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spica2501
While playing SR last night I went to a Red Star clinic to try to buy a platlet factory. I had choosen red star because my runner team has done a lot of work for evo, so I figured if I was recognized no one would try to get revenge on me, and platlet factories have a high availability rating so I would have to go to an upscale establishment. Because I'm a runner and would rather not reveal my identiy, I used my rating 6 fake sin to try to purchase the platlet factory. I didn't think this would be a problem because platlet factories are completely legal and I had the best fake sin money could buy. When I made the check to see if my fake sin held up I rolled a single success, and the scanner rolled 2. I forgot that they only take you back for questioning on a tie, and just arrest you if the scanner wins, so I waited around to be questioned (because I had taken the time to memorize my fake sins details). Since I'd never been questioned on my fake sins details I went allong with the star when they came for me to bring me back to the station, they also didn;t read me my rights or cuff me when they came for me so I didn't even know I was under arrest untill they had me back at the station and threw me in a jail cell rather than bringing me to an interigation room. I was thankfully able to get out because our face is a former lawer and was able to find a technecality in the papers that they filed when they bought me in, but this situation confirmed my suspicion that even good fake SINs are so flimsy that they tend to get you in more trouble then they save you from, especially if you're a legitimate SINner (like my character).

Fake sins are of no use if you actually get caught doing something illegal, you're already in trouble and they just get you in more if the scanner beats them. They're no good for buying stuff, all of the illegal and restricted stuff that runners use should be bought off the records from a fixer and dumped if your about to get caught by the star, and legel stuff is better bought with a real sin because a fake one can just get you arrested.

the only time they have any practical use is when someone somehow got ahold of your sin's info and is trying to use it to track you down, but if you're a good runner you can avoid getting caught in that kind of situation. Even using a fake id while on the run is risky because it implies you're using it at legitimate establishments where it can be detected and your cover blown, which makes using underworld connections (such as the ubiquitous fixer) much more appealing.

Has anyone else noticed the weakness of fake SINs or have any flaming they wish to direct at me for my above rant?
spica2501
PS. I know I made some bone headed decisions and the GM screwed up a bit (when he did't have the star cuff me or read me my rights right away, therefore giving me the heads up that I should make a break for it), so you don't need to comment on those apects of my original post.
ElFenrir
Well, Fake SINs are indeed important, IMO, if you don't have your own(or worse, a criminal SIN.) Even if you HAVE a SIN, you want fake ones. They aren't infallable, though. Look at real life fake IDs. Sure they can get you into bars when you're younger than the drinking age-but some of them are better trained to tell them and will catch you. Naturally, the more secure things you try to do with a fake one, the more risk.

It's my opinion you want at least 2 solid rated ones and a couple of low-ranked throwaway ones-those lesser ones shouldn't have a problem at the Stuffer Shack. But don't try to get, say, a gun with a Rating 2 SIN. But something legal, as in fully legal, don't require a permit, anyone, their grandmother or their pet cat can have one with no problems-IMO, shouldn't run you too much trouble. I guess part of it is the establishment you go to. A higher ranked place like you said-yeah, they might have a higher computer checking your payment.

Then again, if it's a completely legal thing picked up somewhere, there is always certified cred. Get to love the Certified Cred. It's basically like paper money. If I want to go to a 2070 drugstore and buy stuff that's totally legal but can be made into explosives, i would pay in certified cred. If a place doesn't accept certified cred, then it's probably a bit more high-end and then yeah, i'd want a drek-hot fake ID to use.
Shiloh
QUOTE (ElFenrir @ Apr 28 2008, 05:16 PM) *
Well, Fake SINs are indeed important, IMO, if you don't have your own(or worse, a criminal SIN.) Even if you HAVE a SIN, you want fake ones. They aren't infallable, though. Look at real life fake IDs. Sure they can get you into bars when you're younger than the drinking age-but some of them are better trained to tell them and will catch you. Naturally, the more secure things you try to do with a fake one, the more risk.


Not having a SIN will get you into far more trouble than having a cruddy fake one. There's been some discussion as to whether the mechanics of a SIN check should be adjusted, but "in principle" fake SINs should be worth having, but don't get precious about them... They're as disposable as paper undies, but more expensive. Just a cost of business, omae.
spica2501
Next time I'll go get a price quote first and then come back with certified cred. That should help minimize having to flash my ID.

Unfortunatly I did use a "drek-hot" fake sin and still got caught, which is what pisses me off. I buy an expensive fake ID and then the first time I use it I get caught and the sin becomes useless.
spica2501
QUOTE (Shiloh @ Apr 28 2008, 12:22 PM) *
Not having a SIN will get you into far more trouble than having a cruddy fake one. There's been some discussion as to whether the mechanics of a SIN check should be adjusted, but "in principle" fake SINs should be worth having, but don't get precious about them... They're as disposable as paper undies, but more expensive. Just a cost of business, omae.


I recognize that not having a sin can be a real problem (you can't do anything legally), that's why I always take the sinner quality. The troll street sammy in our group is played by a first time player and he forgot to get a fake sin at character creation and did not take the sinner quality. He learned his lesson quickly.
Aaron
It occurs to me that fake SINs are for getting through checkpoints and not being hassled when you're in Downtown Seattle or other Active-mode-only areas. It seems to me that buying illegal stuff is what contacts are for.
spica2501
QUOTE (Aaron @ Apr 28 2008, 12:31 PM) *
It occurs to me that fake SINs are for getting through checkpoints and not being hassled when you're in Downtown Seattle or other Active-mode-only areas. It seems to me that buying illegal stuff is what contacts are for.


True, very true, but note that I was trying to buy something legal without it getting added into my medical records. I suppose I should just have just bribed the staff not to put it in my records.

Knowing my jerk GM the Patrol Drones will have rating 4 scanner rather than the rating 1 scanners they should have (He put a vault inside of a vault and a gas grenade trap in a functional desk in some facility we broke into. We PCs are making a list of the rediculous stuff he's done to us so we can do it to him next time he's a player.).
ElFenrir
Speaking of legality of items, i always figured illegal stuff is...illegal, even with a valid SIN and a license, you can't go walk in and buy a Panther Assault Cannon. A military man will even get hassled carrying one of them. Mil-spec weapons are typically not for use outside of military practices. If they are actually on a military mission in a city for some reason? Sure, then they can have it, but i would say if they are caught on 'downtime' with mil-spec weapons at their house some trouble would be on the horizon. Permit to carry a concealed firearm? Sure, anything with an 'R' is able to have a license attached, in our games anyway.

Now, all of this being said, there are some legal codes that confuse me-if a military guy serves his, whatever years in the Military and has some Bone Lacing(F code, it's forbidden)...does he get it sucked out of him when he leaves after his term of service is up? (or, just, you know, has it replaced with Bone Density Augmentation, which is 100% legal and does about the same damn thing.) Reflexes and the like are under the Restricted category. (Ive always imagined some of the F code stuff being mil-spec(not all of it), so again, usable under their circumstances, but not out of it.) Unless they no longer issue the forbidden bone-lacing but the fully legal bone-density treatment instead. (I always pictured bone lacing as being regular mil-spec stuff, myself. Why the horribly illegal stance on it these days, I don't know.)
kzt
The rules for detecting fake SINs are crazy bad. You can't use even a really high rated one with any degree of confidence even against low rated checks. Your mean time to failure of a rating 6 fake against a rating 1 scanner is less than 50 uses IIRC.

If the game didn't stress how runners should all use fake SINs all the time this wouldn't be so irritating, but it does, and the rules don't work if you use them as written.
sunnyside
RAW is a little weak I'll grant. However in most cases I wouldn't even consider the ID to be "scanned"

You have to have it in a lot of zones, but they're just checking if you're transmitting, not running your SIN through the databases.

What I'm saying is that you shouldn't just be rolling the fake ID against scanners left right and center. Typically only when someone would "challenge" your ID. This could be because you're buying something and they're checking if you're authorized for that account or crossing a border.

And yes certified cred and using your fixer can help avoid a lot of this.

However another important factor is what happens if a test comes back false? True a place might just call up the Star.

But they don't have to, particularily if you're within the externality of a corp, the Star doesn't even have jurisdiction there. Also I don't think it even says, via RAW, that ANY failed test blows the ID. Meaning if the corp keeps it to themselves only they know your ID is bogus.

Remember corps are out to make money. And your buying an expensive piece of legal cyber is money straight into the pockets of at least the doc and is probably also going to bonuses for the others in the clinic. There is a very real chance they will simply let it slide, or, more likely, you will be informed that there must be some computer problems with the issuer of your SIN and give you an "paperwork and administration" fee. Pay this.

However I would caution you about just using a regular SIN. If your cover ever gets blown suddenly people know your biometric data, they know where your family is, all sorts of stuff.


kzt
At the very least you need it to buy anything. How often do you use a credit card, debit card or cash to buy something daily? Include every time you get something out a vending machine.

And it doesn't make any sense for the game to require you to advertise a SIN if it isn't checked. Why bother buying a fake, just steal one from a cop.
ElFenrir
I'm with you on this, sunnyside. I really don't think the Shack is going to scan you every time you buy TopSoy Ramen, or a TummyObliterator at Mchugh's. Hell, i'd say anything in the book, that's considered ''Legal'', you can buy with certified cred. And hell, even some stuff with an ''R'', you can buy with just certified cred...sometimes...if you, ya know, maybe add a little more of said certified cred into the mix.

F stuff you can't get from a store anyway, so you'd be going through your fixer for that.

But yeah, there will be times where you have to scan. Even things like border patrol though...im sure a little extra certified cred here and there may just let them look the other way. Shadowrunners aren't the only shady people. The 'Law Enforcement' has plenty of folks who wouldn't mind lining their pockets with extra cred if it means them looking the other way.

But yeah, having a small array of fake IDs(i agree, using your normal SIN can cause issues), some low level, a couple mids, and maybe one good one to use for when the times come up=very good idea. And yeah, be prepared to switch em up. Stuff might go wrong, but IMO it shouldn't screw the player constantly.
sunnyside
QUOTE (kzt @ Apr 28 2008, 02:33 PM) *
At the very least you need it to buy anything. How often do you use a credit card, debit card or cash to buy something daily? Include every time you get something out a vending machine.

And it doesn't make any sense for the game to require you to advertise a SIN if it isn't checked. Why bother buying a fake, just steal one from a cop.



Actually I think you should be able to play the identity theft game to some degree. However since your face doesn't match up you can get in trouble really fast. Also there is the chance the system will figure out that there are two of the same SIN walking around, at which point there will likely be trouble.

And again runners will just tend to use certified cred more often.

Does this mean that they looks suspicious in a find establishment? Yup. I kinda like that, it reminds the players that their characters aren't fully part of the system. And all the fine things of the world are not easily open to them.


Still though in practice I do wish that the exact rolls were a little different. Like you roll the rating squared or something.

kzt
QUOTE (sunnyside @ Apr 28 2008, 12:51 PM) *
Actually I think you should be able to play the identity theft game to some degree. However since your face doesn't match up you can get in trouble really fast. Also there is the chance the system will figure out that there are two of the same SIN walking around, at which point there will likely be trouble.

If it's going to check that it's already fully checked the SIN. Remember, there is essentially no cost to do that. The amount of CPU power and bandwidth a streetlight has is more than what your typical modern company has.
Pyritefoolsgold
I have to agree, the way fake SINs work currently would be more fitting for Paranoia then Shadowrun. My suggestion would be that if a sin fails a scanner check the scanner just tries again, and problems only arise if it fails the check multiple times, or your sin rolls a crit. glitch. (probably representing someone having noticed the bogus data and putting a flag on it.) fake Sins should only really be defeated by a concentrated research effort. the current rules might make sense if you were trying to use a fake sin to impersonate someone, but it should be a lot easier for "Joe Nobody, freelance security consultant" to slip through.

The system was designed to be broken because it is often in the interests of those who made the system to slip things through the cracks. I don't see the power players out there really caring if your SIN is fake or not.
Sombranox
QUOTE (kzt @ Apr 28 2008, 01:33 PM) *
The rules for detecting fake SINs are crazy bad. You can't use even a really high rated one with any degree of confidence even against low rated checks. Your mean time to failure of a rating 6 fake against a rating 1 scanner is less than 50 uses IIRC.

If the game didn't stress how runners should all use fake SINs all the time this wouldn't be so irritating, but it does, and the rules don't work if you use them as written.


I used to play with a GM who hated that mean use thing enough that he house ruled that any scanner that was three or more less than the fake SIN rating couldn't detect the fake SIN and didn't even roll the test. So if you had a rating 6, only the actual in depth rating 4+ scans would have a chance of turning up anything. The everyday walk down the street scanners wouldn't have enough database access and processing power to crack the higher rated SINs.

Maybe not the best solution, but it made it feel a _little_ less like big brother was going to crack down on you every time you bought coffee or walked past a streetlight with a scanner on it. If you actually got the cops or corps looking into you though...well then you just prayed for a good roll.
Cain
I think it was Frank Trollman who figured out there's a 1 in 6 chance the verifier will critically botch, causing all kinds of trouble.

Re-running the SIN is the only logical choice. Nowadays, if a cop runs your legal driver's license, and comes back with an unusual return. he'll run it again. Only if it comes back false multiple times would you get into trouble.

Additionally, this is what Edge is for.
Nightwalker450
Our house-rule for Fake SINs is that the Fake SIN rating is the threshold, and the scanner makes an extended test to detect it. Most scanners will only run 1 or 2 scans to try and figure out if its invalid. In times of high alert though we can have scanners run the extended test for a longer time.

Also if an ID does get found out in a single test, it is possible for the scanner to start over and rescan it to see if it holds up.

Also the benefit of an extended scan, it gives the hacker time to get in the system and possibly tweak the id as its scanned to help it hold up better.
SprainOgre
I agree that multiple scans would be used. No one wants to go through the paper work of dealing with a fake ID unless they have to. Hell, when I worked someplace where we needed to card people for "adult material," the general rule was "does it look enough like them that you won't get in trouble if it's not? Yes? Awesome, sell 'em their porn." Sure, every now and again a fake ID would walk in, and that person was mocked for their attempt amongst the clerks (it wasn't even out of ear and eye shot), and told politely that we thought there was something wrong with their ID, would they like us to contact local law enforcement to double check on it. For some odd reason, no one ever took us up on it. I can not imagine the world of the future not working along very similar lines. Why go through all that extra work unless it's really bad. Swipe that card again and watch it work just fine. Life is so much easier now because of it.

However, mechanically, if you want more bang for the buck on your SIN's, try this. Add the successes of your check, both with the SIN and the scanner to the devices rating. So, that rating 6 fake SIN with 1 success has a rating of 7 for the scanner to overcome. A rating 4 scanner is needed to have a chance. Tie goes to the SIN. Now, this does make a low level SIN next to worthless unless there are a lot Rating 1 scanners out there. And I mean a lot! Or, to make the fake SIN more stable, the scanner never gets it's base, only hits. So, only a glitch on a rating 6 will ever get you caught. You might want to make those level 6 SIN's a bit more pricey though.

I also really like the idea of the SIN rating being a threshold that the scanner needs to hit. Levels of security in the area become the modifier for how many checks the local scanners are going to make.
sunnyside
QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 28 2008, 02:38 PM) *
I think it was Frank Trollman who figured out there's a 1 in 6 chance the verifier will critically botch, causing all kinds of trouble.

Re-running the SIN is the only logical choice. Nowadays, if a cop runs your legal driver's license, and comes back with an unusual return. he'll run it again. Only if it comes back false multiple times would you get into trouble.

Additionally, this is what Edge is for.



That's actually an excellent raw point. Sort of stupid that they critically botch that often, but, hey, RAW.

I suppose that isn't so ridiculous. I'm sure all of us have had to try swiping our credit card a second time to get it to work. It would probably be like that. Even rating three systems will botch a little over 8% of the time (of which 2/3rds of those will be critical botches). If you want to rationalize things it'd be that the basic data is there as a given. So the systems are trying to apply heuristics and all sorts of things to the data to try and find suspicious stuff. This would give a number of false positives.

As for the ID theft thing. Detecting multiples doesn't require scanning. It's just the sort of thing that can happen.

For example lets say that you have a laptop and you want it to run on your companies system. If you just grab an IP address from the pool that are supposed to be for the testing department and it isn't in use everything will probably be fine. Now if you take an address that IS in use the network is going to start spazzing and if your IT department has good software all sorts of flags are going to start popping up. So the risk in ID theft is that some thing like that goes wrong. There isn't really any RAW for it. I suppose you could consider a stolen ID as a rating 0 fake ID if you wanted to.
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