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kenny26
hi there.

i have ran into a problem regarding cyberlimbs and the devices you can build into them.
you see, my character has lost his right forearm and got it replaced by a cybernetic lower arm.
the problem arose when i caught sight of the cyberarm gyromount found in the M&M (p. 36). even though the arm could support the ECU in question for the device, the description staes that you have to have a full cyberarm in order to instal it.

and this is really bugging me...
talking with my friends about the problem, we reached the conclusion that the gyromount would need more room than a lower arm could offer (in spite of the 4 ECU) for the motor that has to propel the counterweights. the motor would have to be located in the upper arm while the mechanics and counterweights are councealed in the lower arm.

now for my question:
is there a way of working around the rules and somehow installing the gyromount in a partial cyberlimb?
would this have an essence cost like some build-in devices have?
or do you think the whole point about the gyromount having to be installed in a complete cyberarm is just misleading?

thanks in advance. smile.gif
Backgammon
I dont remember it saying you need a full limb... if so, that's just dumb, disregard it. Maybe it meant you had to have a cyberarm in the sense of you can't install it on a flesh arm. Cyberarm was probly used in the generic sense. A lower arm only should be good.
kenny26
QUOTE
It can only be installed in a full cyberarm or articulated arm.

This is what the book states...
spotlite
EDIT: <snip all the vehement claims that it must be ok>

Well, I think the canon is wrong on that, and I'll be houseruling that its possible in a partial. But its a houserule if that's what the book says.
Grey
I've had to agree that its pretty lame and I would houserule that as well.
kenny26
i also think that it seems possible to fit into a partial limb, but i'll need to convince my friends about this too...
one is claiming that there's not enough room for the counterweights and the motor in the lower arm, and that the motor has to be put somewhere in the upper arm.

when i tell him that the technology in 60 years will most likely allow motors to be build small enough, he disagrees completely.
can you help me with some arguments that the motor is small enough?
thanks again. smile.gif

edit: typo
spotlite
Aren't there rules somewhere for miniaturisation?

If they need examples of motors which are teeny tiny, point out to the the arachnid mini drone, which has to power eight legs, body joints, autoinjector if fitted, and haul around its weight, which is admittedly limited.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't gyroscopes kinda selfpowering, at least for a while? You set them running and they keep going till they run down, usually a goodly while later. You only need to apply thrust to keep the speed constant. I would say they don't use much in the way of power or motors. the 'scopes are fitted in the extending bit. the only thing you need to actually move are the panels and locking mechanisms that fold the extensions in and out, and enough juice to start and maintain the scopes when they slow down every few minutes.

Nah, partials are fine with me, unless someone who actually knows something about gyroscopic recoil compensation wahts to bitch slap me?
Grey
If you look at the picture of it in M&M, it even looks like it all goes in the forearm.
Kagetenshi
I'll have to check the picture, but I'd really think that to be solidly braced it'd have to go in the upper arm. I just don't see the advantages to one installed in the lower arm.

~J
Shockwave_IIc
Ok i've not been up long so if this makes no sense appolgese.

Maybe it's not a case of whether or not it would fit in a fore arm (since ECU indicates it would along with art) but whether or not it's intended effects would work. Maybe it needs the full arm for the effects to work, and having the partial just doesn't allow the effects?

Just half asleep ramblings.......
6thDragon
It could also be that parts of the gyromount are installed in the shoulder and elbow joints to prevent recoil. Makes sense to me al least.
Ol' Scratch
If it can function in an articulated arm (which can be a retractable component of a regular cyberarm itself if memory serves), I see no reason why it wouldn't work just fine in a forearm. As long as you fulfill the ECU requirement, you should be good to go.

Ugh, I do so loathe the rules for cyberlimbs.
Grey
Damnit, now I can't find the picture...

Wait, was it in one of the 2nd ed books? I just remember seeing it, but now I don't know where.
Zazen
Perhaps it is because the stabilization needs to be present throughout the whole arm rather than just the forearm. A non-cyber unit holds the gun on an entire arm, but a forearm-stabilizer would require the users own muscles to keep the elbow and shoulders steady. That might not be practical.

In mechanics terms, it's a pretty badass piece of 'ware. Requiring a large investment is fine with me.
Kagetenshi
The articulated arm is "usually anchored to a cybertorso in the middle of the back." It can be retractable, and admittedly nothing specifically forbids it being in a cyberarm, which is a pity because everything would make a lot more sense if it did.

~J
kenny26
the fact that it can be installed in an articulated arm puzzles me...
the articulated arm is installed in a cyber torso and takes up 7 ECU (which is the max. for an obvious cyber torso) but there's no tables detailing ECU for the articulated arm... indifferent.gif

and claiming that a full cyber arm is needed in order to achieve the recoil compensation is nonsense to me, because the articulated arm by itself grants 3 points of recoil compensation, which i can only imagine would come from the arm itself.
and the book states very clearly that the gyromount will work with an articulated arm. so claiming that the gyromount gets part of the RC from stabilising components throughout the cyberarm makes no sense.
because in that case the gyromount would not give the full 3 points of RC because the articulated arm already has stabilising components build into it...
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (kenny26)
so claiming that the gyromount gets part of the RC from stabilising components throughout the cyberarm makes no sense, because in that case the gyromount would not give the full 3 points of RC because the articulated arm already has stabilising components build into it...

You should know better than to argue that a house rule would be sensible based on an actual canon ruling... nyahnyah.gif Because if we're actually going for all-sense, nevermind what canon says, we might argue that it makes no sense that an Articulated Arm gets RC free.

I'd never allow an Articulated Arm anywhere but the torso, and I can live with knowing that it's probably a house rule. I wouldn't allow Gyromount for a Cyber Forearm either, because, like some people have been saying, it makes sense that the system would require the stability granted by a full Cyberarm connected directly to the torso.

I agree with canon rules on something! And it has to do with Recoil Compensation AND Cyberlimbs! W00t!
Buzzed
You know what would be really cool? Install a gun on the top of your cyberskull with a pair of independent cybereyes. A gyro in your neck. That would complete the nifty tin-man look.
Austere Emancipator
Or better yet, an austinpowers-esque fembot! You know, with the CyberSMGs in the, you know...
Nevermind...
Jason Farlander
Umm... gyroscopes are self stabilizing. The rapid rotation of the gyroscope, by itself, holds the gyroscope in place and resists forces (such as gravity or recoil) that would move the gyroscope in ways that arent exactly perpendicular fo the rotational axis (rotational inertia, the laws of physics, etc) A person using the gyroscopic stabilizer could aim a weapon by moving it in a series of perpendicular lines (like stairsteps).

The upwards recoil from a gun would follow an arc, restricted by the attachment of the gun to your wrist and elbow. Since the force of the recoil is applied in a way that is not perpendicular to the axis of rotation, the gyroscope will resist this motion, providing recoil compensation.

So... the argument that the gyromount requires additional stabilization is kinda silly.

One argument I might agree with in favor of the canon requirement, however, is that the motions required to rapidly aim a gun using the system are rather different than what most people would normally use. Since the system doesn't use any essence, it probably isn't wired to the brain with modified gun-aiming instructions when the system is active. Perhaps the ECU cost of the thing involves modifications to the cyberlimb that make perpendicular hand motions more natural... or something. In any case, a couple of reasonable ways to house-rule it would be that either the penalties for firing at a moving target or at multiple targets would be doubled unless it is installed in a full cyberarm, or, perhaps, that the gyromount has an essence cost (somewhere between .2 and .5, probably) unless it is installed in a full limb.
Austere Emancipator
You know, I never really gave much thought to the whole "gyro" aspect of the Gyromounts... Mostly I just think of Gyromount as a nice name for a stabilized weapon mount, whether it has any gyros inside or not. The reason for this being exactly what you said about the aiming: A wearable gyro-Gyromount would make maneuvering the weapon a nightmare.

But it's nice to know that someone smarter than me agrees with me, at least to some degree, even if it's for different reasons...
Ol' Scratch
I'm just curious about how it's supposed to work. Don't gyroscopes really just stablize movement perpendicular to the plane they're spinning on (ie, keeping it from tilting over) for the most part? If so and it's the wrist that's spinning, how does that provide much much recoil compensation coming from your hand jerking up when you shoot? Wouldn't the gyroscope need to be spinning on the same plane as the weapon's aimed to be much use?

I mean... every time I played with one it was pretty easy to push it on the side and cause it to go all over the place. Or do I just not remember correctly?
Jason Farlander
I've always just assumed that they had multiple counterweights spinning... at least two, on the top (or bottom) and side of the gyroscope. Even if there was only one, though, it would still offer some resistance... the toy gyroscopes people play with dont really spin fast enough to provide a great deal of counterforce, but theyre still a lot more difficult to move and knock over than they would be if they werent spinning.

Then again... it might just be as farfetched as you mention. I'm willing to look past that for the most part, as this is *the future*... however, if such a thing could work, thats how.
Dende
I would have to assume for purposes of using the gun, the gyros aren't on the whole time, or as a distinguished fellow mentioned, it would be an aiming nightmare.

Instead it is my belief that the gyros aren't "powered" per se, but instead the forse of the bu8llet leaving the gun is somehow harness into a spinning of the gyros, such that the gyros begin spinning upon firing, thus stabilizing the recoil, not the gun permanantly...Though since the gun is still easy to aim after that, I would have to assume High Friction Gyros that stop providing support VERY quickly for release of the next shot.
Zazen
QUOTE
I mean... every time I played with one it was pretty easy to push it on the side and cause it to go all over the place. Or do I just not remember correctly?


I guess you'd have to play with one of those bicycle-tire-with-handles toys that to really feel what they do. It's hard to describe how rotational forces stack without pictures (and not having touched the stuff for three years or so). I'll try using as plain language as I can muster without too many stupid mistakes.


Imagine you've got a bicycle tire in your wrist, just like this cyberware. Draw a line perpendicular to the way it's spinning, i.e. out of the bicycle axis pointed towards wherever you're pointing your wrist.

If you tilt your wrist, you're actually spinning it. Draw a line perpendicular to the way you're tilting it, through the "axis". i.e. if you tilt it up (like recoil), draw a line to the right. This is the same as if the tire were spinning upwards (so that you were looking at the treads) with the axis pointing left-right.

What happens is that the line from the tire and the line from your wrist tilting combine into one line. They use vector-addition which is a fancy way of saying that they combine the way you'd think they combine. (If one is north and the other is east, they combine to 45 degrees northeast. If the north line is much longer than the east line, it'll point mostly north and only a little bit east, and so on) The tire line is much longer than the wrist-tilt line (the tire is spinning faster than the recoil action, hopefully) and so the combined line will be mostly towards the target. That represents a new axis around which your wrist-tire system will spin. Since the tire is really doing all the spinning, it strives to take up the new axis (which is a little to the right of the target now).


What all this means is that when you tilt your wrist up, it will pull slightly to the side instead. You'll notice that with a top too. When it starts to slow down it leans to the side and the lean starts to spin slowly. Instead of falling over from the pull of gravity, it keeps going sideways in relation to gravity's pull.
kenny26
the powering of the gyros is a problem.
i don't know where, but i saw someone mentioning the fact that it had no essence cost and as such, could not be reflectively activated.
but this problem can be worked around with a DNI or a router (i don't remeber excactely which one, but i'll find out when the time comes).

QUOTE
A wearable gyro-Gyromount would make maneuvering the weapon a nightmare.


i must agree on this too. but i usuall don't aim for more than one or two opponents at a time. it's already a bit too hard with the +2 TN...
but if the gyro could be activated via a DNI, the problem about aiming the damn thing is solved.

but getting back to the engine, i would think that the gyros were electricly powered. and a battery can be build small enough to fit inside the lower arm, and the motor wouldn't be much bigger either.
and the battery can be recharged by body heat when necessarry.

based on what Zazen wrote, i belive the gyro will work even if it's only installed in a partial cyberarm.
after all, the arm can support the ECU, which to me is saying that there's enough room inside the arm.
Kagetenshi
It could probably connect to the cyberlimb's DNI.

~J
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
It could probably connect to the cyberlimb's DNI.

But then couldn't any other piece of gear in a Cyberlimb?
Kagetenshi
Shh! wink.gif

Are any of the other pieces of cybergear that take essence in a cyberlimb simple on/off switches?

~J
Zazen
Yes nyahnyah.gif
Kagetenshi
Which ones? nyahnyah.gif *doesn't have copy of M&M right now*

~J
DIABLO@magenet.org
@Grey.

The picture was in Cybertechnology, Second Edition.
snowRaven
And in 2nd edition it had an essence cost of 1.5 and a cost of 260,000. The text suggests that you bought an entirely new arm, even though the picture indicates modification only to the wrist.

[edit]There was supposed to be a 'picture' of sorts here, but this forum apparently doesn't allow for multiple spaces very well. For those without Cybertechnology, the picture shows two counterweights which can fold into the arm when the gyromount isn't used, a gyro in the center behind the wrist, and hints at an engine right behind the gyro.[/edit]

Now, for my 2 cents worth on the topic at hand. It could very well be that there are necessary modifications to the elbow, and possibly shoulder - maybe to prevent certain movements which during firing could screw up the efficiency of the gyro.

Lastly, if your gm decides that the 'common' cyberarm gyromount can't fit in a cyber forearm, maybe he will let you hunt down some less common, or experimental, system to provide recoil compensation. Maybe a system using pneumatic pistons in the wrist for recoil suppression. Or maybe he will let you have modifications to the elbow/shoulder with similar costs as for strength enhancements level 4 and above for cyberlimbs.
Ol' Scratch
It's either that or someone was just cutting-and-pasting text from one book to the other without really thinking about what it was saying or other changes they had made. They seemed to have done that in a few other pleaces, such as with the Enchephalon's prices vs. the grossly toned down abilities thereof; 1.5 Essence and 115,000 nuyen just for a Task Pool of 2. That's pretty insane. smile.gif
Kagetenshi
Why, what did the encephalon do in previous editions?

~J
Ol' Scratch
For the Essence and Price, an Enchephalon 2 is equivalence to what the Enchephalon 4 was in Shadowtech. If memory serves, an Enchephalon 4 granted, +2 Intelligence +3 Task Pool, and the ability to use Skillsofts to a limited degree. Or in other words, the equivelnce of an Enchephalon 2, Cerebral Booster 2, and a Knowsoft Link in 3rd Edition rules. For the exact same price and about the same Essence (I think it was 1.75 vs. 1.5 now).
Jason Farlander
There were 4 levels of encephalon, and 1/2 the level of the encephalon (rounded up) was added directly to intelligence. It also provided (level - 1) task pool dice. Any level of encephalon replaced the need for a knowsoft link. Cost ranged from 15,000/.5 E (+1 int, no TP) to 115,000/1.75 E (+2 int, +3 TP).

Edit: Don't forget that the current incarnation of the Encephalon also adds a virtual increase to intelligence for the purpose of learning intelligence-based skills, but not for perception tests.
Kagetenshi
Meep?
A lot of the work in SR3 seems to be reactionary; things that were too friggin' good in previous editions have been made nigh-useless but kept ungodly expensive.

~J
Siege
Some of the tweaks in SR3 were good, some weren't.

The encephalon 4 was a walking computer, tack on the cerebral booster and you had, for all practical purposes, a brainpod wired to a deck.

I never saw any real complications with the gadget as written in 2nd, although there was some debate as to whether or not it augmented magic in the same fashion as the cerebral booster. grinbig.gif

-Siege
Jason Farlander
I understand where they were coming from with the changes (I don't think the encephalon should add to perception tests or contribute to magical ability), but simply adding a sentence to the old description to clarify those two things would have been a reasonable way to handle it.

Ol' Scratch
I'm pretty sure the old Enchephalon had a sentence that said it didn't augment magic at all.
Siege
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
I'm pretty sure the old Enchephalon had a sentence that said it didn't augment magic at all.

Not calling you wrong, but I thought the same thing --> but apparently some copy somewhere didn't and there was a thread debating the topic.

For the record, I agree -- it shouldn't.

-Siege
Jason Farlander
Whoops... my copy does have such a sentence. At the very bottom of the description: "The encephalon does not boost magical ability." For some reason I just totally missed that... oh well
Zazen
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Which ones? nyahnyah.gif *doesn't have copy of M&M right now*

The Cyber Holster springs immediately to mind. I don't really feel like pouring over my books either, but I'm sure there's plenty more.
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