Yamaha Sakura Fubuki: It is listed under light pistols, but is capable of burst fire. Does it use Pistols (Semi-Automatics) or Automatics (Machine Pistols)?

Ares Viper Slivergun: It is listed under heavy pistols, but is capable of burst fire. Does it use Pistols (Semi-Automatics) or Automatics (Machine Pistols)?

Remington Roomsweeper: It is listed under heavy pistols, but is a shotgun. Does it use Pistols (Semi-Automatics) or Longarms (Shotguns)?

I generally say it uses the skill based on where it's listed, not based on what comes out of the barrel.

Pistols(light), pistols(heavy), and pistols(heavy).

Ares Viper Slivergun pistol semi maybe a new one for Bust firing pistols
same as above for the Yamaha Sakura Fubuki
as for the

Remington Roomsweeper you could allow both cross over skill or have it a plan old pistol semi or its own pistol class

They all use Pistols. As for specialties on them, I'd allow semi-automatics to be rolled only when the weapons are not fired in burst fire. If you took light or heavy as a specialization, then those would be rolled as appropriate.

Maybe I'm playing a different edition than others. In SR4, there is no light or heavy pistol specialization.

Pistols (Agility)

The Pistols skill governs the use of all types of hand-held firearms, including hold-outs, light and heavy pistols, and tasers.
Default: Yes
Skill Group: Firearms
Specializations: Hold-Outs, Revolvers, Semi-Automatics, Tasers

@Dumori: The "burst firing pistols" would be Automatics (Machine Pistols), if you ask me.

Whatever the case, seems that most believe these use the Pistols skill. I guess the specialization would be Semi-Automatics, if I don't want to go about creating a new specialization just for these odd cases.

Yes, there is not a RAW spec of heavy pistols. Semi-auto would apply only if firing the pistol in semi-auto mode.

There are a few other weapons that would fall into the "Not and SMG or MP, listed as a Pistol type weapon" list including the Guardian. I don't think creating an automatic pistols specialization wouldn't be out of line really, IMHO.

The issue I have with this that there's already the Automatics (Machine Pistols) skill and specialization. It seems to me that these burst-capable pistols should be using that skill instead, even if they are listed as light or heavy pistols. As in, why create a new specialization when there's already something that covers it?

Thats exactly why a suggested it as with arsenal there are a few more weapons falling in to this gray area. But theres no reason to say that weapons so different semi exotic that you'll have to take a specialization in that its self the Yamaha Sakura Fubuki and maybe even the Remington Roomsweeper could fall under that. As for the Semi-Automatics specialization for pistols i kind of view it as not how the weapons fired but how it acts and if held as Semi-Automatic is different in ways to a Revolvers and Hold-Outs are very different to the others shorter barrel smaller size. I can see these factor effecting the specialization more than Semi-auto only applying only if fired in semi-auto mode. was hold out and Revolver uses get an advantage.

The RAW specs are only examples. I can see advantages and disadvantages in speccing Heavy or Light rather than Semi or Revolver... One is as broad as the other is tall.

Pistols that have a burst fire mode, like Savalette Guardian would argue for a Pistols(Burst fire) specialisation. This would only apply when the SG was fired in Burst Mode.


I don't see why specialisms can't overlap. A Sav G in burst mode would get the benefit of *either* Automatics (Machine Pistols) or Pistols (Burst Fire). Their base skills apply to different weapons, but the mode change brings the particular example into a different set.

SR4, 111, "The Automatics skill governs the use of personal firearms larger than a pistol, capable of autofire, but typically with a shorter barrel than a longarm."

Just because they have burst fire does not mean they fit in the automatics skill.

Except the guardian is not a machine pistol. Its the same as saying the hold out specialization should apply. Or the revolver. They are not the same.

Also, SR4, 307, "Light Pistols
Use the Pistols skill when firing a light pistol." ... "Heavy Pistols
Use the Pistols skill when firing a heavy pistol." and, "Machine Pistols
Use the Automatics skill when firing a machine pistol."

Arsenal, 21, "LIGHT PISTOLS
Light pistols are the most common noncombat pistols and are primarily used for personal protection by civilians. They can mount barrel- and top-mounted accessories and require the Pistols skill to fire."

Arsenal, 22, "MACHINE PISTOLS
Machine pistols resemble submachine guns, but are significantly smaller and lack the sheer power and abundance of accessories of their larger cousins. They have a top and a barrel mount and require the Automatics skill to use." ... "HEAVY PISTOLS
Th ese handguns are significantly larger than their light pistol relatives and generally viewed as the workhorses of the pistol class. Th ey can be equipped with top- and barrel-mounted accessories and require the Pistols skill for firing."

I guess this game has a whacky definition of a machine pistol, which is why I'm confused. In real life, a machine pistol is any pistol-sized weapon capable of burst or full-auto fire. Obviously the game doesn't mirror real life, so I'll have to throw out the definition of a real machine pistol and go with what the game says.

Basically, yeah.

IRL a machine pistol is just an SMG with a pistol grip

?

I can't think of any SMG that *doesn't* have a pistol grip. Except maybe the P90? I don't know if that qualifies as a pistol grip.

That's just what Webster's told me I couldn't define the true difference between an SMG and an MP or a Pistol capable of firing bursts in terms of a game skill. Abstractions have to be made somewhere and SR just makes the distinction a matter of size and cartridge type. I get that even if it doesn't fully hold up. A Skorpion fires 7.62mm, right? Which is usually thought of as a heavier round than a 9mm, which an MP5 would fire. Mac 11 is chambered for .380 ACP, IIRC. Is it an SMG or an MP? *shrugs* You could debate it forever and never have a real answer.

Most (all? I think the Sakura Fubuki is an exception) of the burst-fire pistols state that "Firing a burst with this weapon is a Complex Action." This implies that using your "typical" burst-firing pistol is not the same as using an automatic weapon which can fire a burst as a Simple Action (and you might even say it's a Specialization-worthy subset of the Pistol skill)

IIRC the Sakura Fubuki is an exception to the Complex Action bit, but it achieves its Burst by firing multiple barrels at once, so the action is like a regular pistol, and not an automatic firearm.

DS

SR doesn't differentiate based on cartridge because the game doesn't specify the cartridges that each weapon fires, except to say generically that only weapons within the same class can interchange ammo. But, you'd be hard pressed to convince me that the Remington Roomsweeper (a shotgun classified as a heavy pistol by the game) fires the same ammo as the Ares Predator IV.

The real life Skorpion fires 7.65x17mm Browning SR (.32 ACP), 9x18mm Makarov, or 9x17mm Short (.380 ACP), according to the wkipedia. Depends on which version you have. All of these cartridges are smaller (or less powerful, if you will) than 9x19mm, which is what I assume you meant by "9mm". There are several 9mm cartridges, afterall, of varying powers (to state it generically).

I classify the MAC-11 as a machine pistol because of its size.

In game terms, the Guardian, Slivergun, Fubuki, and other similar pistols are all machine pistols in my mind. But, as Tarantula pointed out in more or less words, you can't think in real life terms with this game. It just doesn't work.

The funny thing is if you look at the pictures in the books for the machine pistols, most of them look pretty much like normal pistols. The game classifies them differently for no good reason.



It seems kind of random which pistols require a Complex Action.

The Ares Viper Slivergun, Fichetti Executive Action, Ruger Thunderbolt, and Yamaha Sakura Fubuki require a Simple Action.

The Savalette Guardian and Beretta 200ST require a Complex Action.

Now that I've listed it out, there's only 2 that require a Complex Action. The remainder all require only a Simple Action. I don't know what's so special about those that require a Complex Action that the game designers felt the need to gimp them.

There is indeed a canon example of the 'Light Pistol' specialization in SR4. Check out the Technomancer template on page 103 of the core book. If there can exist a specialization for a 'Light Pistol' , then there is no reason for 'Heavy Pistol' not to also be a valid choice.

Ah, my bad - I've only looked at the guns in Arsenal lately.

DS

By RAW, they all use "Pistols" skill, and the "semi-automatic" specialization would apply to them. Once cooked, they become your problem...

Note that with the term "semi-auto" we have a terminology problem. As specified in the skill specialization, it means semi-automatic loading system (as opposed to a "revolver" which has a manual loading system, i.e. you shove the bullet in the cylinder rather than slapping in a clip). In the combat section, the term "semi-auto" refers to a rate of fire and is a different term all together which happens to be made up of the same letters in the same order and pronounced the same way, while actually referring to the rate at which another round is fired in regard to trigger pull (as opposed to "burst" or "full auto" which fire an entirely different number of bullets than "1" when the trigger is pulled...). (For all you gun-heads out there, I know that's not technically true but I'm trying to get a concept across so please let it pass.)

In summation, you're not specializing in pistols when they're fired 1 shot per trigger pull, you're specializing in pistols which are loaded via a clip and have a slide action system.

Except, that isn't true. You're specializing in pistols operating in the SA firing mode.

I think this is the area that there is disagreement on - does Pistols (Semi-Automatics) mean Pistols with a specialisation in pistols with a semi-automatic firing mechanism or does it mean Pistols with a specialisation in firing them in the SA firing mode.

My view (and I didn't even think of the later option until I read this thread) is that it means pistols with a semi-automatic firing mechanism, in the same way that Pistols (Hold out) means any holdout pistol (irrespective of its firing mechanism), Pistols (Light Pistol) means any Light pistol and Pistols (Taser) means any taser.

To support that view I'd suggest looking at other firearm skills which don't (iirc - I'm at work and my books are at home) have specialisations like 'burst fire' or 'full burst' but instead have specialisations like 'sniper rifle', 'sport rifle' or 'smg'.

Kithran

So, if i buy an ares pred, and put on burst fire on it, i can still use the (semi-auto) firing spec?

If I was the gm yes.

At the end of the day the gm should be the final arbiter - if you want clarification on how he will rule ask him.

And to turn the question on its head - would you have a problem with a player using Automatics(smg) using the spec for both SA and BF firing modes, because it is effectively the same thing.

Kithran

QFE. True for all specialisations. It's the GM's decision on how broadly applicable any specialisation can be.

Hrm, perhaps it would've been clearer if they had spoken more towards the slide mechanism instead of the firing mode.

That makes total sense to me, and I agree with this interpretation. Excellent point about SMGs.

Otherwise, it's odd to me that using the same weapon but with a different mode of fire requires a different specialization. The game simply doesn't go into that fine of differentiation between specializations.

I think it could have been due to assumption on the part of the writer - afterall if you were to ask a non-shadowrun player to list types of pistols you would probably end up with some (or all) of the following - revolver, semi-automatic, flintlock, wheelock. The later two aren't relevant for shadowrun but the former two are both listed as specs.

Kithran

And, if I was asked for "types" of pistols, I'd probably start trying to name manufacturers. A bad assumption, I think.

It is clearer, but only if you're aware that context is an integral part of the English language, and reading in general. There is no "burst" specialization listed under the pistol skill, there is a "revolver" specialization.