in the 1,5 errata they modified flechette ammo to give +5 AP rather than +2. Does anyone know if the same applies to other weapons using flechette rules, such as shotguns, Fragmentation grenade and Ares Slivergun?

I say no, the errata would have mentioned that.

Yes it does.
Even the shotgun choke rules are modified by this.
Except grenades, I'm not too sure about that one...

By the way, I'm not sure if this is the accepted ruling but I'm adding the +5 AP to the default damage, so shotgun flechette damages become 9P/+4(impact) and the choke rule become:
Narrow= +2DV/+5AP (the aforementioned 9P/+4),
Medium= +0DV/+7AP,
Wide= -2DV/+9AP (so 5P/+8, but hitting 3 targets with -4DP to defense. Priceless with unarmored foes).

Logically, yes. Anything that uses flechettes should have the AP modified.

I believe this has been brought up before, and IIRC that was the consensus opinion.

While it is consensus opinion, it is also RAW that there are weapons that use flechette but did not have their weapon damage errataed. As it stands, those certain weapons' AP do not change if the AP is already factored in and was not errataed.

If you want to, you can rationalise it as those weapons are designed with the flechette in mind and the designers designed the weapons so that the flechettes disadvantages are minimised.

I've looked at the 5th printing books, and the choke rules, and shotguns, and all other forms of flechette were changed. I wish they would be included in the errata though.

I guess that settles it, thanks to all who replied.

When is the 5th printing printed?

Not 5th edition, 5th printing of the BBB.

OK, then when is the 5th printing printed? Before or after Arsenal? Flechette is +5 AP in Arse while the other flechette weapons are still +2. So forgive me for pulling the stats out of my Arse, AVS is still at +2 AP.

When there will be no more 4th printing in stock :x

Shouldn't "when there is no more 4th printing in stock" be more appropriate?

Yeah that's what I meant.
Sorry, English is not my native tongue...

I've currently got my copy which is 5th and the 2 in my Local gaming shop are both 5th. I think the printings are at distributors however if your shop doesn't need to restock it won't.

I'd be glad if we could get a 2nd printing here. My book is full of post-it erratas.

BBB 5th printing was released February 25th, almost a month before the final street date of Arsenal, but well after the PDF release. Despite the official site saying the changes being included in the errata, I have not seen any of them listed. I will need to check on the choke rules, as I had not noticed them, but Fragmentation grenades also now have +5 AP. I do not recall the listed stats of flechette-only weapons being updated, but as for making sense, I would add +2 AP to them (most did not take into account the -1 inherit to the weapon, noticed most clearly by the shotgun that can fire flechette or slugs).

So, fragmentation grenades officially do 12P(f)/+5 ?

No, they still do 12P(f)/+2 unless a new errata states otherwise.

As was mentioned earlier, the latest printing of SR4 has grenades adjusted to fit with the rest of the revised flechette rules. A new Errata for the core rule book is imminent, and will probably include such changes.

I think shotguns should be changed to fit the new flechette rules. Shot rounds have always worked the same as normal flechette ammo. Frag grenades though are a little less obvious. IRL, frag grenades are pretty deadly, probably moreso than buckshock (though I'm no expert). Really though it's all up to the GM until they actually put it in the errata. Per the errata and the RAW (at least in my printing of the book), shotguns and frag grenades don't change. They should, but the GM will have to decide that for himself.

I was under the impression that the default for SR4 shotguns was firing slugs. I could be wrong about that, and I don't feel motivated enough at the moment to look it up.

Yes but we were talking about shotgun firing shot rounds (f).

Check out the results when a FA Shotgun fire Long Burst Narrow/Medium Chokes

WMS

Kind of. According to the newest printing (5th printing), yes, it does. However, the official errata does not yet reflect the changes made in this printing, making it unclear if it is yet considered an official ruling (although I will be pretty pissed if it is not, considering I bought the newest printing so I would not need an errata...) I would recommend trying to contact a dev or other Shadowrun official about it if you are still not sure.

So is BBB 5th printing refering to the 5th printing PDF or the dead tree version? I do not have the Arsenal PDF but have the hardcopy. Not only are the old SR4 BBB flechette weapons +2AP, the new flechette weapon in Arsenal is also +2 AP.


I'd pretty pissed if it was, considering Arsenal came out after the BBB 5th printing, and I bought Arse in part to update the weapons in BBB to the latest errata. Oh, well, even so the new flechette weapon in Arse is still +2AP (by the way, the date for the errata needs to be changed so we know which book is latest, the current SR4 errata list its date as Dec 1 2006)

Arsenal was printed and released (in pdf) before the 5th printing of the SR4 rulebook. The pdf came out quite a while (a couple of months?) prior to the actual dead tree version (with no changes between the two as far as I know), and in the intervening time the 5th printing of the BBB was put out.

There has been no new Errata since the 3rd printing of the core book, as 1.3 is the latest version at the present time, with none accompanying or following the 4th printing. The plan as I know it is the powers-that-be are going to release a new version of the Errata Soon™.

Which still means that the paper version of Arsenal is after the paper version of the 5th printing. Furthermore, the online errata states version 1.5 and not version 1.3. The latest word is still the dead tree Arsenal.

By the time the fifth printing was released, Arsenal was already at least half-way through the print run, and had been available for purchase in PDF for over a month. Any errata changes to Arsenal would not make it into the first printing, without question.

The errata was supposedly updated with the changes in 5th printing, but nothing changed, except v1.4 to v1.5 (first line) - not even the supposed date of the errata.

Further, there are significant errors, typo's, and inconsistencies in the Arsenal charts. Although I am unsure about Catalyst's stance on the issue, it is fairly standard for RPG's that printed text overrides tables & charts in all instances, and the core book overrides anything stated in advanced rulebooks (unless specifically stated otherwise). Also, buying Arsenal to update the already available rules is pretty damn retarded - it's charts are for quick reference, not errata, and was printed because of everything *not* already in the core book.

On a final note, if any of the developer's are reading this thread, it would be nice if we could here what the official stance and version to be used is.

That would spoil the joke.

And by the time 5th printing was half way through the print run, Arsenal would be in the final stages of prep for PDF. So either way, the errata should have had time to get into hardcopy Arsenal, even if it slipped by the PDF version. If the intention was for all flechette weapons to get +5AP, that would have been clear by the 4th printing, then Arsenal should never have had another new flechette weapon with +2AP.


Buying Arsenal to only update the already available rules is pretty damn retarded. But if the intention was to kill 2 birds with 1 stone and to check sum across references, then retarded it is not.