Ok, so Karate and Aikido are martial arts that don't use weapons (as far as I know). However, they both give bonuses for "Full Parry". Shouldn't there be a difference between "Full Parry" (when you have a weapon to parry with) and "Full Block" (when unarmed)? The BBB states that Full Parry can be used both unarmed or with a weapon. Was it the intent to make karate martial artists better at parrying with a sword? It seems a bit weird to me.

Also, does the bonus to "melee block" apply when you use "Full Parry" unarmed? Or does it apply only to regular melee block defense, but not to Full Parry? I find the language used confusing as it doesn't seem to mean the same thing all the time.

Not a popular thread, I guess...

My biggest question though is about karate. If you take "melee block" twice and "Full Parry", do you get +3 when you do an unarmed Full Parry?

From the black box on page 156 of Arsenal "A character gains the advantages of all martial arts styles she knows; should they overlap,these dice modifiers stack."
[Edit] Also says you only get a number of benefits = to your relevant combat skill.

No, the text is, "Advantages: +1 DV on Unarmed Combat attacks; +1 die for Full Parry; +1 die on melee block (but not dodge or parry) Defense Tests (may be taken twice for a cumulative +2 dice)"
So, obviously, melee block doesn't stack with full parry.

There is block, parry or dodge in melee combat(per 147 SR4). Then there is also Full Parry which is a Full Defense option. The more relevant question is whether does whatever that affects Dodge count towards Full Dodge and likewise do Block/Parry count towards Full Parry?

If your GM counts them as seperate, that is, for example, Dodge do not count towards Full Dodge, then no, they do not stack. However, it is obvious that there is sufficient ambiguity to me that it can be read bothways.

But see, the problem I have with that is that the language used is not consistent. When not in Full Defense, you "block" when unarmed and "parry" with a weapon. Karate means "empty hand", yet studying it gives you a bonus when you Full Parry with a sword?!? I know you can say "Not part of the style, so it doesn't apply", but I think it would have been sooooo easy to just distinguish between "Full Parry" (with a weapon) and "Full Block" (when unarmed).

My understanding of the karate bonus for Full Parry is that it is a bonus for a "Full Block" rather than a "Full Parry", even though I am aware that it is not worded in that way. And an unarmed Full Parry sounds to me like a kind of "melee block". I understand that the language is different. I'm just trying to understand the writers' intentions on those things.

Yeah, that is the very core of the question.

[EDIT: I guess I'll just run some test and choose the stack/don't stack option that seems most reasonable.]

There is no need for that. Full Parry is a Full Defense option that applies equally to armed and unarmed since it uses the relevant melee combat skill.

I'm not sure I'm following where you're going with this... If I get a +1 die for Full Parry from "empty hands" karate, would you give me the bonus when I Full Parry with a sword?

[EDIT: The reason I suggested using "Full Parry" and "Full Block" is that it would make it clearer when and where a given bonus applies. To me, it doesn't make much sense that karate would give a bonus to parrying with a sword.]

I would give Full Parry bonus to parrying with a weapon that I feel is appropriate to the martial art in question. For karate, that could mean sai, tonfa, nunchaku, etc.

Karate has 2 bonuses, one is a +1 to full parry only. The other is +1 (can be taken twice) to a block only, and explicitly states not to dodge or parry. Thusly, if you take all 3, you get +1 when parrying with a weapon, +2 when blocking, and +2 when full parrying without a weapon (also called full block).

You make it sound like it's obvious, but it could be interpreted as +2 when blocking, +3 when Full Blocking and +1 when Full Parrying, or just +2 when blocking and +3 when Full Blocking depending on whether you split the Full Parry bonus into Full Parry and Full Block [with the karate bonus being for Full Block only] or just apply the Full Parry bonus to both.

I'm looking forward to the Arsenal FAQ for that reason, but hey! if a developer is around, a quick answer would be extremely appreciated.

If I call it a Full Block, it's not a parry and the Melee Block bonuses apply?

As long as there is a reasonable limit on interupt actions (seperate thread), I see no problems with the bonuses stacking.

Its a full block when you are not using a weapon skill, and are instead using unarmed combat. It is a full parry when you are using a weapon skill (not unarmed combat).

Except that there is no such thing as a Full Block. Full Defense with unarmed or with a melee weapon are both called Full Parry.

So, if I'm not using a weapon, it's not a parry or dodge and the melee block bonus applies for a total of +3.
If I am using a weapon (assuming it's appropriate to the style), it's a parry and only the +1 bonus applies.

I hate quoting myself, with emphasis for you this time...



You got it.

Says who?

The rules pretty clearly state there are SEVEN options for melee defense. Parry, block, dodge, as well as Parry + Full Defense, Block + Full Defense, and Dodge + Full Defense. Not to mention the actual Full Parry option (Reaction + melee skill + melee skill). The mitigating factor being whether you are holding a weapon or not, or if you just plain decide to move out of the way.

If you don't want to call Block + Full Defense by the term "Full Block", then fine. But I'm not sure why there is confusion in this. +1 die for Full Parry pretty clearly only applies to 1 form of melee defense: Full Defense w/ melee skill x2 instead of the melee skill + Dodge. +1 (or +2) die for block pretty clearly applies to 2 defense options: Block and Block + Full Defense.

The real question should be: Can you Full Parry while unarmed?

To avoid any further confusion here is the relevant text from each book:




And while I have not personally taken karate, many of my friends have, and some of them have indeed received weapons training, so +1 to parry is not completely unrealistic, historically speaking.

I've whipped up the following table to show the various defense options (ignoring Gymnastics Dodge):
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=p9s...ND957QtYFRIjeKA

Just add Reaction to each one, obviously.

+1 Full Parry only applies to one option. +2 to block really only applies to 2 options.

It seems to me that this stuff is all pretty basic and I'm mildly annoyed that we can talk about it for some time and still not reach a solid consensus.

Oh! Well...

[EDIT: Your reading does make sense, but it still doesn't answer all questions, sadly, as you pointed out yourself. So the quest continues...]