First off still new too the SR4 system so if some of my questions are dumb, sorry...

Ok to the point, SR4 gives the optional rules for dropping Dmg-Res tests entirely, p.69

So say your using an Ares Pred DV 5P AP -1, vs Armor Vest B6/I4 in practice wouldn't the ares regardless of the hit do zero damage based on that principle rule?

DV 5 vs B6 (-1 AP = Armor Value of 5) = 0 (even without AP value would still leave 1 AV left)

So am I missing something with that optional rule, because seems to me some armor would null most guns unless Burst fire etc which is inpracticle unless called shots to unprotected areas? or different munition loadouts. Which could prove for a more interesting combat making players opt for skill over brawn.

opinions or help appreicated thanks.

Assuming the attacker scores a few net hits (very likely), not rolling damage resistance can end quite deadly. This optional rule is quite nice for low body characters, but I personally would not recommend using it.

Oh yeah, this rule makes Trolls indestructible, if Arsenal is used. So another point against using it

I'd prefer the standard rules. Since the arsenal it's easy to get an armor rating of 20+. Which gets the guys down faster cuz stun damage will be applied and most have'nt got that much willpower.
So take some dice and roll for soaking.

Yes I understand that net hits will factor in in as well, but i was using that as a basic outline same with other things could effect it the defenders side as well, in a straight up fight standings till with no other factors into play yes, net hits could make it deadly but when does that usually happen.

I'm looking at it from the perspective of being applied in active combat and too me it seems, useless almost...

I mean take a combat mage or anything using additional modifiers etc and it almost seems pointless unless your packing a rocket launcher...

*Note as above post*

Yes and with Aresenal things using that rule set could just be thrown out the window...

I was thinking about active combat, too, with penalties of around 6-8 dice. It will be realy freaking deadly, especially since it does not matter how much body characters have. Unless they start upgrading dermal armor/orthoskin, or even discover the joy of cyberlimb armor. That rule plain sucks the more I think about it.

My point exactly, I mean if there was a way to use it that made sense it would be great and cut down alot of time between scenes, But seems like it was just put there to fill space on the page more I think about it.

I'm guessing you played SR3? You would be correct in SR3.

In SR4, if the combined power and AP don't beat the armor, the damage is shifted to stun.
Then, the armor rating is added to your body rating for a soak test.

In SR3, the armor rating was subtracted from the power rating of the gun, giving you, in this case, a pistol with a net power of 0.

By the way, stunbolt does'nt penetrate armor, which means the stun damge + net hits = total stun damage.
That's my interpretation of that rule, which makes the mage the stun damage dealer from hell.
More than the mage was before.
So I think we should ignore that optional rule which lacks balance.

Actually the optional rule in question makes combat less deadly. Statistically, a person would need a combined armor and body rating of 18 to equal an armor of 6 with the optional rule being used, or 30 to equal an armor of 10 with the optional rule.

Using that optional rule ends up making combat last much LONGER because nobody can hurt anyone else unless they start pulling out the assault cannons - ask me how I know.

Of course the answer is I have been using that rule until recently, when I decided I didn't like it and have since starting using the normal combat rules.

Yes mostly SR3, and i just noticed the rule on pg.140 Thanks for the heads up, where it says it uses, stun value but are you sure it uses full armor, and now that Iam thinking about it, I think i seen it some where else, that would be 1/2 armor value for stun + body ? I don't see it saying the full value on that page... maybe im thinking of something else as well...

But even still if that is the case Higher armor values etc regardless of what it is, using that rule, if your running decent gear, plus other gear and/or magic, troll, or just whatever even the stun dmg is almost on avg null if your armor ratings + gear + mods are of any quality...

I'm just pointing out again that the rule seems almost tacked on and useless for the most part...

It's extremly deadly for regular guys with moderate armor. Like say an ork wearing a long coat, or something on the line. It's basically instagib for anything without armor.

Just because a few high armored nutjobs are virtually immortal does not make the system less deadly, just utterly borked. Which was my point from the start. I think.

And yes, Mage's stunbolt is beastly I'm rolling a combat mage and with the new rules he is quite nasty against non magic types, well in general he is...

Magic is and should be nasty. But a blade between the shoulders tends to hamper even the most sophisticated mages style

True enough, But even a mage with moderate skill In melee combat is a force, I mean mage split between melee and ranged, most focused on melee just for that issue, and He tears things up, I surprised how well i love the system now without all the dice pools (though i do miss them sometimes).

Though having a Cybered up Troll for back up always helps.

I'm on the verge of having a Troll trauma, so don't even start with them, please

And if the mage is good in melee, shoot him. If he starts dodging, he will not be casting. If he just hopes the bullets miss, he might wake up dead real fast. Ah, it's so beautiful sometimes.

I hear you there, my friend is the type of player who is basicly bigger is better, Big troll + Big gun lol

But ya i mean no character is end all be all, My mage can fall like any other but, merely pointing out how much more i enjoy playing a mage/hacker compared to SR3 is all, Specially since unwired is coming soon...

I would suppose if you wanted to run a particularly LETHAL version of Shadowrun you could do that. Then again, if you increased the difficulty of getting high end gear and limited character advancement (doing the same for all threats) it could make for a grittier and more fast pased game.

If anything it would be the opposite, where as most combat mods are usually - in form of the attacker which means less dice to score net hits, also most dmg would be stun dmg, and again thats only with low end gear your still running on avg 9-12 dmg of res for stun dmg against most weapons.

Im guessing it would make it longer and less lethal unless everyone knocks em out from stun dmg then waiting to run over and put a bullet in their heads.