Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: What's the cut?
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
DocTaotsu
We've had some pretty involved discussions on money laundering and payment but how much does such a service cost? I assume that the laundryman takes a percentage of the amount being washed plus a flat fee. What have you all been using? Do you use some sort of sliding scale? 10% for amounts under 10k, 8 for under 100k, and so on?
kzt
My understanding is that in RL it ranges up to 50% for some cybercriminals. Though a guy who used to be a criminal lawyer said that this was outrageous and 25% was considered high back in the day. But that involved some sort of FtF transaction, not some crook in Bulgaria making a deal with some store owner in South Africa over the internet.

In SR, why would you need to do that? Just use certified credsticks. Not I can actually believe that anyone would actually design any such animal due to the fact that the primary customer are criminals, and criminals are bad bank customers, but there are lots more ideas that are more impractical or totally silly in SR.
DocTaotsu
Well smart runners use certified cred or some other form of finance that they can physically hold on to.

Newbie runners evidently dump vast amounts of money into the accounts they have linked to their fake SIN.

The later has happened and I'm trying to figure out what to charge them for the privelage of getting their money back.

So 10-20% sounds like a good place to start.
vladski
QUOTE (kzt @ Apr 26 2008, 05:00 AM) *
My understanding is that in RL it ranges up to 50% for some cybercriminals. Though a guy who used to be a criminal lawyer said that this was outrageous and 25% was considered high back in the day. But that involved some sort of FtF transaction, not some crook in Bulgaria making a deal with some store owner in South Africa over the internet.

In SR, why would you need to do that? Just use certified credsticks. Not I can actually believe that anyone would actually design any such animal due to the fact that the primary customer are criminals, and criminals are bad bank customers, but there are lots more ideas that are more impractical or totally silly in SR.


We already have certified credsticks today: refillable credit cards/gift cards. Available at any major department store and convenience store. Good old US dollars on a card. Why do we have such? Because, the corps and the banks know that people will spend them on goods and services instead of little Timmy hoarding that $5 bill Gramma tucked in his birthday card. It's in the interest of hte Corps to create such things becasue they frankly don't care where the money they get comes from.

Vlad
vladski
Fences will take a high percentage of the value of hte goods, depending on the goods and how hot they are and how easy they are to move. Figure anywhere from 25-50% (if not more for really unique stuff.)

Actually laundering money? I would suspect far less. It would be simple enough for a fence to run money through an actual "front" business that provides "services" with receipts and such. Little risk of being caught (or messed with) if the business is actually operating out of hte country. I would figure that if you want to convert some "registered" cred from a SIN account to to certified credsticks without hte messy "trail," you would only have to pay 10-15 percent. Making a 100 nuyen for every 1000 you move at no effort and virtually no risk is quite the business.

I would imagine this would be a "grey" market, something you could find in the phone/LTG directory even. Sorta like escort services. I could see the Mob, the Yaks, and Triads being heavily involved in this stuff. You want to get a certified credstick worth 2,000K with no trail back to you? Fine, then head over to Anna Maria's Bakery and Catering. There she will hand you a credstick with 2,000 nuyen on it along with the receipt for the 2,200 you spent on catering that little shindig you never had. She keeps 100 nuyen and hands 100 over to her weekly bagman, Tony, when he visits.

Vlad
CanRay
"Da Foist Bank A Tony", a Black Bank that I'm going to have in my campaign, charges a straight 15% charge on every deposit. After that, you're pretty much covered in clean cash you can pull from any White Label ATMs that are available at any shopping centre and Stuffer Shack, and put on any CredStick. Then it's a deposit away to your legit bank account.
kzt
QUOTE (vladski @ Apr 26 2008, 04:47 AM) *
We already have certified credsticks today: refillable credit cards/gift cards. Available at any major department store and convenience store. Good old US dollars on a card. Why do we have such?

Try adding $25,000 in cash to that card...
Fix-it
QUOTE (DocTaotsu @ Apr 26 2008, 02:05 AM) *
We've had some pretty involved discussions on money laundering and payment but how much does such a service cost? I assume that the laundryman takes a percentage of the amount being washed plus a flat fee. What have you all been using? Do you use some sort of sliding scale? 10% for amounts under 10k, 8 for under 100k, and so on?


sliding percentage based on the amount being laundered, the time period in which it is needed (eg, instant vs a few days/hours), and the thoroughness of the job.

ArkonC
QUOTE (DocTaotsu @ Apr 26 2008, 10:05 AM) *
We've had some pretty involved discussions on money laundering and payment but how much does such a service cost? I assume that the laundryman takes a percentage of the amount being washed plus a flat fee. What have you all been using? Do you use some sort of sliding scale? 10% for amounts under 10k, 8 for under 100k, and so on?

Usually, the launderer ask for a flat fee and a percentage, like 500 nuyen.gif + 20%, this is to stop people from laundering small amounts of money...
I'm no longer up to date as to how much it would cost now, but several years ago, I could get it done for 500 Euros and 20%, I expect this wasn't very cheap since I wasn't really into the whole laundering scene...
Also, the reason there is no sliding scale for laundering is because laundering costs money, so 10% of the fee would be for the actual processing of your money...
kzt
QUOTE (vladski @ Apr 26 2008, 04:57 AM) *
Fences will take a high percentage of the value of hte goods, depending on the goods and how hot they are and how easy they are to move. Figure anywhere from 25-50% (if not more for really unique stuff.)

Fences take a LOT more. You'll be lucky to get 15% of list. There is hugely more risk and overhead dealing with physical inventory and dealing face to face with criminals. And the fence is selling the material to someone a significant discount off list price - like 50%, so he can't buy from you at 50% of list and make money. And he has no interests in making you rich or being fair, he wants to make himself rich, and giving streetscum an even break isn't how he does that.

Having a good fence contact should be really worth a lot, as it might get you 30% or more of list if it's something that he can move. It provides him a reason to be more fair in what he pays. And pro fences also will contract reliable people to obtain stuff for them, which pays better as he already has a customer. Even still, he's only going to interested in a limited subset of things.

If you are selling to the actual end user you could get maybe 50% of list, but that's take a lot of time to do, and cruising around parking lots and talking to lots of strangers with a trunk full of hot merchandise has it's own drawbacks, at least until you develop regular customers.

This also is true for trying to make money selling stolen cars. Guys who steal four $20,000 cars a week are not staying in the Ritz-Carlton. They might be able to afford the Holiday Inn instead of the Motel 6, but being the guy at the bottom of the food chain isn't a ticket to great wealth.
Fortune
QUOTE (kzt @ Apr 27 2008, 03:44 AM) *
Try adding $25,000 in cash to that card...


Don't deposit it all on one card. Spread it out among a dozen or two.
sunnyside
I would only suggest money laundering if players are trying to be extra legitimate or if they're running a company or something.

We have something like certified credsticks now. It's called "cash" you may have heard of it.

The reason people who have been paid in cash launder it is because otherwise the fed might notice you only accounted for $20,000 in income last year but you bought a 300,000 house and so on.


For an indavidual player there is a third option beyond laundered money, and that is using an offshore back acount. These banks are perfectly legal in the messedu p sixth world and are competitive and so should charge minimal fees. Such as fees per transaction month or somesuch. These accounts may not be tied to a SIN and may instead act like a "lock box" for whoever has the "key"
vladski
QUOTE (kzt @ Apr 26 2008, 12:44 PM) *
Try adding $25,000 in cash to that card...


Try picking up 25 of those cards with a $1,000 on each.

Vlad
vladski
QUOTE (kzt @ Apr 26 2008, 01:07 PM) *
Fences take a LOT more. You'll be lucky to get 15% of list. There is hugely more risk and overhead dealing with physical inventory and dealing face to face with criminals. And the fence is selling the material to someone a significant discount off list price - like 50%, so he can't buy from you at 50% of list and make money. And he has no interests in making you rich or being fair, he wants to make himself rich, and giving streetscum an even break isn't how he does that.

Having a good fence contact should be really worth a lot, as it might get you 30% or more of list if it's something that he can move. It provides him a reason to be more fair in what he pays. And pro fences also will contract reliable people to obtain stuff for them, which pays better as he already has a customer. Even still, he's only going to interested in a limited subset of things.

If you are selling to the actual end user you could get maybe 50% of list, but that's take a lot of time to do, and cruising around parking lots and talking to lots of strangers with a trunk full of hot merchandise has it's own drawbacks, at least until you develop regular customers.

This also is true for trying to make money selling stolen cars. Guys who steal four $20,000 cars a week are not staying in the Ritz-Carlton. They might be able to afford the Holiday Inn instead of the Motel 6, but being the guy at the bottom of the food chain isn't a ticket to great wealth.


I don't disagree with you, I merely state it varies depending on what and how much of "what" you are trying to get rid of. Each case will be unique. If it's something not likely to be traced, say entertainment equipment, you will get more. If it's a car or a gun, something that is actively perused legally, much, much less.

Vlad
kzt
QUOTE (sunnyside @ Apr 26 2008, 12:42 PM) *
The reason people who have been paid in cash launder it is because otherwise the fed might notice you only accounted for $20,000 in income last year but you bought a 300,000 house and so on.

And all cash transaction of >$9,999 need to be reported, as do transactions that suggest structuring to avoid the $10,000 reporting threshold. That's what caught the idiot ex-governor of NYS.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012