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nathanross
Well, I started working on this some time ago we were discussing on the forums about how similar clubs and blades were (and rifles and assault rifles). I decided to change the skills:

Body
Diving
Parachuting

Agility
Hand Guns (Firearms)
Shouldered Arms (Firearms)
Heavy Weapons (Firearms)
Small Arms (Melee), Reach 0
Long Arms (Melee), Reach 1
Pole Arms (Melee), Reach 2
Projectile Weapons
Throwing Weapons
Unarmed Combat
Gymnastics (Athletics)
Infiltration (Stealth)
Palming (Stealth)
Escape Artist

Reaction
Dodge
Pilot Aerospace
Pilot Aircraft
Pilot Anthroform
Pilot Groundcraft
Pilot Watercraft

Strength
Climbing (Athletics)
Running (Athletics)
Swimming (Athletics)

Charisma
Etiquette
Instruction
Intimidation
Negotiation

Intuition
Navigation (Wilderness)
Survival (Wilderness)
Tracking (Wilderness)
Disguise (Stealth)
Shadowing (Stealth)
Assensing
Gunnery

Logic
Computer (Computer)
Decking (Computer)
Programming (Computer)
Cybertechnology (Electronics)
Electronic Warfare (Electronics)
Electronics (Electronics)
Aeronautics Mechanic
Armorer
Automotive Mechanic
Biotech
Demolitions
Industrial Mechanic
Nautical Mechaninc

Willpower
Astral Combat

Magic
Arcana
Conjuring
Enchanting
Ritual Sorcery
Sorcery

Resonance
Threading
Tasking


Some things to note:
  • Lockpicking is rolled into Palming (or a seperate knowledge skill)
  • Forgery is taken care of using Artisan, which is now seperate for each skill, and treated as knowledge skill.
  • Exotic Weapons are used by whatever the closest weapon category is, and is no longer purchased seperately.
  • Perception is not a skill, and is instead an Intuition + Logic test (as it should have been)
  • Gunnery is sensor assisted firing, Heavy wepaons is mounted firing (or missile, etc)
  • Magic and Computer skills have been greatly reduced in price, and should be balanced elsewhere.

Hope you like! It is sure easier for me.
Drogos
What happened to Counterspelling, Binding and Banishing?

Still not a huge fan of these because I think they got it right in the game, but some of your ideas seem interesting. I'm just not sure if you made certain skills FAR too valuable (though dropping locksmithing and rolling it into something else was a good idea...change the name of Palming to Larceny or something though).
Larme
I really think that while dividing up guns according to size makes sense, it makes shouldered arms too good. Per standard, automatics is really good because you can have ARs and SMGs. But it has the drawback that you can't use it for shotguns or (especially) sniper rifles. But now every powerful AR and SMG (at least those SMGs with stocks) will be included in the same group as sniper rifles, and shotguns too while you're at it? That's just too awesome. You don't have to make a choice. Any gun character now must take shoulder arms, the only question is how much he puts into hand guns. The balance of SR4 is that it makes you decide between sniper rifles and ARs and doesn't let you have both for the price of just one skill. No more choices, less versatility, less interesting chargen and characters. Realism is coming at the cost of playability, which to me is always a bad trade.
nathanross
First, Banishing and Binding is taken care of via Conjuring skill alone. Counterspelling is achieved by holding out dice from your Sorcery pool (max removed = Sorcery skill level). I like the balance of this.

Larme, I do understand your feelings. I personally draw the line for Hand Guns after SMGs, and Shouldered Arms after rifles (Heavy is machine guns, grenades, missiles, etc). I dont think it makes Shouldered a necessary group, as most of my characters never own a rifle to begin with (cant exactly keep it hidden under your coat during the meet). This is the balance in my games, as I play up the social side much more. Also, I do like a simpler char gen.
SprainOgre
Hmm, I don't think I'd counterspell for my group very often, but the way you set it up does make sense. I just don't want to cut my dice pool in half, or choose one or the other every time. I'm either A) weak at casting. B) leaving my team in a lurch against the other spell slinger. Or C) not doing anything but counterspelling, and that's only maybe if the other mage realizes that's what I'm doing. Which means I sit there and twiddle my thumbs, wondering if I need to keep my dice back to stop incoming spells every pass, or simply choose to go last (which takes away from the fun of having Increased Reflexes going)...

The weapon categories means you don't need to invest points later on when you're buying/using sniper rifles, and not just your shotguns or SMG's. Now you get the option for both, from the same skill pool, and the utility of sniper rifles and their ilk later on. Pluses and minuses.

I both like, and dislike the change for perception. One can train themselves to be more aware of their surroundings. However, there's also a lot of natural ability to be highly observant... Sherlock Holmes, for example, was both a natural at it, and had trained his mind for it.
Drogos
Ick...the change to counterspelling is a terrible idea. I really think it's best the way it is in the main book because it actually makes counterspelling a viable tactic. There is no mage that would split thier dicepool like that. It just handicaps you too much. Whenever I make a spellslinger I generally go 5 Spellcasting/5 Counterspelling because it is so useful (and mandatory) for the Shadowrunners to use the skill. I do like all the Spirit skills in one, but you mentioned lowering the cost which is just silly considering you made it the equivalent of three skills.
MarCazm
So if i put a shoulder pad on my pistol its shouldered arms?

Or dividing weapon melee skills addicted through reach?

What kind of brainfart is that? No disrespect. (watched too much daily show i guess) biggrin.gif

If i got a blade skill it really doesn't matter how long it is. Same goes for Clubs.

I don't need a third skill where two skills are doing the job very well.

And firing a rifle and firing an automatic rifle, there is actually a difference. The automatic fire.

And Lockpicking has nothing in common with palming besides using your fingers.

The skills work just fine in the way how they are.
ElFenrir
I mainly like this. I have a few nitpicks, but ill be constructive about them.

1. I think you forgot Leadership. Did you fold that one in with something? Or is it just a normal Charisma-linked skill as it was?

2. I like the Conjuring change. But I agree; put Counterspelling as seperate. However, I would roll together Sorcery and Ritual Sorcery. I'd say that Spellcasting/Ritual Sorcery would make a good specialization of Sorcery. Ive noticed you ditched skill groups for these. I guess it makes sense, since Conjuring is now rolled into one, and there just isn't room for any skill groups here. Im actually cool with that too.

3. Does the Influence Group still exist? I personally kinda like that one. (I also like to point out in my games, Interrogation is a viable specialization for several of the social skills-you can do it by scaring them, you can do it more subtly.)

4. I LOVE the melee changes. Really, Exotic Weapon just rubs me the wrong way. Fack. Especially with crap like whips(ok, so i need seperate skills to use my chain, my whip, and my electric cord? yeah, whatever. And don't say Game Balance because a damn whip is not a broken weapon. Ok, Monowhips are awesome, yes. But a chain??), and even better-stuff like boot knives. I had a character I converted from 3e; he used retractable knives and some spikes on his boots when fighting with kicks; they didn't add range or anything, but it made his kicks a little more dangerous. Nowadays, that's apparently an exotic weapon(it said blades used in odd areas. This counts legs. Yeah, his foot was really odd. I guess he forgot how to kick when the knife came out.) I am almost 99% changing Melee into something like this myself. Why would a retractable knee blade be 'odd' for a Muay Thai master?

5. The Firearm changes, though-I admit I have a bit of skepticism on. Handguns are just fine; makes perfect sense. Pistols, Tasers, and Machine Pistols, right? The Shouldered Arms, though-yeah, that ties in...ARs, SMGs, Shotguns, Rifles. Heavy Weapons are-Machine Guns, Assault Cannons, all that fun stuff. I guess I do have somewhat of a like of keeping the SMG/ARs/MPs in one group, and the Longarms/Shotguns in another-BUT your way does seem to have some merit. Right now, if you only take 'One' Firearms skill, it seems Automatics is the one to take-you can use MPs if you need something small and quiet(since they can just be used as a regular pistol as well), as well as heavier stuff like SMGs and ARs. This one seems to make the 'Shouldered Arms' group ''The One'', since it wraps up-4 different kinds?

I think i'd try it, though. I definately wouldn't discredit it until giving it a go. I take it those three go together into Firearms Group?

6. The three melee skills and Unarmed Combat are Close Combat Group, correct? That just got a little stronger, too-4 skills instead of 3(the 4-skill groups seem to offer the best 'discount' at chargen, but of course at the cost of specializing.) Or-did you seperate them into Unarmed Combat as a non-grouped skill, and Melee into the Melee Skill Group? That's not too bad, actually.

7. I like how you cut down Resonance skills. Technomancers are already painfully point-strapped.

8. Gunnery not linked to Agility. Thank you.

9. Perception now Intuition and Logic. Believe it or not-Im torn here. For the longest time, I was like ''Blah, why isn't it Intuition + Logic???'' I think for like, over a year or something. But after awhile, I kinda realized I liked to have a character that could be really hot in Perception without having to completely juice their Logic AND Intuition scores. (Intuition is the biggie here, IMO.) I kinda liked having a really, really intuitive(Int 5), but not necessarily book-trained, very average Logic(2) character, where I could dump a good 3-4 points into Perception with a Specialization and have them really great at noticing things(my martial artist fits this to a T. He's got Visual Perception and a great Intuition-he can see someone doing something even before they do it. But he's strictly average booksmarts.) After I did this kinda thing with a few characters, I really began to actually like the perception skill. Arg. But im still torn. I'd give it a try, perahps. naturally audio/visual/olfactory enhancements would help(Logic+Int+Applicable Enhancements), and see how it works before discrediting it. smile.gif

10. No Mechanic group anymore? I admit i kinda like that. I notice overall you shaved down the groups. Electronics, Computer, Stealth, Wilderness, Athletics, Melee, Firearms by the look of things. (Missing: Biotech, Mechanic, Influence. Sorcery and Conjuring are folded so they are no longer needed, so i won't count them. Cracking seems to be Computer, which is cool. Tasking is cut down enough where it's not needed.

Again, this looks solid. Im actually almost willing to give this a go when I run my ''two-three day oneshot'' in a month to see how it works out. Ill see what i like/don't like and can always tweak it up.
Aaron
As someone who fights with melee weapons as a hobby, I can't agree with the way that the melee weapon skills are grouped. There's a huge difference between fighting with a short sword, a flail, and a nunchaku. There's an even bigger difference between fighting with a pole arm and a three-part-staff.

As someone who knows how to pick locks and do close-up magic (which includes picking people's pockets), I can't agree that they are related skills.

However, it's up to the GM and the players what sort of rules they want to use, so I also can't object.
ElFenrir
I can totally believe you that they're different, even with my rudimentary blade knowledge(im pretty decent with a knife/pair of knives. I suck with anything larger.) Even in the current rules, though, you'll find discrepancies like that that don't necessarily match in real life. The Blades skill lumps together knives, short swords, long swords, really long swords(no-dachi, claymore), as well as cyber-implanted blades and combat axes. Even in SR3 rules, which REALLY broke stuff down, had ''Edged Weapons'' which again, lumped together every edged weapon with a reach of 1 or less.

I think they figured it's one of those things ''Realism'' vs. ''Fun and Sanity'', the same reason why the SR automatic firearms don't have RL firing rates.
Larme
QUOTE (nathanross @ Apr 30 2008, 04:44 PM) *
First, Banishing and Binding is taken care of via Conjuring skill alone. Counterspelling is achieved by holding out dice from your Sorcery pool (max removed = Sorcery skill level). I like the balance of this.


I agree with everyone, horrible idea. It has no balance. Mundanes will get clobbered by spells unless they both have a high willpower and high edge, and even then it will only last as long as their edge. This system worked in SR3 because anyone with a halfway decent willpower had a decent chance of resisting magic already. But in SR4 they don't, they need their mage friend to provide full counterspelling, full time.
nathanross
QUOTE (MarCazm @ May 1 2008, 06:32 AM) *
If i got a blade skill it really doesn't matter how long it is. Same goes for Clubs. I don't need a third skill where two skills are doing the job very well. And Lockpicking has nothing in common with palming besides using your fingers. The skills work just fine in the way how they are.

Unfortunately, I have to disagree that the skills are fine the way they are (otherwise I would not have felt so compelled to change them). I find it strange that you disagree with Aaron that all blades are the same. I also disagree even with my own grouping in terms of realism. Unfortunately, it would suck had for martial artists if they have to buy a separate skill for each weapon (aka, the exotic weapons problem). This was one of the biggest reasons for the initial adoption of guns as the primary tools of war. They allowed lightly trained soldiers to be effective against highly trained and skilled knights. Much cheaper. I find dividing them by reach more effective than dividing them by cutting edge. As for lock picking, mechanical locks are so rare in my games that I feel no need for the characters to waste BP on a separate (and useless) skill. I really wish I could have found somewhere to put Escape Artist, but so far no luck.

QUOTE (ElFenrir @ May 1 2008, 06:54 AM) *
1. I think you forgot Leadership. Did you fold that one in with something?

3. Does the Influence Group still exist? I personally kinda like that one. (I also like to point out in my games, Interrogation is a viable specialization for several of the social skills-you can do it by scaring them, you can do it more subtly.)

Yes, Leadership is now rolled into Intimidation (as I feel it should be). I dont see why getting people to do something through force of will should be a different skill depending on how they view their social position relative to you. I consider that a DP modifier depending on the situation. As for Influence group, after I cut down Social skills to only 4 (Con into Negotiation, Leadership into Intimidation, Etiquette, and Instruction), I felt no reason to make them cheaper.

QUOTE (ElFenrir @ May 1 2008, 06:54 AM) *
2. I like the Conjuring change. But I agree; put Counterspelling as seperate. However, I would roll together Sorcery and Ritual Sorcery. I'd say that Spellcasting/Ritual Sorcery would make a good specialization of Sorcery.

I can kind of see what you mean. I mainly decided to go with the SR3 version of things, but I guess your take is more progressive.

QUOTE (ElFenrir @ May 1 2008, 06:54 AM) *
5. The Firearm changes, though-I admit I have a bit of skepticism on.

I understand everyone's issue with shouldered arms. It does lump most of the prized guns in one group. I actually group SMGs into Handguns purely for balance reasons. My primary reason for grouping Firearms thus, is the same as my grouping of melee weapons. I would much rather have one skill for one weapon at all times than multiple skills depending on how I am firing it. I do not like the idea of having to use Longarms or Pistols to fire something SA, but Automatics to fire it in Burst or FA. That just seems stupid to me (from a balance perspective).

QUOTE (ElFenrir @ May 1 2008, 06:54 AM) *
6. The three melee skills and Unarmed Combat are Close Combat Group, correct?

No, actually. I have separated Unarmed from Close Combat entirely (I also renamed it Melee Weapons group)

QUOTE (ElFenrir @ May 1 2008, 06:54 AM) *
10. No Mechanic group anymore? I admit i kinda like that. I notice overall you shaved down the groups. Electronics, Computer, Stealth, Wilderness, Athletics, Melee, Firearms by the look of things.

As an automotive mechanic, I found the mechanic group quite silly. I would allow someone to default to another mechanic skill (at a -4DP mod), but I really dont see an environment where you are trained in all of them at the same time. As for the groups, I cut down where I could. Biotech group always annoyed me, as I feel medicine encompasses a TON of knowledge skills, and Cybertechnology had more to do with electronics than anything. Now we once again have a stand alone Biotech group (Surgery, First Aid, most shit a Shadowrunner needs to do). It also feels good to separate Computers and Electronics again. Influence was explained above.

QUOTE (Larme @ May 1 2008, 10:06 AM) *
I agree with everyone, horrible idea. It has no balance. Mundanes will get clobbered by spells unless they both have a high willpower and high edge, and even then it will only last as long as their edge. This system worked in SR3 because anyone with a halfway decent willpower had a decent chance of resisting magic already. But in SR4 they don't, they need their mage friend to provide full counterspelling, full time.

YES! Thank you for pointing out one of the greatest problems with SR4: Spell Resistance. Higher Willpower or Body really meant something in SR3, since it was the TN to hit. I hate Counterspelling in its current version because it has to be there; you have to have a mage to just survive. It also does not act like any other skill (except Dodge, and at least that is properly used with its linked attribute), as it is added as a DP mod to Spell Resistance tests, not as a skill test. I have considered an inate spell resistance, where the hits must surpass Bod/2 or Wil/2 (round down) + Hits on the test. This would greatly ease the casters load and at least give mundanes a hope in hell when alone.
ElFenrir
QUOTE (nathanross @ May 2 2008, 02:51 AM) *
Yes, Leadership is now rolled into Intimidation (as I feel it should be). I dont see why getting people to do something through force of will should be a different skill depending on how they view their social position relative to you. I consider that a DP modifier depending on the situation. As for Influence group, after I cut down Social skills to only 4 (Con into Negotiation, Leadership into Intimidation, Etiquette, and Instruction), I felt no reason to make them cheaper.


Hmm...I can see where you're coming from, but Leadership can be very subtle, too. I mean, don't get me wrong-so can Intimidation(Mental intimidation. Where the person might not even be threatening someone, yet threatening them all at the same time), but Im still wondering how they are the same skill. Now, Con and Negotiation I can buy being one skill. I can see one skill being used to bargain, fast-talk, sense motive...yeah.





QUOTE (nathanross @ May 2 2008, 02:51 AM) *
I understand everyone's issue with shouldered arms. It does lump most of the prized guns in one group. I actually group SMGs into Handguns purely for balance reasons. My primary reason for grouping Firearms thus, is the same as my grouping of melee weapons. I would much rather have one skill for one weapon at all times than multiple skills depending on how I am firing it. I do not like the idea of having to use Longarms or Pistols to fire something SA, but Automatics to fire it in Burst or FA. That just seems stupid to me (from a balance perspective).


I can see your reasoning here. It DOES clean things up a bit. And if more people end up taking Shouldered Arms, well...i guess it won't be much more different than most people taking Automatics these days. smile.gif I admit there is a nice cleanliness to not having to switch skills every time you want to fire your gun differently.


QUOTE (nathanross @ May 2 2008, 02:51 AM) *
No, actually. I have separated Unarmed from Close Combat entirely (I also renamed it Melee Weapons group)


Yeah, i picked up on that after re-reading it. I can see it. Right now, you take Close Combat at 3 and you're automatically proficient in everything from swords to knives to axes to clubs to staves to any kind of fighting or martial art. Well, ok, with the new Melee group you still will be, but sans the unarmed combat(which well could be seperate.) I guess Cyber-Implants are in the Small Blades section, unless its a shock hand?

QUOTE (nathanross @ May 2 2008, 02:51 AM) *
As an automotive mechanic, I found the mechanic group quite silly. I would allow someone to default to another mechanic skill (at a -4DP mod), but I really dont see an environment where you are trained in all of them at the same time. As for the groups, I cut down where I could. Biotech group always annoyed me, as I feel medicine encompasses a TON of knowledge skills, and Cybertechnology had more to do with electronics than anything. Now we once again have a stand alone Biotech group (Surgery, First Aid, most shit a Shadowrunner needs to do). It also feels good to separate Computers and Electronics again. Influence was explained above.


Again, i can see your point here. It IS a bit odd in the regular group that you can know how to fix everything from cars to boats to toasters. The Computers and the Electronics change is pretty cool, as I said. And honestly, we raarely used any Biotech-like skill but First Aid in our games(i had a tech-wiz with a couple points in Cybertech in SR3, and he used it to help tweak out his cyberleg, but his street doc still did the bulk of it, naturally. That was about it.)


QUOTE (nathanross @ May 2 2008, 02:51 AM) *
YES! Thank you for pointing out one of the greatest problems with SR4: Spell Resistance. Higher Willpower or Body really meant something in SR3, since it was the TN to hit. I hate Counterspelling in its current version because it has to be there; you have to have a mage to just survive. It also does not act like any other skill (except Dodge, and at least that is properly used with its linked attribute), as it is added as a DP mod to Spell Resistance tests, not as a skill test. I have considered an inate spell resistance, where the hits must surpass Bod/2 or Wil/2 (round down) + Hits on the test. This would greatly ease the casters load and at least give mundanes a hope in hell when alone.


You know, i was always trying to think about this myself. Should Magic be dangerous? Yes. Should magic automatically hose everyone who doesn't use it if they don't have their own mage? NO. And this goes for both sides-Ive seen groups of mooks mowed down with a PC cast spell as well as PCs nearly killed/flat out knocked out. And yes, the target number has to do with it. The typical shadowrunner(non magical), it seems, judging by the lots of sample characters Ive seen on this board and in the book, usually has a Willpower around 3(4 for dwarves). This sometimes goes down to 2/3. It occationaly goes up to 4/5 for a non-magical character, but it's rare.

I almost considered one day trying out a Threshold method. Basically, you have to beat the Body/Willpower threshold. Yeah, this makes guys like Orks a little less vulnerable to the powerball-but it worked out fine in SR3 and down, IMO. That's what the Manaball was for. (Naturally, Indirect/Elemental maniupulations don't follow this, so you can Lightning Bolt to you're hearts content.) But as for the 'Direct Combat Spells', I might try out a session using thresholds. This I feel can sort of ''recreate'' the old target number. A good mage can still mess someone up-5 spellcasting and 5 magic gets 10 dice, and can more than likely nail that 3 willpower(and almost definately nail the 2), with a base damage equal to the target's Force(with net hits adding, naturally). Now, this does make Willpower a bit more important(Body most people don't skimp on anyway. In fact, this is sort of my fear. Im afraid it will make the Powerbolt/Powerball spell basically useless.) But yeah, at least it makes it matter, and an opposing mage against a team without one doesn't mean automatic death(or more likely, knockout. Due to shorter stun tracks, those stun spells are really good.) Then again, this could severely cut down even the Will spells, since a mage needs...4 hits to start net hitting a Will 3-but perhaps if they hit get hits equal to the Stat the spell will go off-just at it's base power(this way all they need is 3 hits to hit the 'typical runner'.) It still might be a bit too harsh on the mages, though. I wish there were an easy fix for this.

Even if I made the Threshold Stat -1, Power-based spells would bascially be delegated to not that useful-then again, in SR3 and down-not many people I know used the powerbolt/powerball spells as much. They had their uses; but Mana Bolt was by far the more used single-target attacker, with Stunball being the chosen group-hitter.
Drogos
Where in the RAW does iit say you switch your skill rolled if you are in one firing mode versus another? I must have missed that question.gif

And as for thresholds to magic, I say the appropriate resistance stat /2 round up would work best. That way Dwarves at hard max are damn near impossible to take out with a spell and Orks and Trolls still eat it on Mana spells. Also gives a solid argument to take indirect combat spells as well instead of just Manabolt/Powerbolt. Of course, it does take the wind out of mages sails, but they'll get over it after they initiate a dozen or so times. Hmm...maybe make an initiation power where they can decrease the Resistance, make it work for living and then another for non-living to bypass OR. I like this idear biggrin.gif
MarCazm
QUOTE (nathanross @ May 2 2008, 08:51 AM) *
Unfortunately, I have to disagree that the skills are fine the way they are (otherwise I would not have felt so compelled to change them). I find it strange that you disagree with Aaron that all blades are the same. I also disagree even with my own grouping in terms of realism. Unfortunately, it would suck had for martial artists if they have to buy a separate skill for each weapon (aka, the exotic weapons problem). This was one of the biggest reasons for the initial adoption of guns as the primary tools of war. They allowed lightly trained soldiers to be effective against highly trained and skilled knights. Much cheaper. I find dividing them by reach more effective than dividing them by cutting edge.


The only difference between Blades and Clubs is wether you wield it two handed or one handed. That requires really a different skill. Because it's a different way of using the weapon. So i would only make two melee skills. One for one-handed and one for two-handed weapons. And exotic melee weapon really is unnecessary.

For example if you use a tonfa to punch so the longer part is under your ellbow it's quite similar like a sporn to use.

If i can use swords then i also can use knifes. Same goes for clubs. If i can use a club i can use a sword or a stick. If someone have found his weapon of choice he specializes himself with it.
nathanross
QUOTE (ElFenrir @ May 2 2008, 05:09 AM) *
I almost considered one day trying out a Threshold method. Basically, you have to beat the Body/Willpower threshold.

I felt that this was too high a resistance and makes spells far too weak. My proposed method effectively reduces Force by 1-3 for most characters, which is quite a bit. Then they get 1-6 dice to reduce hits even further. I think that is enough. Trolls are once again the awesome at taking the powerbolt, and still suck at taking the manabolt. This is how it should be.

Just to clarify my method:

The spellcasting test must beat object resistance or Willpower/2 (round down) + Hits scored on the resistance test for mana spells and Body/2 (round down) + Hits scored on the resistance test for Physical spells when cast on a living creature.

Spells are unique in that they cost part of the mage to cast, not nuyen for bullets. If a spellcaster is laying down the bolts and balls as much as a sammy is laying down bullets, they WILL be hurting at the end of the run (and may develop an addiction to stimulants). This is the primary reason why I disagree with gimping magic too much. I do think a little boost to mundanes is desperately needed though.
nathanross
DOUBLE POST
Aaron
QUOTE (nathanross @ May 2 2008, 12:51 AM) *
I find it strange that you disagree with Aaron that all blades are the same.

This seems to be saying that I stated that all blades are the same. Am I reading it wrong?
SprainOgre
QUOTE (nathanross @ May 2 2008, 01:51 AM) *
YES! Thank you for pointing out one of the greatest problems with SR4: Spell Resistance. Higher Willpower or Body really meant something in SR3, since it was the TN to hit. I hate Counterspelling in its current version because it has to be there; you have to have a mage to just survive. It also does not act like any other skill (except Dodge, and at least that is properly used with its linked attribute), as it is added as a DP mod to Spell Resistance tests, not as a skill test. I have considered an inate spell resistance, where the hits must surpass Bod/2 or Wil/2 (round down) + Hits on the test. This would greatly ease the casters load and at least give mundanes a hope in hell when alone.

Only when fighting other mages, and only if you don't geek that SOB as soon as you can. And an invisible mage is going to run you through the ringers every time. That and it only hurts PC mages. NPC's either don't necessarily need to worry, or in really dangerous areas, going in pairs (one dedicated counter spelling and support, the other a combat mage). It hits the PC mage, 'cause if he even suspects that there's something fishy, he's going to be expected to hold back some of his juice to counter, just in case. Cause the one time he doesn't, that's when the area affect roasting spell comes in. Hell, a mean GM can even have that mage stay invis and hidden for a few rounds, and then when the PC stops holding back for the counter, WHAMO!!

The innate for anyone kinda sucks for the spell slingers too. I'd be pissed if I hit some chump lone star guard with a force 5 stunbolt, and since I only got one hit, he just shrugs it off, instead of trying to resist the 6S of damage (sucks, but it happens). I might as well just shoot him with a ares pred with gel rounds (7S base with that if memory serves), since I know that at least one hit will still connect. Or lob a stun grenade. Or just call up a spirit to eat his face... And on that note, good luck effecting spirits with any sort of reliability if they get it too...

If you want to play with numbers for magic and resisting it, that's fine, but those ideas seem fought with peril...
Apathy
I think that having to beat a Will/2 threshold is a bit too harsh IMO. Once you factor in a point of background count (-1) partial cover (-2) and partial light (-2), you're looking at spells being much worse than pistols.

Instead, I'd recommend going with the rule that's already used for health spells: -1 for every full point off the essence. So a full out street sam (0.5 essence, 4 Willpower) has 9 dice to resist. And a comparable mage (magic 5, spellcasting 6) has 10 dice to attack. The mage wins, but not too consistently. Then his team's mage can choose to use a point or two of his sorcery 'pool' for spell defense to tip the scales in the sam's favor without totally hosing his own offensive ability.
ElFenrir
Wait, partial light and cover? I always thought with Mana spells...you see any part of the person, you nail them, since it works from the inside. If someone is standing behind a wall with their head out....ok, i could be not recalling correctly(or when we played we were using old rules without even realizing it-we read the book but can't recall every single rule, naturally)-but having any part of your body exposed to a mage nailing a Mana or Power spell was just as bad as standing out in the open.
nathanross
QUOTE (Aaron @ May 2 2008, 02:02 PM) *
This seems to be saying that I stated that all blades are the same. Am I reading it wrong?

YES! I am saying that his opinion (all blades and clubs are the same) is different from your opinion that they are all very different. Sorry for my confusing language.

QUOTE (Apathy @ May 2 2008, 03:28 PM) *
Instead, I'd recommend going with the rule that's already used for health spells: -1 for every full point off the essence. So a full out street sam (0.5 essence, 4 Willpower) has 9 dice to resist.

I am so against that. Now the ones with the best chance of resisting spells are the sammys (or cybered mages as they have counterspelling as well as a higher willpower). That just does not help game balance. I would much rather have it the other way, where Sammys have LESS dice to resist as they have less soul left in their body, making them more vulnerable.

QUOTE (ElFenrir @ May 2 2008, 03:34 PM) *
Wait, partial light and cover?

I am somewhat with you Fenrir. I usually treat visibility mods as -DP to spellcasting, but not cover unless the spell is Single target indirect.
ElFenrir
I recall the Indirect Spells having cover count. We play it like that, at any rate; the Flamethrower shoots out and hits someone; it can be blocked by a wall just like a bullet. But yeah, the Direct Combat spells which affect the person from the inside out; the Wall won't matter, unless they are fully covered(as the mage needs to see them). I could see how visibility counts-but low-light i don't know if it would offer much protection against a spell that burns you from the inside out if all the mage has to do is point and cast. Unless it's counting ''getting the right target'', which could explain the DP modifier, come to think of it. smile.gif
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