Just figured I'd post few of my ideas that my Shadowrunners have used as interesting and creative ways of non-violently dealing with Lone Star. Thought it might serve as a repository for different ideas people have to get away from the cops without it turning into a shootout.

Say you get pulled over. Doesn't really matter why, but you are chock full of illegal ware and your car alone could get you arrested.

When this happened to one of my PC's I waited till the cop came over, rolled down the window and handed him 1000 cash when he asked for my ID. Said "Hello officer. I'm sorry but there must me a mistake. Why don't you get on the radio and tell your station that you made an error? I'm going to drive away now. I suggest you let me do so. Take your wife and kids out to dinner on me. Otherwise this lovely evening is going to end very badly for both of us, and probably worse for you."

Of course that was in 3rd ed. In 4th you could just do the whole thing wirelessly before he even pulls you over.

It's a reasonable approach. The drawback is that you, as a character, don't know how well it worked until a few minutes later.

You certainly DON'T want to do a credit transfer. Records are kept of these and the LS guy isn't dumb.

... imperialus, I like your way of thinking.

You know, that's the one thing I lament about the Wireless thing. You can't just fold a $50 in your Driver's License, and pass it to the cop. Or "Accidentily" hand over a Certified CredStick rather than your Registered CredStick, like in the above issue.

The advantage of the Wireless issue is that Lazy Cops can just pull someone over, demand the License and Registration, and tell a person their taillight is out without getting out into the rain and seeing the guy in the car.

Well it's been my experience that GM's are usually thrilled when PC's come up with smart ways to get out of situations without bloodshed. It saves killing a bunch of PC's and stating up a bunch of Lone Star goons to take them down.

Another one we did in 4th ed was when we got pulled over our Face distracted the cops while I hacked their vehicle radio and sent an officer down message in the middle of Redmond. Then we went home and watched that on the news.

Despite the corruption that is inherent in LS, there is always a possibility that the cop will be an idealist (or a rookie) and play it by the book and bust you for bribery. If the illegal goods are sufficiently hidden from clear sight, than the cop should have no reason to start looking for them unless you give him a reason. Bribing the cop unnecessarily will be sufficient casuse to have your car searched. Easiest way to avoid confrontation is not give up more information than necessary, don't look like you're hiding anything, and try to talk you way out with just a ticket. And of course, there's no guarantee that it'll just be one cop. I would imagine in 2070 it would be standard operating procedure that each patrol cruiser would have two cops in it. If the reason the character got pulled over becuase he was riding around in a stolen car, than it would be pretty hard for LS cops to simply ignore that fact.

well success does depend on how competent/corruptible your GM plays the cops. That discussion has been hashed out over and over again on DS. It isn't going to work for every group and besides, if he tries to bust you for bribery thats when you punch him in the face with your handrazors extended and speed away. It also depends on what you think you're getting pulled over for. If you genuinely can't think of anything illegal you've done then just hand him your rating 6 SIN that has the car registered to it and pay your speeding ticket or whatever the next day. This is more if you have cause to believe he will want to search your car anyhow.

Except for Manpower Issues. Don't forget that the Cops were Outsorced to be "Cheaper", you pay for that in some other way.

And it's not like they could just hire a bunch of people in India to work Police Services over the Matrix.

Of course, by 2070, it'd be more likely Indians cursing at all these UCASers and CASers with thick accents tryinig to walk them through Tech Support.

The LS guy isn't stupid. You've just suggested you intend to go to guns. If he chooses to not take the bribe and go away he's going to take the money and call for backup if he's smart. If he's not so smart he's still going to move such that you can't easily attack him before he does anything else.

I think the solution is to have eyebeams.

"Hello officer, here's my..."

KRAZAAAP

Actually the using wireless to avoid personal contact would likely be a very common practice. Firstly out of laziness, secondly out of not risking LOS with a magician.

or cybereyes with 15 of 16 capacity given over to grenade launchers >_<

From: GHermann//UNATCO.15431.76513
To: JManderley//UNATCO.00013.76490
Cc: ANavarre//UNATCO.9954.1131
Subject: Skul-gun

Might I sugest agin, a skul-gun for my head. Yesterday in Batery Park, some
scum we all know pushes smack for NSF gets jumpy and draws. I take 2 .22's,
1 in flesh, 1 in augs, befor I can get out that dam asalt gun.

If I could kil just by thought, it would be beter. Is it my job to be a
human target-practis backstop?

Gunther Hermann



http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/deusex/show...&pid=250533

"I need to see your identification."

*Waves Hand* "You don't need to see my identification."

"I don't need to see your identification."

*Waves Hand* "We can go about our business."

"You can go about your business."

*Waves Hand* "Move along."

"Move along. Move along."

cliched, but I bet it happens. I could see 1 in a 10,000 people knowing that spell and a most of them doing things that would get them pulled over because they know it wont matter.

Cliched, hell. Jedi is a legit religion in England (Enough people put it on their census!), and I can see it as an actual practice of Magic in Shadowrun!

Rare, but it's there.

I know I'm poaching the idea from someone else here, but there is bound to be a "The Force" tradition out there somewhere for the simple reason that magic works because you want it to in this world. And some nerd out there wants it that bad

And has probably been working on a "Lightsabre" spell for a long, long time...

Repeat after me: "No sir, you may not search my vehicle." "No sir, you may not search my bag."

"You may not search my X", where X is an item that the officer has requested permission to search or is attempting to search without a warrant, is the single most important phrase you can utter to a police officer. It is your Constitutional right to refuse to allow a search of your personal belongings. It is one that you should always exercise even if you have nothing to hide simply because it is a fundamental aspect of human freedom that should never be treated cheaply or taken for granted. And, more importantly, it should always be exercised because there are illegal drugs in your vehicle and in your bag. I have seen enough episodes of Cops to know this to be a fact. There are illegal drugs in your bag and in your vehicle. You don't know that they are there, but they are.

String theory posits many dimensions in addition to the four that we are aware of but we cannot interact with these dimensions because they're all rolled up into tinny little spool too small to detect. One of these extra dimensions exists in your washing machine or in your dryer. It is where all your left socks go when they mysteriously vanish on laundry day. Another of these dimensions exists in your bag or in your car. It is filled with illegal drugs. On occasion, it will open up just a little and some of these drugs will spill out. If you let a police officer search your vehicle or your bag then those mysterious drugs that you are completely unaware of will be found and it will be assumed that they are yours and then you end up going to prison for possessing drugs that just fell out of another dimension without your knowledge. So never ever ever give permission to search.

This holds true in Shadowrun as it does in real life. The best police when pulled over by the police is to act calm and deny permission to search because if you deny such permission then they can't search. Record this denial on your cyberears if possible because you may have no choice but to use it in court if that denial is ignored.

Needless to say, bribe is an evil dirty word. What you want are "tips" (or "gratuities") and "fines". If you are aware of a crime in progress and wish a specific police officer to do something about it then you give him a gratuity for his trouble. Generally, the amount of this gratuity depends on how important it is to you that the crime be stopped. If you wish for an officer to avoid patrolling in an area for whatever reason, then you also give him a gratuity for his trouble. The amount of this gratutity depends on how imporant it is to you that no one patrol in that area. If an officer pulls you over and finds illegal weapons weapons on your person then you calmly ask "how much is my fine". The officer will then give you a figure. This figure will be substantially less than you are willing to pay unless you are a total moron. You pay it and go on your way and the officer forgets to file the paperwork. It is as simple as that. If the officer asks you if you have any illegal weapons or items you respond honestly because he is permitted to search you for weapons and will be angry about being lied to (which will probably raise the fine quite a bit) but you don't give him specifics about which weapons you have unless specifics are asked for.

Of course with GloWands running a paltry 60 and having wireless inter connectivity I'd imagine that the previous mentioned "Non Force Jedi Mind Trick" is still going to be better.

"These are not the runners you are looking for"
"These ar-"
*GloWand around neck begins to... glow and beep insistently*
>>>CENTRAL BREAK IN: OFFICER DEMETREK YOU ARE CURRENTLY UNDER THE INFLUENCE OF UNAUTHORIZED MAGIC. BACK UP IN ENROUTE. ATTEMPT TO RESIST ANY MAGICAL INFLUENCE>>>
*Officer Demetrek smiles lightly and reaches for his Thunderbolt*

First I think the initial idea is a good one. And it could come up.

Remember first and foremost LS is a corp. Their job is to

1. Make money
2. Keep the public happy enough so they get their contract renewed.

Actually enforcing the law would be probalby be priority number ten or something. I just comes up when following priority 2.

This means they will be prone to stopping people based on just not liking how they look, especially if you look out of place and are getting into AAA zones.

But an officer isn't likely to get a commendation for starting a firefight downtown. If you're willing to play ball, aren't really wanted for something LS cares about(see noteriety section), and don't seem to be about to cause trouble they're probably fairly willign to let it slide.


Secondly simply saying they can't search you is likely to go over poorly. At the least they my fire up the old chemsniffer. But at the least assume you are being followed.

Again their response would depend on where you're going. If you give that answer driving between low rated areas they might just let it slide as not worth the bother. If you're trying to drive into a high rated zone they may resort to something else. At the least they can spend the nuyen to run your ID through a better checker. Beyond they the system could have a "glitch" that day, and whoop according to them your licence is expired. Looks like you'll have to go down to the station.

So, uhh, I guess all you guys that are big fans of bribery and threatening officers have decided law enforcement doesn't have dash-cams in every car?

That's why you do it sneaky style. As opposed to pulling a gun and pointing it at them.

And actually probably the best and first move, if you think your ID will hold up against a basic check, is just to be really friendly and polite, indicate that you must have made a wrong turn and will be heading away from the AAA area and then just pay the fine when you get it.

All this other stuff would be for if you're worried about getting caught, or functionally are good as caught, or if the officer seems intent on a search etc.

I'm just saying, even if the cop likes a thousand nuyen enough to let the death threat slide, is: really something you want to be saying out loud, knowing there are cameras and microphones pointed at you (and you/your SIN/your fake SIN with the car on it has already been pulled up, as SOP for being pulled over in the first place)?

Given the level of technology available, I certainly don't see dash-cams going away, or getting worse, in the next sixty-plus years.

And, aside from that, cops are trained (and I imagine this trend would strengthen, if anything) to always, always, be in control of the situation. What makes you think your average traffic cop is even going to let you get that many words out, especially if he's actually got a legit reason to be pulling you over in the first place? You don't just say "I'm going to drive away now" to a cop, nevermind wrapping it all up with that implied threat to his well being.

At most, I'd try this sort of thing by having some cash in one of my hands (which would be on the wheel as he approached, just like cops like), where it can't be seen by a dash-cam, and I'd just say the usual "What seems to be the problem, sir?" as he walked up. He'd see the money and know what's-what, without me launching into a big old recorded speech/greeting/order/death threat.

That might hold true in RL but in Shadowrun you effectively have very few rights unless you're rich or influential. None if you're SINless. The core of the setting is dystobianism, the notion of standing on you "rights" is bizarre.

Oh, and can I assume you're joking about the string theory? Normally I would, but there are some weird people on the internet.

Believe me, it doesn't even hold true in real life. Personal experience.

Not to mention, even if they don't physically search your vehicle or bag ( actually honoring the law *snorts*), they WILL detain you beside the road and call for a K9 unit to sniff your vehicle and possessions. In SR, they would break out the chem-sniffer. Once hte dog barks (or the sniffer wails) they are going right in with probable cause.

Vlad

Oh I believe you, I heard other Americans tell about dog units being called, just because permission was denied, or how police officers sometimes took denial of search as constituting probable cause. I didn't mention it partially because I don't know how common it is, and partially because however common or uncommon it is in RL, it certainly will be common in SR, because Shadowrun basically sucks (as a world, not as a setting).

Remember, Lone Star are NOT, say again, NOT Police Officers. They are Peace Officers. There is a difference.

Their job is to keep the Peace, not uphold Law and Order. That means they won't bother asking permission to search your car unless you flash you "I'm an important person and you're hoop is mine!" SIN at them. They just will. Because it's in the interests of keeping the Peace. To hell with "Citizen's Rights".

And $Diety help you if you're guilty of the crime of "Driving While Meta". "Excuse me, um, Sir (i think)... Is this your car?" is the best you can hope for.

Where are you getting that? They are contracted police officers.

IIRC, it was in 2XS.

I disagree entirely with the idea that people no longer deal in cash. It just doesn't make sense from a setting point of view. As has been pointed out, all transfers would be traceable, making them very bad for under the table deals.

Look at this way. The book tells us that in normal life people pay for pretty much everything by wireless transfer. Well, yeah. They're not criminals, and they want convenience over untracability. They also tend to deal with big corporate chain stores and the like. When was the last time anyone here used cash rather than just pulling out a credit or debit card? Now imagine if stores didn't have a minimum limit on card spends, and in your regular life you almost never encountered a store that didn't take card. Now imagine you just had to wave your card in the direction of the machine. That's 2070.

And yet, people still pay bribes in cash, because it makes sense. So Shadowrunners, more than any ordinary prole, will carry a lot of cash with them, because they deal with criminals, and criminals deal in cash.

I do believe while on UCAS turf they have to follow UCAS law. (It gets a little fuzzier once you're at their station which technically has externality).

A LS officer can just walk up to your car, pronounce you guilty, and pop a cap in your head Judge Dredd style.

But they don't particularily respect the law either, they respect keeping the peace.

I consider their policy one more of making people play by their rules. Shoot up some corp that didn't pay for on site LS security? They aren't too worried. The populace romaticise shadowrunners, bitches when they get rammed during a car chase, and the corps like that runners exist so they aren't bitching either.

But start boosting cars in a higher zone? Now that's going to end up in crime statistics and will start making the Star look bad. So on and so forth.



Oh and a more relevant thing. Sometimes it isn't clear how a situation should go down. But that's what the ettiquit skill is for. The player says what they'd like to do, and rolls it up as per the skill description. If in your world a threat works, they know they can use that, if it doesn't you can suggest what might.

A knowledge skill might also be usable this way.

Someone correct if they can prove I'm wrong here, but as I understand it the legal definition of a search includes any form of unauthorised prying. That means chem sniffers. The moment you have refused to be searched, it doesn't matter if they fire up the chem-sniffer and find 40 kilos of finest columbian powder, 10kg of C12, and a stack of loaded AK's in your trunk, because they will have just invalidated all of that evidence.

The bigger problem here is if they decide to push the issue anyway, because once they find out that you're SINless, your rights go out the window, and so does that the fact that they brought you in on bad procedure. That's a hefty risk to take however, when they could lose their job over a screw up.

Well, according to RL law, a sniff by a dog was ruled as not constituting a search by the U.S. Supreme Court. Apply as you see fit in-game.

Come to think of it, anybody see a market for Lone Star agents with cybernoses?

In the US, use of drug dogs is not "unauthorised prying." If a dog sniffs around your car and signals to it's handler that there is somethign of interest within, the police have "probable cause" to search, no matter how much you cry foul. It will hold up in court. A chemsniffer would be jsut as valid. But, in reality, that's only if hte cops really want to abide by the rules. Typically it goes down like this:

"Mr Vladski, you have a headlight out." This is called reasonable suspicion. They could have jsut as easily claimed you crossed the center line, were driving suspiciously slow, too fast, or looked at them the wrong way. It gives them the right to pull you over.
"I'm sorry officer, I didn't realize that. I'll be sure to take care of it first thing in the morning."
"Mr. Vladski, your eyes appear a bit red. Are you under the influence of anything?" This is more reasonable suspicion that facilitates wanting to search your vehicle. Doesn't matter if it's 2am and they are red because you wear contacts and have been up for 20 hours.
"No, officer."
"Would you please step out of the vehicle."
"Yes, sir." Complies
Officer pokes head into vehicle and shines light around while his partner stands to the rear and covers your every move. "Do you have any illegal drugs or weapons in the vehicle?"
"No, officer."
"Would you care if I search the vehicle?" He is already rummaging around, opening hatches and cubbies and feeling under the seats.
"No, I would prefer you didn't."
"You don't want me to search? Are you afraid I will find something?" Pulls sealed opaque leather bag from under passenger seat.
"No sir. I do not want you searching my vehicle."
"How about this bag, Mr. Vladski?" As he unzips it.
"No, there will be no search."
"Hmmm, what is in this clear plastic baggie, Mr. Vladski? It appears to be marijuana"
"I have no idea, officer."
"Mr. Vladski, you are under arrest for possession of marijuana. Officer Roberts, please do a field test on this green leafy matter while I read him his rights."

Their case will stand up in court. The two officers will claim that you complied with the search. That is what their "independent" reports will both say. The judge will take their word for it no matter how much you protest or deny. You are not given a jury trial because it's not a felony charge. It's soley a judge's discretion at that point.

Vlad

Vlad's pretty much summed it up in a nutshell.

It's that way in Canada, as well. And other places too, I bet.

Isn't the example essentially invalidated by dashboard cameras and mics, though? I would like to think it would be a little more difficult to have those "disappeared".

Not really. Very easy to have those items "Be down for maintence" at the time of the bust.

Just the mic. The video feed isn't good enough to lipread, so you can't tell the guy is saying "No" or "Yes".

Head shake, maybe, but the cops could argue that the guy was just shaking because he was on drugs.

So what would happen if you told the officers that they may not search your car, and after they do so anyway, there's actually absolutely nothing incriminating inside? Would they just go away then, or would they, like, Rodney King you?

Second question: what if they search your car, but you tell them they're not allowed to do so, and there's absolutely nothing incriminating inside, so you decide to sue them afterwards? Wouldn't the fact you told them not to search be recorded on their patrol car camera?

Well, if the cop is legit, he'd stop the search there most likely, or come up with some legit reason. There's enough of them that are easy enough to come up with. Search the car, apologise, and that's it. Try to sue him, and the Blue Wall will come up...

If the cop is not legit (And, frankly, if he's searching your car despite your very legal request not to, the chances are slim), then he'll just have a nice little something up his sleve to drop under your passenger seat. There you go, instant bust. Oh? No fingerprints on it? Must have worn gloves when putting it in, because the cop certianly is.

That's precisely right. And the detention, search and arrest are not going to be invalidated because of faulty euipment. The cops do not HAVE to be running htose items. They are there, in fact, for THEIR protection, not the suspects.

Vlad

Q1: No, they would most likely not Rodney King you. *L* If they didn't find anything, they would jsut thank you for your cooperation and let you move along. If they have it out for you for some reason, then they might find something anyway. Probably try to hand it to you to get fingerprints on it, and if you refused to handle it, it still wouldn't matter. Absence of prints does not mean "didn't possess." Under most state laws, anything found in a car is considered to immediately be the possession of the driver/owner unless it is otherwise claimed by someone else or obviously on another's person.


Q2: Suing the police is a VERY BAD IDEA. Especially in a smaller city. Odds are, you won't win. IF you do win, see above. Another couple cops WILL find somethign on your person in a short period of time.

Vlad

Well, smaller cities and/or towns are in general pretty scary. Because they have a sense of community and outsiders-versus-insiders, and possibly local cultural norms/expectations, you really have to watch out. I suppose in a rural enough place the locals could just decide to kill you and hide your body and that would be the end of the story, period. I feel safest in big cities, because at least should the cops, say, Rodney King you, there's at least the possibility of some fallout.

The set of peace officers is a superset of police officers. It is the set of all persons who are commissioned by the government to perform tasks related to the administration or enforcement of the law. Included in the set of peace officers are a number of subsets, including police officers, justices of the peace, sheriffs, deputies, parole officers, and court clerks. In Canada it also includes aircraft pilots.


Different sorts of peace officers have different powers. A court clerk can't arrest you and doesn't usually carry a gun but he can file official court paperwork.




It is quite simple. A person does not have a right to privacy in regards to the air outside of their possessions. If the smell is plainly in plain sniff in a publicly accessible area then the search is not unlawful. However, having the dog get into the car would be unless there was probable cause.


At any rate, the safest option is to not pull over at but but instead to press the button that fires anti-vehicle rockets from your rear turret.

So, a Corporation hired to do "Police Work" would, indeed, be Peace Officers. Thus don't have the oversight that Police Officers would.

Like Mercenaries hired for Military actions. They'd have guidelines, but that's about it.

It includes Aircraft Pilots? Really? Weird.

One note in SR4 the presence of cameras/imaging devices etc is far more wide spread than today.

From Arsenal each vehicle is equipped with 2 cameras stock. Also technically each vehicle is "wired" into Grid Guide. etc.

So each vehicle has on board diagnostics, and one part of said diagnostic system could detect the operation status of all lights.

So if a LEO/LS is going to pull your vehicle out of Grind Guide, if the LEO/LS states he is pulling the vehicle over due to tail light out or crossing the center line, illegal lane change etc, the Grid Guide can verify such details etc. The on board diagnostics will detect/report any non operational basic safety items ie lights to Grid Guide.

Also if the pulled over vehicle is equipped with a microphone sensor, there will be a record of any conversations between the LEO/LS. Also a record of camera footage. Also if the vehicle is equipped with interior cameras, a visual record of any LEO/LS actions in the vehicle.

Also if the character or characters have cybereyes/cyberears, recordings from those is available. In the wireless world can be off loaded in the blink of an eye to a off location for later use.

So what does this mean, a causal pull over for reasons to screw with a character will be minimized due the vast trail of visual and possible audio records to be dealt with.

Now an intentional pull over to set up the character, will/should have the needed Hacker type somewhere, to deal with the data/visual/audio evidence trail.

WMS

No, a corporation hired to do police work would employ police officers. Being agents of the state they would be required to follow the same rules of conduct that any other police officer follows.

Must be misremembering.

Sorry folks.

That clearly wasn't true of Lone Star. It's kind of hard to put them through the state required 30 weeks of training by certified trainers before getting police powers in the way they were used as strikebreakers.

Well, it appears that the role they take depends on the contract they make with the City.

In Seattle, they might BE Police Officers, whereas in other places, Peace Officers. And, in yet others, just Security Guards.

And, in some cities, all they do is run parkades.

Personally I haven't had much dealing with the police. Except that night where I got stopped 3-4 times in a couple of hours because I was carrying around a ladder in the middle of the night, which granted does look suspicious. However I'm pretty sure that the Danish police does not conduct routine searches of people's vehicles, permission or no permission.