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Sir_Psycho
I'll probably chip in a rant later on, but for now, just start voting and begin discussion.

What do you think of the language change between editions?
last_of_the_great_mikeys
I like it. I don't have to translate to "swear" when I read it.
Muspellsheimr
I like the term 'chummer', but for the rest, Fuck, Bitch, Ass, etc is far superior.
Fortune
Fuckin' A!
WeaverMount
I like chummer a lot more than I like frag. Curse words are supposed to have some kick to them, and frag just doesn't. Frag is also just such a generic SF substitution for fuck that, to me, it registers more as "darn" than linguistic progression.

Chummer on the other hand is meant to be an insider greeting for a fictitious group. The fact that chummer leaves me with 1/32 of a second of confusion helps remind me in a genital, and often IC way that I am or should be thinking like someone else.

+Chummer -frag
ElFenrir
I like the change, too. I mean, I still catch myself using some old SR slang now and again(like in my postings), but yeah, i'll take the South Park stance on this and say the more blatant profanity works more in my games. wink.gif I tend to use garden-variety swears when i'm doing my writings for this Shadowrun manga project i have in the(very, very slow and tentative) works.
sunnyside
The non-swear slang all stays. Chummer, Gillette, Keeb, breeders, Trog, "beetle", Null Sweat, Wiz etc.

It comes and goes but sometimes I'll use "geek"

And sometimes I like using Drek (It's a real word anyway in German/Yiddish I believe)

But frag and hoop tend to get replaced.


Kagetenshi
In terms of the words themselves: fuck and frag. The Irish get "feck", why can't Seattle incorporate a new mid-level vulgarity?

In terms of the way the change was done: awful. It wasn't done like the above, it's just all of a sudden everyone wakes up and changes words.

Edit: though it should be noted that SR4 still uses "frag" on at least two occasions (curiously, both OOC)—p61, SR4, in the Strength and Willpower descriptions.

~J
vladski
Personally, I am fond of the old slang. It gave the world flavor, reminded you that you were in someplace else. A place that sorta looks like now if you squinted your eyes a bit, but not really. Slang changes. Some words stick, some fade away. Why should I expect a world that exists about 60 years in the future to sound like right now? The 40's and 50's slang certainly doesn't sound like what you hear in the 00's.

There's another reason I sort of prefer it: kids.

One of the mainstays of RPG's are kids... from about age 12 up. I imagine most here were introduced to roleplaying as a young teen or even younger. RPG's need to sell books in order to survive. Kids buy books. Kids play games. I can imagine many parents, already a bit tenuous about their kid playing an evil RPG to read the text and find "Fuck" used 8 times in the opening flavor fiction of the BBB. (I jsut counted.) If it was a movie, it's already stamped "R." (And probably completely suited for Samual L Jackson nyahnyah.gif ) Mom or dad, being the good parents they should be says "Hey, Johnny, I see you are wanting to play a new game with your friends, what's it about?" Johnny hands over the book he borrowed form his friend and Mom reads the opening fiction. "Ummm... I am not so sure about this, Johnny."

I know a lot of people aren't too concerned about this. But, I know that I don't want my step-kids, one of them 11, about fictional Johnny's age and the other a very bright nearly 7 year old (who will be ready to RP in jsut a few years), using language like that. My step-son is completely ready to be playing SR mentally, in my opinion. But I still don't want him swearing. I recently started him out playing Second Edition D&D. Mom doesn't have a problem with that. She thinks it's great bonding for her son and his new step-dad. She mentioned "How about that other game you play? Shadowrun? Wouldn't he like that?" I said "He probably would, but you know, it's too adult for him. Maybe in a few years."

*just shrugs* I know I am probably in the minority here and God, I am soundling like I am 60 years old and living in the 1950's, but seriously... do we really need all the real language? It's not like I don't swear myself, but I really, really make an effort to tone it down around the kids.

I know, SR is a gritty adult world, full of swearing and violence and torture and drugs and all sorts of less than romantic sex. Maybe I am being unreasonable or selling out somehow. Maybe I am jsut getting old.

Or, maybe I jsut fraggin loved that old drek. It was lingo that really kicked some hoop.

Peace out, chummer

Vlad
Fuchs
I usually describe swearing indirectly ("He swears and curses") while playing, but that's a personal preference - over here, no one I can think of (not even the people up in arms about evil computer games) cares or even understands the US' issues with swearing.

Since we play in german (actually, swiss german), most of the terms get translated anyway, so that's no issue. I do remember "Chummer" being used when we started back in 1992, but these days, SR specific slang is rarely used at our table.
Shiloh
Frag, definitely. But not for sanitary language reasons. I reckon the Sixth World isn't any place for 12 year olds unless their travels have been designed to educate about the evils of greed and prejudice.

Frag, drek, chummer (deriv. choombata), hoop, omae, slot, neh, all that stuff helped build an image of a world subtly different from now. Frag is a different swearword (as I read it) to fuck. It's a purely destructive term and not really a word for sex. I like that the concept of something broken (in a messy way, like by a grenade) has drifted away from the sense of something carnal.
ArkonC
QUOTE (Fuchs @ Apr 29 2008, 12:21 PM) *
I usually describe swearing indirectly ("He swears and curses") while playing, but that's a personal preference - over here, no one I can think of (not even the people up in arms about evil computer games) cares or even understands the US' issues with swearing.

Since we play in german (actually, swiss german), most of the terms get translated anyway, so that's no issue. I do remember "Chummer" being used when we started back in 1992, but these days, SR specific slang is rarely used at our table.

Well, that's because you haven't been properly educated on the subject...
I had a discussion about this with my wife's evangelical texan aunt...
Why everyone is so outraged by swearing and puts so much time an energy in prohibiting it, when there are much worse things going on, things that actually kill...
Her answer: "When you swear you kill an angel."
She wasn't kidding...

I like some of the flavor words of old, and even ones I didn't like (chummer for example) I started using, they grew on me...
But there's a difference between the flavor, and just replacing fuck with frag to make it less offensive...
DocTaotsu
Chummer and omae I love and use constantly (occasionally in real life which can be disconcerting).

But fuck man, you can't beat a fucking good fuck.

Frag and hoop just don't roll off the tongue with the same... flavor and my concern for children goes out the window when I'm playing a game with bunraku parlors and human trafficking for sex, food, and unethical research.

And slitch, I fucking hate slitch, probably because I can't say it with a straight/angry face.
Blade
It never felt natural to use it in French, so except for the occasional use of chummer I've never witnessed much use of SR slang, except for totally new words (trogs, wiz, gilette). Even then, we tend to use translated/adapted words when the English one don't feel natural.
Magus
FELDECARB!!
Sir_Psycho
Honestly, I'm comfortable enough with my maturity to use frag for RP and flavour purposes. The fact that Shadowrun is full of flesh-farms, bunraku slaves, drooling chipheads etc. is exactly why I don't care. The game is pretty adult when you look at it the right way, and I don't think saying "Give me the gun, I'm gonna ice the slitch" makes it any less gritty when I execute some-one.

While I don't think "frag" and "drek" dilute the game's gritty feel, I do feel that "fuck" and "shit" dilute the other shadowrun slang. I like the rest of it, like "breeder" and "slot and run", and the various japanese bastardisations like "Shaikujin/Sarariman", and "So Ka". Not to mention I find it encourages you to come up with new words to use. I remember we had a pretty hilarious thread about derogatory terms for the races, and there was at least ten per race.

I don't care too much about what other people do, I don't load my canon-cannon and go around saying "it's FRAG! don't say fuck!", but to me, it's an integral and colourful tradition of the system that I really like, and continue to use.
paws2sky
You need a "both" or "A mix" option for your poll.

Old SR slang had a lot of character, which is why I liked it (despite the corniness of some of the phrases).

New SR's real-world slang/swearing is much less interesting to me because, well, its too familiar, I guess.

That said, when it came right down to it, the groups I've played in have used a mix of real world and SR slang/swearing, even back in the early, SR1 days. That's something I've carried over into my new game.

Some slang will never go out of style and some makes you seem dated. Using outdated slang is a good way to show a character's age or retrophile tendencies, while using newer slang or making slang up on the spot is a good way to show newness. IMO, of course.

DocTaotsu
I think it's pretty obvious that slang is a YMMV issue. And I heartily agree with paws2sky that dropping the occasional frag is a fun way of showing a characters age, much in the same way I use decker for anyone who's been working the matrix for more than 10 years.
Fortune
QUOTE (DocTaotsu @ Apr 29 2008, 09:38 PM) *
And slitch, I fucking hate slitch, probably because I can't say it with a straight/angry face.


Really? I like slitch. It has such a demeaning feel. biggrin.gif
DocTaotsu
QUOTE (Fortune @ Apr 29 2008, 07:50 AM) *
Really? I like slitch. It has such a demeaning feel. biggrin.gif

Well it's funny because I like slit, just not slitch. Slit generates so many gross and demeaning mental images/connotations that I puke a little when I say it. Slitch always sounded like a combination of slut and bitch. Two words I associate with 14 year old valley girls and not hard bitten death dealing runners commenting on the relative qualities of female gender.
Apathy
I agree with Shiloh and paws2sky. Frag and fuck both have their place and have distinctly different flavors. I was saying "frag" back in the 1990's Army IRL, and it referred to backstabbing/doublecrossing someone (with references to the Vietnam era and anonymously tossing fragmentation grenades in officer's tents in the middle of the night.) Don't know if that was a word choice unique to my unit or if it was more widespread, but it does bring up memories for me.

That said, I get annoyed when it's used to try to "PG-ify" SR. You can fuck someone over by fragging them, but no one ever wants to go out and get fragged.
Eurotroll
Fuck, man. biggrin.gif You can't just get rid of a swear word that harks back to the late middle ages. wink.gif It's here to stay!

But I'll use chummers etc. for the appropriate characters. These specific slang terms never struck me as universal, anyhow -- they're a Seattle thing, transported to other places via Shadownet and globetrotting Runners from the Mother of all Sprawls.
DocTaotsu
QUOTE (Apathy @ Apr 29 2008, 08:09 AM) *
I agree with Shiloh and paws2sky. Frag and fuck both have their place and have distinctly different flavors. I was saying "frag" back in the 1990's Army IRL, and it referred to backstabbing/doublecrossing someone (with references to the Vietnam era and anonymously tossing fragmentation grenades in officer's tents in the middle of the night.) Don't know if that was a word choice unique to my unit or if it was more widespread, but it does bring up memories for me.

That said, I get annoyed when it's used to try to "PG-ify" SR. You can fuck someone over by fragging them, but no one ever wants to go out and get fragged.


Nah I think frag, in the context of the military, is universally recognized as arranging for a "Not So Friendly Fire" incident.

We can thank Vietnam movies for that.
Kagetenshi
I dunno, reading "go out and get fragged" makes it sound to my ears like a synonym for "go out and get smashed", which also sounds unpleasant but which quite a few people do, some even on a regular/frequent basis.

~J
Ikirouta
When around my friends and even my family and most of my work mates I use a pretty foul language. Not that my parents didn't try to raise me better but swearing just comes too naturally to me. Of course I am trying not to swear around my daughter who is still a little too young to hear that kind of language.

Anyway, since we play in Finnish everything gets more or less translated including the swear words.

Only game I have ever tried to use the slang words was Judge Dredd but even that was kind of hard because of how Finnish grammar works as opposed to English.
Wesley Street
I never cared for "frag" or "hoop" but I always liked the phrase "hoi, chummers!". If you're gonna go for potty language then go for potty language. "Frag you!" sounds like, "I'm almost mad enough to swear!" smile.gif
Sir_Psycho
It's clearly an enditement of you as role-players. I'm clearly superiour because I can say "frag" in a viscous tone.
DocTaotsu
Truly, my soul recoils at the very horror that is a frag wielding Sir Psycho smile.gif
kanislatrans
For me nothing say shadowrun like"Frag off, you slottin' Keebs!!!"

I prefer the lingo. It just adds a little more "feel" to the game. but I'm a writer and spend a lot to time trying to find just the right word to convey what I want to say.

for instance, lets say I'm writing some SF and the crewman has just returned to the bridge of the starship to give a report to the Captain. It could go like this:

"Report ,Ensign Smith!" the captain barked .
"Sir! The sublight drives are back online,Sir. I had to Recalibrate the diopter panels, and Clear out a backlog of redundancy circuits, but we're ready for the those Tirelian Asshats!"

or it could go like this:
"Report ,Ensign Smith!" the captain barked .
Sir, the engines are working,sir. I straightened up the panels and changed a few things ,but we're ready for those bad alien guys."

or this:
"Report ,Ensign Smith!" the captain barked .
Sir!, the engines are still not working,Sir. We're running a Windows O/S. I called tech support and they said they are working on a patch to fix the problem . It should be released sometime next month."

Ok so the third one doesn't really count, but it was fun to write spin.gif spin.gif

anyhoo, point being. I just like the slang.
quentra
I prefer fuck as much as I like frag. Example - 'I'm gonna frag that motherfucking trog!' Maybe I spend too much time playing FPS' but I hear Frag and I think kill. Fuck off, frag you. I actually like slitch because i just have an image of some skeezy joygirl.

On that note, I absolutely hate 'hoop.' The fuck is that? Hoop? Seriously? What the frag?
Shiloh
QUOTE (quentra @ Apr 29 2008, 04:10 PM) *
... I absolutely hate 'hoop.' The fuck is that? Hoop? Seriously? What the frag?


Anal sphincter. AKA Ass, arse, butt, behind, jacksie, rear.
quentra
Frag did they get that from?
martindv
QUOTE (Sir_Psycho @ Apr 29 2008, 01:27 AM) *
I'll probably chip in a rant later on, but for now, just start voting and begin discussion.

What do you think of the language change between editions?


I've never used their "curses" because they were childish and stupid.
Roadspike
I'm actually in just about the same place as quentra and several others who have already posted. I abhor the use of "hoop," generally use real-world curse words, but rather enjoy trog, keeb, sarariman, slitch, hoi, gilette, and most of the other in-universe terms that aren't just direct ports of modern curse words. I use frag in the general "kill/mess up" sense, but not in a carnal sense. That's what fuck is for.
Shiloh
QUOTE (martindv @ Apr 29 2008, 04:51 PM) *
I've never used their "curses" because they were childish and stupid.

Like cussing is all that mature and sensible to begin with? smile.gif
Cheops
The crappy April Fool's joke has convinced me that the editors are all a bunch of fracking Cylons so I don't really give a frack if they use the made up swears or try to differentiate themselves as a more "mature" game than D&D by have swears. spin.gif
Speed Wraith
Language evolves and changes, especially slang. I never had a problem with the old lingo, and I don't have a problem mixing it with current RL language either. Still, I voted for frag because it represented the old slang, not so much about the specific word.

On a side not, Frak BSG for frak! I hit my arm yesterday and loudly exlaimed, "Frak!" Many of my coworkers snickered at me for being such a dork nyahnyah.gif
DocTaotsu
I couldn't stop saying gorram for the longest time after I watched Firefly. It happens man.
quentra
QUOTE (DocTaotsu @ Apr 29 2008, 01:15 PM) *
I couldn't stop saying gorram for the longest time after I watched Firefly. It happens man.


I catch myself saying that, but people just think I have a weird accent.
Speed Wraith
I've been known to say ruttin' when there are too many families around and I need to swear covertly. Most folks just don't get it at all.
Wesley Street
Anyone read DC Comics' Lobo books? "Frag" was his exclamation of choice much like "drokk!" in Judge Dredd. Frag doesn't sound particularly future-y to me. It's just a kinder, gentler comics-code approved swear.

English-speaking humans have been saying fuck for centuries. Technical terms may change but that word (along with shit, damn, ass/arse and hell) isn't going to disappear over the course of a few decades.
Cain
New words come in and out of vogue all the time. Dreck, for example, is a word of Yiddish origin, also going back centuries. In fact, it's even older than "fuck", if I read my history correctly. It's had its time too, if I remember right.

At any event, I think it's safe to say that the original SR terms had more flavor than using everyday slang. Scream "Shit!" at the top of your lungs, you're only going to get a few raised eyebrows. The current swear words have lost a lot of punch through overfamiliarity. Modern swear words aren't edgy anymore. It's like Taco Bell hot sauce: only a few people think it's really hot.

LGD
I much prefer the actual swearing. Most of the slang is unspeakably lame and has an unmistakable air of "Sci-fi Swear Word Which Is An Obvious Stand In For Something Else." Modes of expression of derision change but expletives have (as noted by others) remained remarkably consistent for a long time and the chances that "kinder-sounding" and sanitized replacements are going to replace them within 50 years are extremely low, although it's possible that even more foul swear words would come into fashion. "Slitch" actually works as fake slang because it sounds appropriately dirty. Even a return to stricter social standards as regards swearing (something not remotely supported by the SR cannon) would likely simply result in current expletives regaining a lot of their social cache and thus would still be in common use in the social circles Shadowrunners find themselves traveling in.

I think much of the other slang also often sounds unspeakably lame although I could see some of it (chummer for example) happening because of ironic adoption by a subculture and then a gradual shift to a commonly used phrase, and some of the rest because it's a pretty natural nickname or shortening of/corruption of some other word or phrase (trog definitely works as realistic sounding slang, as does ). Personally I dislike the sound of "chummer" and try to avoid it and haven't gotten enough mileage out of most of the rest of the slang to bother with it most of the time. But I (and everybody I game with) am never going to be able to take things like "drek," "frag," and "hoop" seriously and seeing them in game fiction renders it unpleasantly embarrassing to read.
Cain
QUOTE
Modes of expression of derision change but expletives have (as noted by others) remained remarkably consistent for a long time ....

That is not true. "Damn" used to be a hard-core swear word, but now it's used by genteel old ladies. New swear words come in and out of play constantly. Just because the modern words have been around for centuries, doesn't mean they've been used for centuries.
vladski
QUOTE (DocTaotsu @ Apr 29 2008, 12:15 PM) *
I couldn't stop saying gorram for the longest time after I watched Firefly. It happens man.


Dude! I bet you LOVED Ariel! wink.gif


"We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient."
- Jayne (in one of his finest moments)

Vlad
Eyeless Blond
Yeah, that's what SR needs: more borrowed Japanese/Chinese/Russian swear words! I mean, it's all about Eastern megacorps taking over the West; that ought to show up in the culture and even the underground, kinda like it did in Firefly.

Anyone know any good sites for Japanese/Chinese/Russian cursing? smile.gif
Patrick Goodman
QUOTE (Sir_Psycho @ Apr 28 2008, 11:27 PM) *
I'll probably chip in a rant later on, but for now, just start voting and begin discussion.

What do you think of the language change between editions?

It was about damn time....
Muspellsheimr
QUOTE (Shiloh @ Apr 29 2008, 09:03 AM) *
Like cussing is all that mature and sensible to begin with? smile.gif

Yes. Yes it is...

*Walks away*
QUOTE (vladski @ Apr 29 2008, 08:41 PM) *
Dude! I bet you LOVED Ariel! wink.gif


"We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient."
- Jayne (in one of his finest moments)

14 episodes. Only 3 (I think) that I really enjoyed. Ariel was by far the best.

I enjoy Sci-Fi, but hate Western.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Eyeless Blond @ Apr 29 2008, 11:56 PM) *
Anyone know any good sites for Japanese/Chinese/Russian cursing? smile.gif

?????????????

(Important tip: don't say that to people if you aren't sure what it means smile.gif )

~J
Eyeless Blond
Heh, that assumes I can actually read it. nyahnyah.gif
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