I can't seem to find any info on LS or KE car impounds in any of my source books so I was wondering what kind of security measures they are likely to have.
Would they have Security riggers or regular guards? Motion detectors? Mages?
Any info or just plain speculation would help allot.

Our GM made it rather insecure...We kinda used modern tactics...a guy at the gate, with a card pass required to get in...cameras and the like. Of course there were also keypads and swipers to get in... Nothing really high tech...but that depends, it may be right off the police station...LS building, etc, not a stand alone outpost like ours was... If this is the case, they would probably have lots more security.

Of course all of this is speculation since we dont' really know.

Not being in law enforcement or corporate security, I can but speculate.

But realistically you would have to plan it given a few things...

My fake-ass builder...

Start off with my local Des Moines Impound yard... 2 gaurds 24 hrs a day. Video surveilance...AFAIK no keycards/etc

Assume move into year 2060 maybe still 2 guards, now add keypad/card locks at gates and maglocks at the doors to the buildings which actually house the goods/cars...

Bigger city = more security...
If it is a huge city, I would say a guard at each gate, and a guard in every corner, then another at each door into the buildings. Video still, maybe higher ratings maglocks and such. Base of good doors, probably metal. From there, fit to your campaign. If it is Seattle, or they have anything particularly worth guarding, maybe add a mage, or better/more guards.
Normally though impound yards aren't that hugely secure.

This is just my 2 cents but this is LS in 2060, shouldn't they be equivalent to a large corporation and thus protecting their assets which includes impounded vehicles and equipment.

If I remember correctly from the little I have read about LS when I glanced at the sourcebook they have a large building protected by wards, spirits and whatnots.

Think about what they have impounded (probably down in an underground garage below their own patrolcar garage). Let's see...


1. Enough impounded small arms to equip every gang in seattle
2. Anti-tank weapons
3. Explosives
4. Heavy weapons (All those brainless Streetsams they shot and killed)
5. Rigger vehicles (You already KNOW how much weaponry one of those things can be equipped with)
6. The usual amount of impounded drugs
7. Focis. Sustaining foci, weapon foci etc.
8. Illegal spell formulas
9. Ammunition to the above weapons
10. Personal items pending investigation.

I personally think that they will have more, a lot more than just two guards and a fence between all that and every salivating runner in seattle.

On the other hand. What kind of rep would a runner team get after SNEAKING in and out of LS without firing a shot and getting away with stealing a car full of goodies?

I have to go with what The Jopp said, I read a source book that had the outlay description of the floors of the Lone Star building. Any important impounded items are where stored in the very secure basement, and would be watch continually.

Oh, I like the Sig. If I remember correctly that is either from the Warhammer 40k rule book or the Space Marine Codex.

Impound would be a very secure facility, probably a old multi story parking garage converted. every floor bricked in, the thing would look like a solid pile of concrete, no doubt painted in bright colors and covered in billboards to disguise its true nature, once inside the impound lot, there would be cameras on every major junction, pressure sensors, door sensors, motion detectors, and the guns and explosives would be kept on the middle floor. I.e you either have to fight your way up to them, or down to them.

Guards would be heavily armed, and the wront rolladoors would opperate like an airlock, you drive in through one armored gate into a waiting area, the rolladoor comes down, the identification is verified and the vehicle is searched, then a pair of guards escort the person to the designated thing your after and escort you out with it.

The guards would be paid well to ensure their loyalty, and the security systems would not be accessable from the matrix, Onsite Rigger access only.

I believe Mystical_X is talking about cars. From my experiences. Cars are kept on a lot, surrounded by a fence and barb wire, one maybe two guards depending on the size of the lot and size of the police force. Almost all cars impounded are for stupid things like to many parking tickets or drug raids and siezures. Meaning that most people are not looking to add to their troubles to steal their car back, besides who is stupid enough to steal from the police. So in the future I don't see any reason for security to get much higher for impounded cars. Of course if the car is involved in a crime they will put it some where so it can not be tampered with and comprimise the DA's case. Also if a rigger is stopped and his sedan/tank is impounded it to will move onto a secure site, because it to will more thank likely be evidence in a crimal case. But if you are just looking for a Ferrari or a Porshe for an evening on the town, they will be sitting right next to the Americars and Elektras. Chances are also they have a rent-a-cop on the lot as security because a $6.00/hour high school drop out is cheaper then a trained law enforcement officer who is better serving the community out in the field impounding cars not guarding them. The guard may sit in a hut with some cameras but not much else.

It is your game, go for it.

But most municalpilities just can't afford losing all that money to guarding cars. Your dooms day senerio would happen maybe once in very blue moon, and would them lead to a major investigation which would pull down so much heat that it really is not worth it unless you can get all those cars onto a ship and out of the country in less then a day. You had better hope no one needs the reward money. Lone Star is a corporation looking to protect their profits. Don't forget a lot of the cars impounded today become "state" property when it is impounded so explaning to Mr. CEO why junior lost his Maserati might not be a problem, because it might not belong to Junior anymore. Then again if Mr. CEO is really powerful in the area he will have connections in the local government to have Juniors car released almost right away.

I know it is also a game and need to provide a challenge to your players so I guess I would put close the same type of security on it also.

I agree with Frag. I mean since LS is a money making corp, they'll try to cut costs. So paying a ton of cred just to guard impounded stuff seem too much of an overkill to me. Maybe if the stuff was being kept in a high security compund used to store LS's own goodies, maybe it would be reasonable. But most of the time the really good stuff wouldn't be in the impound yard, it would be in the evidence room of the local station or in the parking lot of the local station.

In the LS sourcebook, they talked a lot of about how LS would cut costs. Like Seattle is on the water so they built a Water Patrol, after the PR shine wore off they scrapped the whole thing but are still getting the contracts for the water way security.

Also going back to Junior's Maserati. I am sure the cops will know tha name of thekids father and take special care of it while it is being held. It is amazing how much the local cops know the rich and famous of the area, after they too are also devient and need police protection.

Cars are one thing, but the other, high-risk stuff listed like:

Guns, BTL chips, decks, anti-vehicle weapons, body armor, cybernetics

would all be stored elsewhere -- either in evidence lockers or storage facilities in the basement of the precinct.

The really expensive vehicles might have wheel-locks or some sort of blocker circuit preventing the internal electronics from working. But that kind of individual, high-end security would only be put on the really nifty vehicles -- the Spyder rather than the Honda Civic, to use today's examples.

Now, if you wanted to be nasty, try breaking into a LS building to loot the evidence storage.

-Siege

I realize the question was about LS or KE car impounds, but 90% of the time it won't be there. After all, most LS or KE places can't afford to build an impound, and it costs money to tow and store these things.

Yes, if your car is being held for a high profile case, is somehow illegal or of a lot of value to the police, expect it to be with the police. If your car is impounded because you lost your license, got into an accident or left it on the side of the road somewhere for weeks, it won't be at the police station it'll be at the closest towing service impound. When it doubt, I'd bet on the local tow impound. If your bison was taken towed by the police expect:

Some place off a dead end, by the train tracks.
Security includes a parking lot with dangerously large pothols
ten foot fence topped with consierge or barbed wire.
no less than 3 cats
2-4 overweight men (during the day) who sit around on lunch break from 10:30am-2:30pm. They all have big towtrucks and pickups around the back, most likely they'll have handguns and/or shotguns somewhere
1 slightly overweight, quite unattractive 30 year old woman behind the counter.
Your car will be surrounded by other beaten up cars, so it won't be easy to get it out unless you plan on driving over the other cars, or can spend at least half an hour maneuvering them with a tow truck (if you're waiting on a driver, expect to wait 1d6-1 hours beforehand for them to finish 'lunch').
1-4 probably defunct video cameras spread around the area looking at nothing in particular.

You can expect to pay $100 for towing plus $20 a day for holding. They probably don't care if your car is actually 'drivable' as long as you get it off their lot (after paying). If your car is nice, expect a new aroma and several inexplicable stains you can't get out with bleach.

The guy I know that runs an impound lot has a few beaten dogs, not cats. The dogs look like death warmed over and nasty as all get out. The are covered in grease, dried blood, scars and missing patches of fur. You would almost thing he watched a movie and went to the pound and freed the dogs that he saw in Kujo or something. I know I wouldn't mess with those freakin' mongrels. They look and act like they don't give a rats ass about chewing your legs off and eating the rest of you later.

And I think a few of the guys he has working for him have dependency of some sort or another so they would probably would be a good way in during your SR session.

Cool thing, he has some sort of contract with the insurance companies, that when a car is totalled out he has to finish the job. Some people don't know but some damage will make a car totalled, meaning the cost of repair is more then the value of the car. But most of the car could be stripped and sold for parts because there is nothing wrong with the rest of the car. The want the car destroyed because once they pay the bill on the car it is technically the property of the Insurance company and they are not set up to deal with the stripping and selling of parts, so they pay him to finish the job the origanil owner couldn't. So he drives them into piles of junk to blow the air bags and just has a ball destroying what is left of a car. I think he has been in at least a hundred head on collisions.

Are you serious?? I mean granted, if my $300 car (don't laugh, it WAS worth $300) is done $250 of damage (dented bumper or a broken window) it IS better for the insurance company to do another $51 of damage, buy the car and get $100 back in parts (net cost of $200 instead of $250). But somehow that seems grossly illegal.

Think of it grander...

If I have a 25,000 car which labor and parts on a full totaling job, redetail, body work, engine repair, etc etc...Very easily could go above 30k...

Assuming you actually have a 300 car, if the engine goes, labor alone would be 400 or 500 dollars...

Mind you usually this is moot in an impound lot, as most cars are from traffic violators, not from cars which no longer can be driven out of the lot.

Ok the guy I know does impound, and automotive work so he has his hand in all of it.

nezumi, I guess I didn't explain it right. Like Dende said if you car is worth $300 dollars and you did something to cost more then $300 in damage your would be labled totalled. Which means the Insurance company would give the $300 buks and call it a wash.

Now the cars he gets are pretty new, in the $20,000 to $35,000 range. Well people have done a lot of damage to these cars. The $20,000 car once driven off the lot might drop in value to say $15,000, if do that much damage to the car they call it a wash. Now to keep people from taking these cars and selling the parts they pay him to wreck the remaining parts (what I meant when I say he finishes what the origanil owner couldn't finish). He isn't trying to push the damage higher to purposly total it. The car has already been declared totaled. He just destroys the tires, body, windows, electronics, engines, drive train, whatever. For some reason instead of selling the scrap out to him and let him strip it for parts and sell it, they pay him to break it down so no one can. I guess their philosophy is if it is worthless to me I'll make damn sure it will be worthless to you. It is probably a liability issue also. An air bag is considered a dangerous explosive and you need a special permit to take them out, but since he doesn't want to get that permit and can't legally resell them he just drives the wreck into a pile of junk to set it off. One time him and one of his employees did a head to head to set 2 off at the same time, very cool.

Wow... I want that job... I seem to be pretty good at crashing cars to begin with *blush*

But I really did think that if the car company buys the car because its totalled, its THEIR car, and THEY sell the parts. If my $300 car got a broken window and is 'totalled', I can't say to the insurance company 'give me $300... and my car, thanks.' Can I? If so, it would make more sense (I just bought a used car for $300, demolish it, get my money back for it and sell the parts for another $100... good for me, mister insurance buyer!) How much do they pay that guy? I know some people who'd do it for free...

Umm. Drawing likenesses of impound lots in RL and impound lots in SR is all well nd good, but AFAIK most security in SR is much higher than in RL.

1 mage per lot may be a bit much (not everyone is awakened) but you could easily expect some watchers or bound elementals guards. Drones (or concealed gun emplacements) would also be probable. As it's a lot linked with LS or KE, I'd expect backup to arrive fairly fast from patroling units if the alarm was sounded.

I also doubt that lonestar would subcontract to people who are not fully-lonestar-owned, and in 2063 I wouldn't be at-ll surprised if impounded cars became lonestar property. IE: Corp orders would probably be to send valuable vehicles to a secure impound where there probably would be a better-equipped security team (including a mage).

I should probably explain the stationary gun emplacement thing:

Basically they're body 1 or 2 drones that range in size from fire-hytrants to telephone boxes.

I gave them a 0.1 to 0.15 markup multiplier, making them very cost-effective. I know this is particularily cheap but it makes sense for most of the stuff you want to put on them as the armor can be havier (cheaper materials) the pilot rating and sensors don't need to factor in themselves moving (simpler = easier to make) ETC.

They usually carry either a pop-up microturrets on the small ones and mini-turrets on the large ones. The small ones are sometimes found on street-corners in AAA neighbourhoods and sometimes indoors in foyers or secure areas. The large ones are found on the perimiters of military/secure corp complexes.

Ok, Im seeing this get outta hand. A major city (since I live there) like Boston has a police impound lot. 2 story parking garage (with high ceilings for tow trucks) with a chain link fence, some razor wire and one very tired looking guy (with sidearm) sitting in the booth at the gate. This is not where they put people who dont pay for parking tickets. They park cruisers here as well as the nicer cars that are gotten from crimes (often they are held here pending investigation) The local guys (Joes towing) has an 'impound' lot. In this case its a bit of flat ground with a sagging chain link and a slding gate that might work. Oh, and a fat balding man named Joe.
Either way, a competent running team will have close to free reign over both areas. However, the police lock-up has much better survailance (multiple stationary camaras, and Archei the Cop that walks around once every few hours), where as Joe's has one camara, and a mangey rotwhilier. I find it VERY hard to belive that leathal force (of the remote turrent varity) would be used to protect a towed car. This isnt the basement lock-up or the wepons cage.

Woo, a fellow Bostonian!

But yeah. Impound security ain't gonna be tight unless for whatever reason they decide to stash the thing in a military base.

~J

I understand that there wouldn't be much security compared to, for example, a police station. It just depends on what security you have in a police station.

Security seems to be tighter across the board in the 2060s. Police cars, for example, sport armour that can deflect light pistol and SMG rounds. The standard police firearm only fires in burst fire mode. Not to mention the fact that any mage with invisibility could waltz in there unchallenged unless there was some form of awakened presence.

As far as the drone thing goes: Weapons with selectable gel/normal rounds (or tasers/pepper sprays) could be used at a little extra cost. I know that people don't use drones nowadays, but we don't have drones nowadays. I'm pretty sure that if we did (at a reasonable price) then they would be used (albeit with non-lethal weapons such-as pepper spray) as a more active addition to CCTV systems in high security areas/so-as not to endanger human life. As shadowrunners seemingly become more common leading up-to the 2060s it implies to me that it's not unreasonable to use automated deterrent systems even in lower-hazard areas in the 2060s (given the right price).

But that's just my view based on my game-world. I'm not saying that turrets with armor 12 and HMGs would spring-up if you tried to steal a car, i'm saying that there would be a a tired-looking guy, a coupple of watcher spirits, and a few security cameras that doubble as pepperspray guns/Gel-round firing SMGs/tear-gas dispersers/whatever.

One thing to keep in mind is that in 2060+, most cars wil have transponder-type things that help track the vehicle. This would go a long way towards alleviating the need for ultra-high security, being that if the car was stolen, odds are that it could easily be tracked.

A mage could waltz in. The mage could also waltz out. The mage could not, however, drive out without a little effort.

~J

Or the mage could break into a vehicle and alter it (making it useless as evidence), or steal something from it. He could even mind-control the mage into ignoring him. Having a watcher there would just make it more difficult.

As for the transponder chips: what effect do you think that would have on impounded cars? Sure you could return them to their owner if the transponder was not tampered with mut I'd imagine most car theives by 2060 would know how to remove a transponder chip, or at-least wouldn't try to sell it on without doing so.

When i got my 72 buick impounded

it wasnt at an acctual police impound, it was just a tow truck yard. I could have just jumped the fence started it up and drove off (after rehooking up the battery)
but i payed the 300$ to the yard, the 50$ to the cops, and a 157$ ticket. more than i payed for the car!!!

although in SR if you had guns mounted on it and the sort they would probly keep it near a police station. your not likely to find a fenced off area full of impounded vehicles in, or around the station itself.

if its a minor offense, dui or whatever, ited be in a mostly unguarded tow yard.

(i did not get a dui, i parked in a very stupid area, but the sign saying not to park there was totaly covered by a tree!!!!! tried to argue but they wouldnt listen, stupid sign, stupid tree, stupid........money takers!)

Provided of course the towing service doesn't provide it's own security which would vary depending on the wrecker service.

Yet another potential career choice for shadowrunners -- tow truck operators and repo men!

I think that has some potential for a character concept...

-Siege

Lilt, I think you mean would try to sell it on, and quickly, if they didn't know how to remove the chip.

~J

I think that everyone in 2060 would be wary of buying a car in a quick deal as they'd know that the car was going to be taken back in a day or so's time. (that is to say without checking that there is no vehicle transponder chip)

As I said earlier, I doubt that Ares or Lonestar would subcontract to non-owned subsiduaries. OK: Nowadays there may be independant truckyards ETC but these are corporations we're talking about, if something can earn money then they create/own it already.

Why wouldn't they sub-contract? They are corporations that need to look out for their bottom line, sub-contractors are a way to cut cost.

Ok, depending on the vehicle, you will get different security for your car.

If it is a criminal investigation it will have a good bit of security around it. A few guards camersa drones maybe a mage and some spirits.

If your car was towed because you are a dead beat dad or parked on your neighbors lawn in a fit of drunken stupidness, it will in all likelihood be towed and impounded at bob' tow yard. Some states run their own tow yards, but they really don't do impounding.

Another thing the impound lot for the good stuff and things that are required for court cases are held in a secret place. About 2 or 3 years ago the DA had to give a couple of bad guys their walking papers because someone found the evidence against them and stole it from the "secret" building. I drove past the building everyday and never paid it any attention, nothing worthy to say about it. It had one camera per door (2), and as far as I know no other security, because the amount of evidence and the time it would have taken to remove it was a long time. Nobody knew it happened until the case went to trial and they couldn't find the evidence.

OK I agree security in SR is at a much higher state then today, but why is a corp going to throw good money out the window to protect cars that are not worth all that attention.

And watchers are easier to sneak past then a astral mage or a hell hound.

Something else to consider, it really isn't cost effective to hire hellhounds and full time initiated combat mages to watch an old, busted up car. It seems a LOT more cost effective to get something like those wheel lock things and just put that on cars (except, of course, it would be something significantly meaner, cheaper and easier to apply. Perhaps some sort of giant magnet that keeps the computer shut down? I don't know. Just make some device thats easy to apply and difficult to unlock or break, and you simply cannot drive with it engaged.

Hmm. Good points about the magnets ETC. I'd imagine it'd be cheaper and faster to just activate all of the termination chips. Still some extra level of security would be useful to stop perople from breaking in, disabling the chip (or magnet, or whatever), and making off with the vehicle.

[edit]Well: I'm dumb. I just got the refference you were making to termination chips. DOH[/edit]

[edit]Electronics B/R 5 test with base time 10 minutes looks like the best way to go...[/edit]

Just thought this might be of interest, since a couple of months back we ran an impound scenario loosely cored in this discussion thread.

The agency was federal, specifically impounds based on caught smuggling coming into Seattle overland. The agents and infrastructure were not highly valued, and thus seriously underfunded, resulting in interesting cost-cutting measures at various levels. One result was that the agents were perfectly willing usually to let basic smuggling attempts slide (with the appropriate personal compensation, of course). Another was that nothing of real value "should" have ended up in impound. (Of course, mistakes are always made. The third garage floor was dedicated to the high-end corporate vehicles that somebody's son screwed up in, and which it was just a matter of time before they were "legally" sprung free by the Powers That Be. The run was intended to liberate another mistake: one of their Johnson's shipments had gone astray when a supervisor who wasn't supposed to be there had turned up at the customs post at the wrong time.)

The impound was a basic bricked-up multistory building, non-labelled, non-addressed. It took the team quite some time and talk to be able to identify it at all.

Overall security was very basic: man (vehicle)-trapped single point of garage entrance and further man-trapped entrance to the central security/rigger's office, the usual one-way bullet-proof glass, and a staff of six (counting the security rigger, standard non-exceptional patrollers, and a should-have-been-retired mage in something of a sinecured position). Security cameras. Drones ... but the proper ammunition for the drones and other crucial requisitions had been lost somewhere in paperwork, and for the time being, the staff were making do with pepper spray.

The first run in, the team actually found the garage doors open ... since they just also happened additionally to intersect with a second, better equipped and better organised team which was attempting to get their own vehicle back and which had much better Matrix overwatch. (Our team's NPC decker did charge his contact for his services ... even though he had not actually rendered them.)

Apart from running into the other team, our team thought this was a piece of cake, so they decided to return to try to liberate a really good vehicle or three. In the meantime, however, the impound staff had pulled out those requisition requests again, citing the previous break-in as proof that heightened security was needed. Someone listened.

That time, the drones had ammo ... among other surprises. And the team just barely limped home.

For those of you who are intrested I believe that the latest issue of TSS contained a brief blurb in Seattle 2063 on LSSS and Impound yards.

My own thoughts: Impound and evidence rooms are different entities.

An evidence room or locker would be where you would find any sort of items portable enough to store conveinantly until they can either be disposed of or used in court precedings. Once items have been used in court room proceedings I see them being either: returned to their lawful owners if they can be found; or prove ownership and the item is legal; or liscensed; or disposed of by either destroying (Common items I see possibly being destroyed would be weapons-makes for good PR( and good throw away pieces....)-magical items and compnents, as well as explosive devices), selling (Especially in the case of cybernetics,a nd maybe even organs? Depends on how dark you want your Star...) or keeping and issuing. (Discreetly mind you...)

An impound yard would be a large area used to hold vechiles primarily-Seattle is a port town so boats of various sizes could end up here too. ("Hey Lou want to take that boat we confiscated from those bums that tried to stick up that Ares ship on your fishing trip?") I think Impound Yards would bbe decentralized for conveinance-each major region would have their own as to cut down on the cost of transporting these items from various locations in Seattle for storage.

As for the staffing-well why pay a full fledged cop to do this sort of work? I could easily see it being subcontracted or staffed by noncertified staff.

Just my own thoughts.

One little twist that could make looting the good stuff out of an impound lot a little tricky is the possiblity that they would park in a lot of the vehicles. Might have to move ten cars to get the one you want. If they have a few real nice cars in a low security lot they might also secure them with an external lock of some kind, like those big yellow things they attatch to illegally parked cars in some places instead of impounding them. They might also stick a tracking bug sticker on the car for inventory/security purposes when it arrived.

Boots

Violaters will be clamped!

~J

Baltimore doesn't use them much. They have a fleet of wreckers to yank your car before you get 10 feet from it. DC on the other hand seems to love these things. They'll leave your car parked there throw a boot on it and then periodically come by to put another ticket under the wiper. After a few dozen tickets they come and get your car, shich incures another fine.

my group just pulled one of these. i'll list what i can from memory.

the impound was for the highly illegal stuff, but we only went for the vehicles as our rigger had his hoverdrone impounded. so he wanted us to go in and get it, so we agreed if we took everything there. the inventory was:

1 wasp
2 dobermans
1 strato9
1 seriously rigged nomad
1 decently rigged mpuv
1 LS americar patrol car (had been stolen)
1 LS 3220 turbo modded for street racing
1 brumby with hidden smuggling compartments
1 fairly stock roadmaster

total street value was about 1.6 million nuyen with all accessories.

security was:
1 onsite rigger in citymaster
8 guards wearing light security armor with assault rifles and a mix of wired and boosted
1 onsite mage with 2 elementals and watcher spirits

shift changes occured as follows:

the entire shift changed at once. the new shift rolled in via the citymaster and 2 squad cars. the two squad cars then escorted the leaving shift out in their citymaster.

response time was 10 minutes via ground, 3 via air. we cut power and phone but did not run into air support.

personal impounded items were in the basement, we left that there. all drugs, chips, ammo, etc. was there, we just took the vehicles and the drones.

response made it there in 8 minutes and the last vehicle out took a little damage because only 2 or 3 of us could drive worth a damn.

we left improvised spike strips in the road and a couple of borrowed vans in the way under cover of smoke grenades for the incoming pursuit. it took out the two unarmored vehicles that responded, the mage took out the armored vehicles.

Here in the Portland area, impounded cars are kept by the impounding tow yard. In other words, in a fenced, locked yard. Anyone who wants their stuff back can get it, if they really want it. I'm sure the gate is alarmed, but no big deal, right?
That's how it is here. I've been there. If you're a regular person worried about getting in trouble, it's secure, but it's not actually secure at all.