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DocTaotsu
I have a player who is keen on learning the Invoking metamagic, he envisions himself riding around on the back of a Greater Guardian spirit who he calls "Haggis". While I hate stomping on players for their love of twinkies I've been getting the vibe that Invocation might be a big bag of game breaking badness. So I ask this:

1. Has anyone actually used Invocation in a game yet?

2. What were the results?

3. If there is stupid power that comes out of this, how do you limit it?

4. Roleplaying guidance so I can make this more than him rolling dice and getting a bigger better spirit for me to hit with mana static. I mean uhm.. erm...
deek
The mage in my group has Invoking. He has yet to use it. Is been at least 6 months since he created the character.

Granted, he's not big into binding spirits, so this is probably what is preventing me from seeing how Invoking works in gameplay. He's actually wanting to initiate again and trade out Invoking for something else.
cryptoknight
I've dealt with and run players against great form elementals.

One player had a great form earth ele, and they had to deal with a great form water ele.

The thing that I find annoying is that to get the great form powers requires 5 hits... if you get 6+ you don't get them... at least according to the invoking test table on page 57 of Street Magic. Now the errata says that the results are cumulative. Which makes them a bit scarier than we had them (we just let the greater form created with 6+ hits also get the greater form power).

In either case, the biggest scary thing is the Greater Form Power (which I wish they had more than one to choose from per spirit).

A Force 8 Greater Water Spirit can generate a storm that does damage to an area 800 or so meters wide. That sort of made me nervous thinking about it... Magic 8 + Unarmed combat 8 as a suppressive fire test against everything in an 800m radius for a base DV of 8. Suppressive Fire is Reaction + Edge vs it.. The storm is going to slaughter a large number of people.
Tarantula
The balance? The drain.

Take a force 6 spirit for example. Regular summoning is average of 2 hits, for 4S drain for them to resist. Not too horrible. Next, they go to invoke (done as part of binding) this is against Forcex2, so 12 dice for this one. Average 4 hits. This would be 8S, except that because it is an invoked spirit, it increases by 50%. So, 12S. (And this assumes the mage gets at least 6 hits, for 2 net hits, (since with only 1 hit, the invoking fails).

And, to get a great form power out of it, they would need 9 hits (for 5 net hits). Its hard to succeed with high force spirits.
Stahlseele
ah yes, remember the good old times of SR3 Great Form power of QUAKE? *g*
Force Radius kilometers of pure Destruction . . now a Force 8 Great Form was something REALLY scary in SR3, but that was extreme . . you could have levelled most of the great plexes/sprawls with one of those per city . .
IC-Pick
My Magician has Invoking. I can say that it does allow alot more power. Be ready to be unconscious for a while if you are summoning high level great spirits.... they get more dice to resist you than normal spirits. Granted, its not hard to munchkin out dice. I have 2 or 3 great spirits in my pocket, but depending upon how much money you are making, they can get expensive to utilize.

Just remember the equalizer... Mana Static.... it wipes spirits in the AoE out immediately if you can cast it at > or = spirit level, regardless of whether or not you sustain it until permanent. If not, just maintain it until a second person goes over and hits/shoots/spits at the rating 1 great spirit.
Tarantula
QUOTE (cryptoknight @ Apr 23 2008, 08:23 AM) *
I've dealt with and run players against great form elementals.

One player had a great form earth ele, and they had to deal with a great form water ele.

The thing that I find annoying is that to get the great form powers requires 5 hits... if you get 6+ you don't get them... at least according to the invoking test table on page 57 of Street Magic. Now the errata says that the results are cumulative. Which makes them a bit scarier than we had them (we just let the greater form created with 6+ hits also get the greater form power).

In either case, the biggest scary thing is the Greater Form Power (which I wish they had more than one to choose from per spirit).

A Force 8 Greater Water Spirit can generate a storm that does damage to an area 800 or so meters wide. That sort of made me nervous thinking about it... Magic 8 + Unarmed combat 8 as a suppressive fire test against everything in an 800m radius for a base DV of 8. Suppressive Fire is Reaction + Edge vs it.. The storm is going to slaughter a large number of people.


Yeah, so lets see, first, they have to conjure that force 8 spirit.... So, spirit gets an average of 3 hits on its summoning test. Magician would need to get at least 4 on the summoning test to retain the spirit. (Means at least a 12DP for summoning). Mage then has to resist 6P (most likely) which would need 18 dice to be able to do that on average (not that important, as long as it doesn't kill him he can get first-aid and probably get it patched up). Then, he has to bind/invoke the spirit.... which gets 16 dice, average of 5 hits (for 15P drain, remember, invoked is +50%), and the mage must get at least 5 net hits on his invoking test to grant the spirit a great form power. Most likely, the mage passes out/dies from the drain, and the spirit goes off happy as can be.
DTFarstar
If I recall correctly, sans books at the moment as I'm actually on campus, the Invoking Test and the Binding test are different tests and you get something like the Force of the spirit as a positive modifier to the invoking test. Provided when we ran Great Forms(I am currently, in a game on hiatus, a Hedge Witch with channeling and invoking, and I have GM'd with a player who had invoking on normal spirits) we didn't read this completely wrong, then you summon it, bind it with a 50% increase in drain, then immediately make an invoking test which is binding DP+ force of spirit. The thing you have to watch for is edge. I used edge invoking a Force 4 Air Elemental and got 11 hits and used edge invoking a Force 3 Plant elemental and got like 13 or 14 hits. Now, for me, as a possession tradition, that just made my stats awesome. Something like +11 to physical stats up to Natural max + Force x 1.5. But, I built the character as a healer(possession spirits with regen are the best healers ever.) So I don't have the skills to take advantage of it and am just about as good as the rest of the party at everything physical.

The player I Gm'd against tried the same thing I just described with low force spirits(for lots of services and little chance of death) and edging the invoking test and I just mana static'd the damn things when appropriate. I let him have his fun when he got high force ones, though, I mean you truly risk death at anything higher than your magic. You come close at Force 5 or 6 even if the damage is still stun. They get a good roll and you go down. Then again, I've had a Force 6 spirit, without edge, resist me with 11 hits on binding. If I hadn't had a magic of 6 I would have been dead. As it was I was unconscious and hemmorraging from the eyes. Add invoking to that and the 22S becomes 33S and you die anyway, more likely than not.

So, be prepared to MS the little guys, especially if he edges his invoking test for them, but they don't break the game more than normal spirits in my experience, otherwise. If he wants to invoke a relatively high level spirit, especially one he named, let him have it and just know that eventualy he will be burning edge for the thing. Especially since when rebinding it is still at the higher damage value of invoking and if he rebinds often enough the thing will use edge to try and escape. So, don't MS his big bad Earth Elemental(provided it is high enough force to have a decent chance at killing him), just realize that he's going to burn through services and kill himself soon enough.

Chris
Tarantula
You're right. I missed that the force of the spirit counts as a bonus for invoking it. Still makes the drain a PITA though.
DTFarstar
Not sure what PITA stands for, but yeah, like I said unless you summon low force spirits and edge the invoking test then it is barely worth it because you take your life in your hands every time you do it.

Chris
Stahlseele
PITA = Pain In The Ass
cryptoknight
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Apr 23 2008, 09:52 AM) *
Yeah, so lets see, first, they have to conjure that force 8 spirit.... So, spirit gets an average of 3 hits on its summoning test. Magician would need to get at least 4 on the summoning test to retain the spirit. (Means at least a 12DP for summoning). Mage then has to resist 6P (most likely) which would need 18 dice to be able to do that on average (not that important, as long as it doesn't kill him he can get first-aid and probably get it patched up). Then, he has to bind/invoke the spirit.... which gets 16 dice, average of 5 hits (for 15P drain, remember, invoked is +50%), and the mage must get at least 5 net hits on his invoking test to grant the spirit a great form power. Most likely, the mage passes out/dies from the drain, and the spirit goes off happy as can be.



No... The 5 hits comes from the invoking test made after the binding is done on the spirit.
QUOTE (Street Magic Page 57)
The
Drain from that binding ritual is increased by 50 percent
(round up). If the ritual succeeds, the initiate immediate
takes a Complex Action and makes an Invoking Test, rolling
Magic + Binding. The bound spirit’s Force is added as a
dice pool bonus. The hits scored on the Invoking Test determine
how successfully the initiate transforms the spirit into
a great form spirit and expands its natural abilities, as noted
on the Invoking Test table.


If you make the drain test and are still standing you get say 5 (magic) + 5 (binding) + 8 (spirit's force) + Edge(?) dice to roll. 5-6 hits isn't out of the picture.
Stahlseele
invoke plant spirit with safe level using edge and get regeneration, let yourself be possessed by said spirit and summon and invoke BIGGER spirit . . yeah, munchy as hell *g*
WeaverMount
While I don't think things would get pun-pun scale bad, what scares me is endowment. Evey time I've seem a power like this in any game it gets retarded quick. Like a magician speced for conning with extended masking, mind probe and alter memory. Endow that guy possession and you have a virtually perfect one man infiltrator.

Now for the total cheese, you can by RAW endow endowment. On say someone with HMHVV. Who could endow the sammie with say essence drain and not essence loss. Or great dragon giving their agents twist fate. The other flaw with the rules is that they use a rules object called "critter powers" as the mechanism to add all new "code" to critters, i.e. essence loss, astral form, and sapience. Those are aspects of one's nature not really powers but per se; except they are in SR4. So you should also be able to endow things with sapience.

Edit: Also there is no resist test for endowment. Think about how many people you could tool by "gifting" them with Astral Form.
Fortune
QUOTE (WeaverMount @ Apr 24 2008, 07:44 AM) *
Also there is no resist test for endowment. Think about how many people you could tool by "gifting" them with Astral Form.


You can't give someone Astral Form through Endowment. This will be in the next Errata.
WeaverMount
Cool. One hole patched. Still broken. I hope they errata endowing endowment to.

Also any thoughts on blood spirits and invoking?
Fortune
Endowment (and a couple of other things) will also be on the list, if I remember correctly. smile.gif
Stahlseele
the worst part about endowment is females with that and the obvious bad joke about them being well endowed *g*
Rasumichin
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Apr 23 2008, 05:07 PM) *
invoke plant spirit with safe level using edge and get regeneration, let yourself be possessed by said spirit and summon and invoke BIGGER spirit . . yeah, munchy as hell *g*


I'm quite certain that regen doesn't work that way in SR4, as it does not heal magical damage.
And as physical drain is explicitly exempt from magical healing, too, there's double reason to assume that, at least by RAI, regen doesn't do crap about drain.

Loop fixed.
Tarantula
What'd work better, is invoking task spirits, with the first aid skill, and have them fix up your drain you take as you continue to invoke and summon stronger and stronger ones.
Dashifen
QUOTE (cryptoknight @ Apr 23 2008, 09:23 AM) *
In either case, the biggest scary thing is the Greater Form Power (which I wish they had more than one to choose from per spirit).


Nah, the Great Form Powers are not the problem. They're showing and you can't exactly pull out a Storm or Quake without someone noticing. Endowment, Astral Gateway, Compulsion, and Regeneration are less flashy than the other powers, true.

However, the truly awesome part is that at 4 hits, all LOS powers can be used as LOS(A) powers and the spirit can choose to avoid hitting friendlies with their new area-of-effect powers!! Need a gang to go away: use a Spirit of Man's new LOS(A) Influence powers. What if you want gridlock? LOS(A) Accident powers seem to foot the bill. That's not to mention the fun of engulfing a whole group of baddies.

Stahlseele
LOS Regeneration would be pretty nifty as a group-buff O.o
Tarantula
QUOTE (Dashifen @ Apr 25 2008, 08:48 AM) *
LOS(A) Accident powers


Get ambushed by the enemy security team?
Being chased by just about anything?
Worried about that guy whos gonna start shooting grenades off?
Car chase?

That is just too useful. ork.gif
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