo or you can reroute the video and audio from yourself via the matrix for all it matters to the toy, and then you are fully sweet mate.

In other news, they are completely moronic. The only counters DP pool penalty isn't a bad house rule though. Then you can play fast and loose with modifiers for stuff that is actually a problem in real life and happens all the time - like that the fact that the johnson is a guy with a real job and stuff, and you are a hardened criminal who shoots people for money and have no common cultural touchpoint. And he's from japan and you are from canada and have no common cultural touchpoints. And the only language you have in common is french and that is about his 4th language and frankly you never spoke english all that hot to begin with.

A no-camera zone or whatever could counter emotion software I suppose, since it needs some sort of real time sensor feed.

My Face has a full sim rig though, so a no-camera zone wouldn't do much to counter that scenario and as has been brought up cyber-ear and cyber-eye recorders would be an issue as well.



This is probably one of my biggest issues with the software. If anything I think the die-pool bonus should be limited to the rating of the sensor it's connected to and that it should be connected to a full sensor suite to be even remotely affective.

Picture a meet at a rigged building with sensors 3. The Johnson knows the buildings owner or maybe even owns it himself and gets his sensor feed for his emotion software through the building. He's running emotion software rating 6 but only gets 3 extra dice because the software isn't picking up enough information to get more then that.

Limiting the software in this way is a huge limitation for sure, but it also opens up a lot of fluff options for the software. Imagine a highly secured corporate building that uses the software at security check points and feeds the information to the guards, it would make them a lot harder to Con, give whoever was in charge of the detachment bonus leadership dice, and even make normal day to day stuff more interesting, like the employees who fake stomach aches to go home early.

For runners they'd have to access some sort of sensor net in the area to make good use of the software. This brings the software more in line with how I picture the other new software functioning. Like the Gait Recognition software or whatever... I don't see that so much as something each Lone-Star Beat Cop runs but something that's tied into a drone sensor grid.

*edit* I wanted to add my 2 on the replacing Charisma thing too. I think that's a bad idea. It's a mechanic most people already don't like for hackers even though it is canon. On top of this I really don't want to see any 1 Charisma characters showing up with high social skills and it doesn't do much to resolve the number of dice you get for your BP, in fact it would further encourage some characters to start with a 1 or 2 charisma and then band-aid it up to a six affectively with less then one more BP.

The Johnson hires people to shoot people for money (which he pays, sometimes). So there's that connection. Plus a lot of (not all, or even most) runners have corporate backgrounds. But the real thing is, Mr Johnson probably doesn't want to be your friend, nor does he care if you like him, so what's the big deal?

I would dispute that hardened criminals from the slums have much in common with a university trained, MBA toting executive. And these two people need to close out a handshake deal that they both feel assured will be completed and paided for. And the job is illegal. And they don't know or trust each other.

Damn straight you need to run the tightest negotiations that you humanly can and anything that can help put you in his shoes is a vital edge Cross cultural negotiations are a big problem all the time. Hell, today we have trouble successfully lateral hiring star analysts from one investment bank to another because of culture clashes. i'm sure that if we have cultural clashes in those two very alike worlds, they will exist in the two completely different worlds inhabited by Johnson and Joe Runner.

Also, I imagine shadowrunning is much like consulting. You want to get follow on work from the same provider. So while you probably won't be going to dinner on his Ares' dinner club, liking you, and enjoying working with you is a key priority.