Let's say you cast the Armor spell on an ally and sustain it. Armor has a range of LOS. Do you have to maintain LOS to keep the spell sustained, or can you then go around a corner and hide while sustaining the spell?
Similarly, if you cast the Mask spell on an ally, which has a range of Touch, do you have to keep touching your ally to sustain the spell? Or, is it that once you've started sustaining it, you can break contact and take other actions?
Full Version: Sustained spells and range?
No. You do not need to maintain LOS in order to sustain a spell on someone, but both you and the subject must remain on the same 'plane'.
No, you do not need to maintain touch with a touch-based spell. Just one touch will do to deliver the spell, then it can be sustained as normal (see above).
No, you do not need to maintain touch with a touch-based spell. Just one touch will do to deliver the spell, then it can be sustained as normal (see above).
QUOTE (Fortune @ Apr 9 2008, 10:23 PM) 
No. You do not need to maintain LOS in order to sustain a spell on someone, but both you and the subject must remain on the same 'plane'.
No, you do not need to maintain touch with a touch-based spell. Just one touch will do to deliver the spell, then it can be sustained as normal (see above).
No, you do not need to maintain touch with a touch-based spell. Just one touch will do to deliver the spell, then it can be sustained as normal (see above).
Awesome. Thank you for the reply.
Your answer is what I was guessing was true, but I wasn't sure.
No problem. 
QUOTE (Fortune @ Apr 10 2008, 06:23 AM)
but both you and the subject must remain on the same 'plane'.
Can you quote me a rules reference for this. I searched for it in vain recently.
Fortune how would that rule run if it is a Spirit of Man sustaining a Spell on you or someone else from the Astral. You do not have to have the spirit manifested to sustain a spell for you.
Just wanted to let you know Fortune I'm interested in where this rule is written and the details of how it works. I've previously though spirits could use powers and sustain them from the astral, even on material beings.
I play a possession mage now and then and despite having checked out possession FAQ thread new questions seems to pop up from reading other threads.
I play a possession mage now and then and despite having checked out possession FAQ thread new questions seems to pop up from reading other threads.
I'll check around and get back to you on it. I may be mistaken about that part, or it may, as I am thinking now, be just an exception with certain spells (such as Mindlink).
Would one of the limits of sorcery conditions apply?
I think the only limitation on sustaining a spell is that you remain awake and aware of the spell you are sustaining. Thus the -2 die pool penalty.
I think its in the FAQ or the BBB Errata or maybe the SM one.
I couldn't find anything, anywhere that explicitly barred sustaining between the physical, Astral and even the Metaplanes.
As far as I can tell you can have a bound spirit of man cast a spell on you, pay it's force in karma and have it clear off back to it's home Metaplane. This would give you a sustained effect that would last a year and a day, that had no Astral Form and whose caster had to be destroyed on an Astral Quest to shut down permanently.
As far as I can tell you can have a bound spirit of man cast a spell on you, pay it's force in karma and have it clear off back to it's home Metaplane. This would give you a sustained effect that would last a year and a day, that had no Astral Form and whose caster had to be destroyed on an Astral Quest to shut down permanently.
Which might pose a problem with wards, but from what I understand those aren't really around that much.
It sounds like a nice idea, really depends on the style of your GM though.
It sounds like a nice idea, really depends on the style of your GM though.
QUOTE (Zak @ Apr 10 2008, 05:07 PM)
Which might pose a problem with wards, but from what I understand those aren't really around that much.
It sounds like a nice idea, really depends on the style of your GM though.
It sounds like a nice idea, really depends on the style of your GM though.
from a normal person's perspective, probably true. from a shadowrunner's perspective, wards are all over the place.
kinda like high-tech security toys. i personally don't expect to ever come face to face with a patrolling drone armed with a machine gun. chances are, neither does the average wageslave in SR4. the average shadowrunner, on the other hand, expects to meet them fairly regularly.
Ok, so there does not seem to be a definite limit to sustain spells between planes (until someone can quote FAQ or errata that proves otherwise).
But I also wonder if it is possible for a spirit to use powers from the astral unto material beings (single-natured ones). For example, can a spirit use Confusion power on a human without first materalizing?
After playing my Houdon priest a few sessions I realize the many disadvantages to possession traditions (and unless you make a munchkin PC their advantages aren't broken IMHO). Being able to use spirits for utility purposes and tactical aid without first having them possess someone/something would smoothen the main disadvantage a bit. And no, having a spirit possess you all the time isn't and shouldn't be an option for me, if you read up on how easy it is to spot a possessed being you should come to that conclusion as well.
But I also wonder if it is possible for a spirit to use powers from the astral unto material beings (single-natured ones). For example, can a spirit use Confusion power on a human without first materalizing?
After playing my Houdon priest a few sessions I realize the many disadvantages to possession traditions (and unless you make a munchkin PC their advantages aren't broken IMHO). Being able to use spirits for utility purposes and tactical aid without first having them possess someone/something would smoothen the main disadvantage a bit. And no, having a spirit possess you all the time isn't and shouldn't be an option for me, if you read up on how easy it is to spot a possessed being you should come to that conclusion as well.
Spirits cannot use (P) powers while Astral nor can they use (M) powers on targets thats are not Astrally Active.
They are, however, allowed to use any power on their Summoner through the Mental link between them.
As to Wards. Sustained spells are not blocked by Wards. Quickened Spells and active Foci are blocked by Wards. Anything that has an Astral Form, in fact.
They are, however, allowed to use any power on their Summoner through the Mental link between them.
As to Wards. Sustained spells are not blocked by Wards. Quickened Spells and active Foci are blocked by Wards. Anything that has an Astral Form, in fact.
QUOTE (SR4 pg. 286)
Note that in order for a creature to use a power against a target, they must share the same “state:� astral or physical.
Astral forms cannot affect physical targets, and vice versa (see The Astral World, p. 181). Astral critters that materialize can affect physical targets, however, just as dual-natured critters can interact with both the physical and astral planes equally effectively.
Astral forms cannot affect physical targets, and vice versa (see The Astral World, p. 181). Astral critters that materialize can affect physical targets, however, just as dual-natured critters can interact with both the physical and astral planes equally effectively.
QUOTE (crizh @ Apr 11 2008, 07:41 PM)
They are, however, allowed to use any power on their Summoner through the Mental link between them.
I thought that as well, and even typed out that very response, but then couldn't find a reference to that effect. This is all that the book has to say in that specific section.
QUOTE (SR4 pg. 177)
Spirit-Summoner Link
A telepathic link exists between a spirit and its summoner at all times. This allows the spirit to communicate with its summoner from astral space without revealing itself. This link also allows communication over a distance—though it does not extend to the metaplanes. For this reason, a summoner will know when a spirit she has summoned has been disrupted, as she will feel the loss of the mental link.
A telepathic link exists between a spirit and its summoner at all times. This allows the spirit to communicate with its summoner from astral space without revealing itself. This link also allows communication over a distance—though it does not extend to the metaplanes. For this reason, a summoner will know when a spirit she has summoned has been disrupted, as she will feel the loss of the mental link.
QUOTE (crizh @ Apr 11 2008, 04:41 AM)
As to Wards. Sustained spells are not blocked by Wards. Quickened Spells and active Foci are blocked by Wards. Anything that has an Astral Form, in fact.
Wow. I always was under the impression that sustained spells had an Astral Form. Got to check that once I'm at my books.
Sustained spells are indeed opposed by Wards. I don't understand how anyone could think otherwise.
QUOTE (SR4 pg. 186)
Awakened characters have learned other methods of forcing their way through an astral barrier, however, and may 'press through' a barrier with a Magic + Charisma Opposed Test against the barrier's Force x 2. If the character scores more net hits, she forces her way through the barrier to the other side. The character may also bring a number of friends, spirits, active foci, sustained spells, or other astral forms with him through the barrier equal to the net hits scored. If the barrier scores more hits, the character fails to break through.
In some cases, a spell, focus, spirit, or even a character may be unintentionally forced into a situation where either they or the barrier must give. For example, a character who unknowingly walks through a mana barrier carrying an active focus, or a dual being in an elevator that passes through a ward on its way up. In this case, make the same Opposed Test described above (using Force x 2 for spells, spirits, foci, etc). If the barrier wins, however, the item or entity still breaks through but is automatically disrupted. Disrupted spells immediately end and disrupted foci deactivate. Disrupted spirits are sent back to the spirit's metaplane, whereas disrupted characters are knocked unconscious (fill in their entire Stun Condition Monitor).
In some cases, a spell, focus, spirit, or even a character may be unintentionally forced into a situation where either they or the barrier must give. For example, a character who unknowingly walks through a mana barrier carrying an active focus, or a dual being in an elevator that passes through a ward on its way up. In this case, make the same Opposed Test described above (using Force x 2 for spells, spirits, foci, etc). If the barrier wins, however, the item or entity still breaks through but is automatically disrupted. Disrupted spells immediately end and disrupted foci deactivate. Disrupted spirits are sent back to the spirit's metaplane, whereas disrupted characters are knocked unconscious (fill in their entire Stun Condition Monitor).
Hmmm, you do indeed appear to have a point.
I suppose that I just assumed that since sustained spells no longer possessed Astral Forms they would not be affected by Barriers. It appears that I should pay more attention to the text.....
Any luck finding a quote barring sustaining from other planes?
As to Spirit Power use...
"While in Astral form, spirits can only perform services that effect the Astral Plane or that directly affect their summoner..."
SR4 p176
I suppose that I just assumed that since sustained spells no longer possessed Astral Forms they would not be affected by Barriers. It appears that I should pay more attention to the text.....
Any luck finding a quote barring sustaining from other planes?
As to Spirit Power use...
"While in Astral form, spirits can only perform services that effect the Astral Plane or that directly affect their summoner..."
SR4 p176
SR4 BBB
Spirit Forms pg 176
Spirits use the Materialization power to assume physical
form when they must use a power on a target not present in astral space.
Bound Spirit Services pg 178
Magical Services: Th e magical services available from a bound spirit are Aid Sorcery, Aid Study, Spell ustaining, and Spell Binding. A spirit intended to assist the magician with magic must match the category of magic, according to the magician’s tradition. Th at is, a hermetic mage may use a fire elemental to Aid Sorcery for the magician’s combat spells, while a shaman may call on a spirit of the sky to maintain an illusion
spell such as Invisibility. A bound spirit may provide any of these magical services to its summoner while remaining in astral form.
I still have not found if summoned/unbound spirit can do this.
Spirit Forms pg 176
Spirits use the Materialization power to assume physical
form when they must use a power on a target not present in astral space.
Bound Spirit Services pg 178
Magical Services: Th e magical services available from a bound spirit are Aid Sorcery, Aid Study, Spell ustaining, and Spell Binding. A spirit intended to assist the magician with magic must match the category of magic, according to the magician’s tradition. Th at is, a hermetic mage may use a fire elemental to Aid Sorcery for the magician’s combat spells, while a shaman may call on a spirit of the sky to maintain an illusion
spell such as Invisibility. A bound spirit may provide any of these magical services to its summoner while remaining in astral form.
I still have not found if summoned/unbound spirit can do this.
Powers p 286
Duration: Powers have a duration that indicates how
long the effect lasts: Always, Instant, Sustained, Permanent,
or Special.
Powers that are always in eff ect (have an Action of Automatic)
have a duration of Always, as they are constantly “on.�
Instant powers take effect and vanish in the same action,
though they may have lasting eff ects (damage, for example).
Sustained powers may be maintained over time at no effort
or cost. Because these powers are innate, the critter is not subject
to any strain or modifiers for keeping the effect going.
Even taking damage will not disrupt these powers’ ability
to sustain. Also, line of sight does not have to be maintained
aft er the power takes hold of its target. Critters may sustain a
number of powers equal to their Magic at one time.
So it seems that a spirit can materialize to user a power on a mundane then pop off to the Astral Plane and maintain the power/spell.
Duration: Powers have a duration that indicates how
long the effect lasts: Always, Instant, Sustained, Permanent,
or Special.
Powers that are always in eff ect (have an Action of Automatic)
have a duration of Always, as they are constantly “on.�
Instant powers take effect and vanish in the same action,
though they may have lasting eff ects (damage, for example).
Sustained powers may be maintained over time at no effort
or cost. Because these powers are innate, the critter is not subject
to any strain or modifiers for keeping the effect going.
Even taking damage will not disrupt these powers’ ability
to sustain. Also, line of sight does not have to be maintained
aft er the power takes hold of its target. Critters may sustain a
number of powers equal to their Magic at one time.
So it seems that a spirit can materialize to user a power on a mundane then pop off to the Astral Plane and maintain the power/spell.
QUOTE (Magus @ Apr 11 2008, 02:40 PM)
So it seems that a spirit can materialize to user a power on a mundane then pop off to the Astral Plane and maintain the power/spell.
Interestingly, as Innate Spell is a power, maintaining it does not result in the standard -2 for sustaining a spell.
The power of Innate Spell, gives the ability to cast a spell just as a mage learning a spell has the ability to cast it.
Casting and sustaining a spell is still covered by the rules for spellcasting. So no free sustaining.
Casting and sustaining a spell is still covered by the rules for spellcasting. So no free sustaining.
Not sure I can find any text clearly supporting that opinion.
The Innate Spell Duration entry reads 'as spell'. Without any text contradicting the standard rules on 'sustained' powers I can't see any reason to change them for this power.
The Innate Spell Duration entry reads 'as spell'. Without any text contradicting the standard rules on 'sustained' powers I can't see any reason to change them for this power.
QUOTE (Sma @ Apr 11 2008, 11:20 AM)
The power of Innate Spell, gives the ability to cast a spell just as a mage learning a spell has the ability to cast it.
Casting and sustaining a spell is still covered by the rules for spellcasting. So no free sustaining.
Casting and sustaining a spell is still covered by the rules for spellcasting. So no free sustaining.
I do believe Sma has it correct:
Powers: Innate Spell BBB pg.289
QUOTE
Innate Spell
Type: A • Action: Complex • Range: per spell • Duration: per spell
A creature with the Innate Spell power has the instinctive
ability to cast one spell. Th e critter must possess the Spellcasting
skill in order to use the power eff ectively. Innate Spells cast by
a critter are the same as those cast by magicians, and magicians
can use Counterspelling against them as normal.
Type: A • Action: Complex • Range: per spell • Duration: per spell
A creature with the Innate Spell power has the instinctive
ability to cast one spell. Th e critter must possess the Spellcasting
skill in order to use the power eff ectively. Innate Spells cast by
a critter are the same as those cast by magicians, and magicians
can use Counterspelling against them as normal.
So it would have a sustaining cost of -2 to all actions involved. At least that is how I read it.
QUOTE (crizh @ Apr 11 2008, 10:49 PM)
I suppose that I just assumed that since sustained spells no longer possessed Astral Forms they would not be affected by Barriers.
Why is it that you think spells have no Astral Forms? Their auras are certainly easily detectable from the Astral, so they must have some kind of 'form' or presence while active.
QUOTE
As to Spirit Power use...
"While in Astral form, spirits can only perform services that effect the Astral Plane or that directly affect their summoner..."
SR4 p176
"While in Astral form, spirits can only perform services that effect the Astral Plane or that directly affect their summoner..."
SR4 p176
Much obliged.
QUOTE (crizh @ Apr 11 2008, 06:16 PM)
Not sure I can find any text clearly supporting that opinion.
The Innate Spell Duration entry reads 'as spell'. Without any text contradicting the standard rules on 'sustained' powers I can't see any reason to change them for this power.
The Innate Spell Duration entry reads 'as spell'. Without any text contradicting the standard rules on 'sustained' powers I can't see any reason to change them for this power.
As Fortune was kind enough to post the relevant passage, I'll just refer you to the last sentence that, quite clearly, states that innate spells are the same as those cast by magicians. Hence the rules for spellcasting apply, which in turn means the sustaining penalty is in effect.
All the power does is provide knowledge of the spell. You could replace it with a piece of text that says:
"This Power saves you the time, tests and karma required to learn a spell, instead you just know it. Go nuts."
Thanks guys for help clearing this up, at least my Houdon can use my spirits of man to have them cast my spells on him without having to possess first.
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