I know we got into a really deep conversation on the limits of the guard spirit power in another thread but I'm failing to turn it up. How do you all run this? If a player jumps into a dingy and rows across the Pacific, does the spirit somehow miraculously keep him from dying? What if a giant storm rolls in?

Basically, what are the limits of guard?

Anything which would be the result of a glitch is canceled. Your boat will not be filled with water, your factory will not catch fire.

But you still have to eat, and people can still set you on fire.

-Frank

So a storm could still sink a ship but a bad roll won't mean it runs aground. Rock on, that's so much less retarded than what my player tried to claim.

Storms are environmental hazards of the ocean. Guard would keep the person from dieing from the storm. I'd argue that guard isn't used on inanimate objects such as boats.

Also, as far as starving Frank, an example of the guard power is preventing a character from drowning or dehydration. I think it'd be able to do the same for starvation.

But that'd keep them alive... forever.

Gaurd negates the Spirit power of accident or the effects of glitches. I would not say if the storm rolled in naturally the gaurd power would have no effect.

I would imagine so because otherwise that spell amount to "Protection fromGM"

Which, while the ultimate goal of virtually every player action... does put a dent in my plans.

I'm curious how you're getting this interpretation. 288, SR4, "The Guard power gives the critter the ability to prevent
normal environmental accidents and hazards (both natural and those induced by the Accident power), such as preventing someone from succumbing to heatstroke or saving someone from drowning."

Normal environmental accidents to me at sea would be storms, rolling waves, freak shark attacks, whales upending your boat, etc. Things that would not be affected... pirates, sentient sea monster attacks, running out of gas, etc.


I agree that its a little overpowered that a mage can summon a spirit, and ask it to guard him, which lasts till the spirit goes away. My interpretation to prevent that, is for each use of the guard power which prevented something expends a service. This keeps the uses limited, but still useful when you're expecting a glitch/accident power usages/bad things to happen.

I don't think Shark Attacks would be covered. It protects you from glitches or accidents, the others could result in your boat capsizing with a glitched pilot check. The shark attack only would be covered if you glitched your common sense check and decided to wear your bloody beef swim suit while swimming in such waters.

So, you're saying sharks aren't a natural environmental hazard of the ocean? Ok, then I'd just jump in the ocean, stop swimming, and let guard save me from drowning like it explicitly can!

Ah! That's what I was looking for.

I have my force 6 spirit protect me from the storm.

Great! 10 minutes elapse and nothing bad happens, the spirit informs you that it's done for the evening and returns to the metaplanes.

It saves you from drowning, as in failing your swim check. If you choose not to swim, the spirit is likely to watch you drown. A failed swim check gets a save, a successful suicide attempt doesn't. But if you somehow failed your suicide attempt, guard would kick in and help you finish the job.

"I'm not a fragin Life Raft!"

I stand corrected. Not having my books at the moment. I was misremembering, cool! that make Gaurd a lot more viable to my players.

Yah!

And heatstroke? It explicitly saves from environmental hazards, and then goes on to say oh yeah, glitches too. Not to mention explicitly stating that it will save you from drowning.

If the mage got knocked unconcious, and thrown in the ocean, he would not drown. Explain that one.

Its out of the mages control so he's guarded. Heat stroke, I believe would be some form of failed fatigue test (I don't know exactly). But either way they are all things out of the anyones control. The "Accident power" isn't precisely in the spirits control, its just throwing a wrench into the process and lets the fates decide the outcome.

Guard protects you from accidents, not bullets. When the mage is thrown into the ocean, the goons that did so are leaving his outcome to the fates (Guard applies). If they put a bullet in his skull, they've pretty much decided he's going to die (no Guard applicable). If a mage decides to stop swimming and just drown, then he's made the decision (no Guard applicable).

Thats how I work it. YMMV

Do the Star have mages to summon spirits with Guard for suicide watch prisoners...

So then you can't use Guard in lieu of scuba gear and an air tank?

I guess I'll need more gear in order to inflict the Aquatroll on my group.

I diagree. If a mage decides to stop swimming and just drown, but forgets he has a spirit who he has asked to guard him around, then the spirit saves him foiling his suicide attempt.

If you're GMing you decide if Guard works for this. I believe there's actually an Oxygenate spell though...



I like the spirits to always help the mage (unless he's got the Spirit Bane), so if he decides Suicide is the way to go, the spirit will guard him from screwing it up.

"I glitched my attack on myself"
"Don't worry the spirit prevented the glitch and you successfully finish yourself off."

Sure, but whats the test in this case? Guard is not exclusive to preventing glitches. It also prevents environmental hazards, to me, thats things such as temperature, radiation, random things of chance (pipes exploding, shark deciding to eat you, etc) and lack of things essential to life (such as air when drowning, water when dieing of thirst, how hydrated you are when dehydrating to death, etc).

Perhaps guard should be in some way linked a spirits force? It just seems odd to me that a force 2 spirit can magically keep you from getting radiation poisoning while you stroll through the gardens of Chernobyl.

The shark is the only one that doesn't work for me really... If I'm at the beach I'm protected from Sharks, but if I'm thrown into a pool with the mob bosses pet shark I'm not protected, because Sharks aren't naturally in swimming pools...? It might protect you from glitching your infiltration test so the sharks don't notice you, but its not going to protect you when a shark decides to bite you. There's a difference here, between chance and an actual attack.

Correct. I see it more like this, it prevents you from running across a shark while you're drifting across the ocean. It wouldn't work if the GM tells the mage that he sees a shark fin coming towards him, and the mage frantically orders his spirit to guard him (assuming it hadn't been previously). The shark is still free to bite whatever it wants, the guard power would simply prevent the mage from coming across one. (Doing this by the GM saying "Nothing much happens and you drift back to shore around location X")

Then we're on the same page. Just were reading it different ways.

Works for me!