How do you treat Licences? Do they licence a character to use a certain TYPE of weapon, or a certain specific one?

Example:
Fake Licence (Carry and Conceal Colt America) Rating 4
OR
Fake Licence (Carry and Conceal Light Pistols) Rating 4
OR
Fake Lience (Pistols) Rating 4
Etc.

And what other kinds of licence do you use in your world?

I think my home state (New York, although not the City) is probably a pretty good look at how it'd all be regulated in the super-paranoid security conscious world of 2071. You have a single concealed permit, but that permit has to have all your handguns registered on it, along with caliber and serial number. Also, if you get stopped by the Star and they run your permit, it'd probably have a pretty solid SIN check behind it, too, so be careful which SIN you attach your permit to. If that permit gets flagged, so do all your firearms.

I figure by 2070, the "right to bear arms" has gone so far in the UCAS, that everyone has conceal and carry rights, unless you have a criminal SIN.

But in some districts its more tasteful not to carry, and likelyhood if you are carrying you might be harrassed, even though there is nothing overtly illeagle about it.

I treat them as specific, separate items; I don't allow broad categories of items like "Light Pistols."

Examples...
Fake License: Colt America
Fake License: Concealed Carry Permit

The Colt America License means you can own a Colt America and the fuzz can't do squat about it (unless its linked to a crime). The concealed carry permit is an extra, but would cover any weapon you have a license for. I don't feel that (in the eyes of the law) there'not much difference between concealed carrying a Warhawk and a Manhunter, when you get right down to it.

I don't usually require people to buy concealed carry permits, but they're a useful add-on to help your credibility if you're caught carrying the thing around. It'll provoke fewer questions, anyway. That's assuming that someone has cause to stop you in the first place. The best defense against that is not being noticed (characters with Blandness can count on getting some serious mileage out of it in my games).

Licensed gun, but no concealed carry:
Officer (cautiously): Well, your permit for this Manhunter seems to be in order Mr. Do, but where exactly are you going with it?
PC: Erm, um... Just a, erm... concerned citizen... Lots of gangs around here, ya know?
Officer (warily): Riiiiight.

Licensed gun with concealed carry:
Officer (cautiously): Well, your permit for this Manhunter seems to be in order Mr. Do, as is your license to carry. I guess you're free to go.
PC: Thanks officer, stay safe out there.

Okay, so you could also consider that an example of a good Con roll vs a failed or glitched one.

And, of course, you need a SIN to license the thing to in the first place... If that gets busted as a fake, all your associated licenses go bye-bye with it. That can get expensive.

Similarly, on the subject of cyberware, you'd need a License for each Restricted item. There's a lot more wiggle room there, because some cyber- and bioware can be implanted to correct genetic conditions or repair damage from accidents, illness, or other maladies.

-paws

I disagree. Considering that a great many UCAS citizens likely work on exterritorial property where their legal carry status is totally different, I would think less people carry then you'd probably think. Besides, an ongoing theme throughout the UCAS is the whole "throw up the walls and ignore the problem" mentality.. and the people that maintain that wall are usually portrayed as having a frigging ton of guns, drones, helicopters, armed T-Birds, and more, so most citizens probably feel safe enough in A and B sectors that they wouldn't anyway.

I mean, I could see Ares promoting "gun culture" within their citizen-employees, more as a way of cultivating an internal market then actually promoting safety. However, A significant number of the major sprawls in the UCAS are portrayed as "big brother"-style, New York City being the prime example. I can't see many people carrying in high-class areas with thick borders, huge surveillance networks, and very well-equipped security, though. SINless areas like the Barrens are obviously a whole separate case.

One of the advantages of the Have-Nots that I'd give them is Gun Ownership. The rich would depend on their security guards (Check this link for an example, it's in the Shadowtalk.).

The shrinking middle-class see just how close the barbarians are at the gates, and are arming up to protect their own little castles.

License for a specific weapon. In theory they owner would likely take care of this while buying the weapon.

Concealed carry would be a more general license. As long as you have it you're ok to carry anything else that you have a license for, but it does not cover weapons you lack licenses for.

So if you had this:
License (Colt America)
License (Concealed Carry)

Then you could carry that Colt and conceal it, no problems (barring entry into private property or other fun reasons to take away Runner's weapons). On the other hand it would NOT allow you to carry another weapon, concealed or otherwise. Whether that Colt license applies to a single Colt or all is something you could tweak for plot purposes.

And as paws2sky mentioned all this would be tied to a fake or real SIN number.

I know nothing about RL gun laws. What does a "concealed carry" license let you do (in-game) that a regular license doesn't? Does it just mean that you can carry it without having to wave it around everywhere? If you don't have such a license, you're still fine as long as your weapon is prominently displayed (e.g. in a holster on your hip)?

DS

I don't want my players to be pushing paperwork, so you have a <illegal object license> and thats it.

My reason for differentiating between an ownership licence, a carry licence and a Concealed Carry licence is that as far as i know, in canada at least, you can:

- own a gun (with a licence), but not keep it in your car or on your person, nor carry it in public, unless you are specifically on your way to a sporting event and it is unloaded

- own a gun (with a Carry and Conceal licence) and have it concealed (if you are a private investigator, bodyguard, etc.)

- legally wear a hunting knife on your belt and walk down the street in broad daylight with no licence... but under no circumstances carry around a knife that could be easily hidden in the palm of your hand (a crazier comparison would be that you can carry a fully functional steel sword over the border in your car into canada... but just TRY to bring a bracelet with metal spikes on it, and you get it confiscated as an illegal weapon)

In Germany there are two types of gun licenses:
1. Waffenbesitzkarte (Ownership permit) - you may own one or more firearms (exact number and types depend on type of permit issued). Every gun has to be registered with the authorities.
To get a permit you must be over 18 years old and must be considered "reliable". If you are under 25 years old you must provide a psychologic expertise.
You have to provide proof of taking part in a firearms trainings course with exam.
And you must provide your need for a gun permit, usually by being (a) a registered hunter, (b) a registered sports shooter or © a registered gun collector.
You may not carry your gun(s) in public but you may transport them from your home to a shooting range, etc., provided the gun is unloaded and ammo is transported separatly (e.g. in a different part of your car).

2. Waffenschein (Carry permit): You may own one or more firearms and carry them in public (concealed or open, loaded or unloaded). Every gun has to be registered with the authorities.
To get the permit you must be over 18 years old and must be considered "reliable".
You have to provide proof of taking part in a firearms trainings course with exam.
And you must provide your need for a carry permit, by proving that you are somehow more in danger of being attacked than the general public.
The carry permit must be renewed every three years (each time with a new check of prerequisites and need!).

Those are the basics, the actual law is more complex, of course...

I rule that driving a car without a spoofchip or at least a rating 2 License is akin to having stolen the car.

How would you handle people with the SINner Quality, who are actually using legitimate channels for their licensing? Just roll it all into Lifestyle costs?

The way I handle it:

License: You may own said gun. One license per gun. I consider it a permit/registration deal. I figure any adult SINner can own a gun in SR in Seattle or most of Denver (my two major locations) for home protection/ hunting in appropriate settings, provided they apply for a license, and meet a basic "You aren't a felon; you aren't crazy" test. If you are transporting it, it needs to be unloaded. Any gun that is full auto costs more and has a more stringent check.

Carry permit: This lets you carry any gun you own legally (exception, anythign that's full auto), loaded, on public property. Obviously Corps and private businesses have the right to refuse your admittance. This has a more stringent background check. (Ie. higher SIN test) There is no civilian carry permit in my world for full auto. (Tho', of course, special dispensation by the government is always possible.)

Gun Dealer's permit: A combination of hte above two (You can carry any gun registered to your inventory), with implied permission for the Law to randomly inspect your wares. The test is a bit more stringent (higher rating SIN check) and you must also have a valid business permit (ie. more nuyen.) You need assorted extra stamps (even more nuyen and a harder SIN check) for things beyond basic semi-automatic handguns, shotguns and rifles. You must submit a record of each transaction for sales or purchases of ammo or guns to the state immediately upon sale electronically. The permit must be updated annually.


Vlad

Nope, they need to pay for it independantly in my world.

Vlad

So what does a real licence cost for a character who is for example a bodyquard, does it cost same as a fake licence or something else.

I had been wondering that myself. I then remembered Shadowtech (second edition) had a listing on the prices for legitimate licenses. I should also note that page 107 of Shadowtech has a listing of fines and punishments for not having your paperwork in order as well as fines/punishment for threatening someone with the weapon, use and intent.

*Possession is defined as "The owning or carrying of equipment or weapons designated as restricted access."
*Transport is defined as "The act of carrying or transporting said items, either on one's person or in a vehicle."
I'm treating Transport like a generic conceal/carry permit, ownership of Category F covers Category E

Category A: Small Bladed Weapons
Any sharp-edged, hand-held weapon with a cutting edge under 18cm long.
No price listed. Safety Course?

Category B: Large Bladed Weapons
Blades over 18cm in length. Category includes axes, polearms, cybernetic blade weapons (hand razors and spurs)
Price: 100nY for possession, 250nY for transport.

Category C: Blunt Weapons
This category includes clubs, batons, and all shock weapons(gloves, batons, frills, tazers, etc.).
No price listed. Safety course?

Category D: Projectile Weapons
Covers throwing, and any muscle-powered or mechanically powered ranged weapon. Category includes Spears, Bows and Crossbows.
Price: 125nY for possession, 300nY for transport

Category E: Pistol
Includes any revolver or semi-automatic pistol, regardless of caliber.
Cost: 200nY for possession, 500nY for transport

Category F: Rifle
Includes any single action rifle or manual-action shotgun.
Cost: 300nY for possession, 600nY for transport

Category G: Automatic Weapons
Any weapon whose rate of fire exceeds one bullet per pull of trigger. Includes assault rifles, machine pistols and smgs. Special licenses are available to legit, registered security and law enforcement agencies.

Category H: Heavy Weapons
Cannons, machine guns, and other heavy caliber weapons.
Special licenses are available to legit, registered security and law enforcement agencies.

Category I: Explosives
All explosives, propelled explosives and demolitions charges
Special licenses are available to legit, registered security and law enforcement agencies.

Category J: Military Weapon
Military-grade/issued weaponry not covered by other categories.
Special licenses are available to legit, registered security and law enforcement agencies.

Category K: Military Armor
Any armor (partial or full) intended for law enforcement, military or security work.
Special licenses are available to legit, registered security and law enforcement agencies.

Category L: Military Ammunition
Any special purpose ammunition (APDS, EX, EX-EX etc.) designated for law enforcement, military or security use.
Special licenses are available to legit, registered security and law enforcement agencies.

If there are official updates since second edition, I'd love to hear about it, particularly the cyberware/bioware and magical permits. Otherwise this is the only cannon price list I can recall off of the top of my head without my digging through a crap tonne of books.

I hope this helps

Hey, now, I have a more important question for dealing with Licences!

Fake Liquor Licences!

Retired 'Runners are going to need one for when they can finally afford that bar/club they always wanted!

Why would it not cost the same as a 'fake' license? It should be the same basic process in each case. For both real and fake SINs, it's a matter of just purchasing a license for that particular SIN from the appropriate authority. The license itself should be quite valid even if the SIN it is attached to isn't itself real.

I'm guessing the fake license is more because it's fake. Some one had to drum up the materials to create a forgery and get through the security required to register an entry in a database somewhere.

I think the text on page 323 is kinda sketchy as it suggests that those who don't want to go through the proper legal channels can purchase a fake license. I guess I'm kinda irked because it doesn't even say how to go through the proper legal channels. It would make perfect sense to me that even with my shiny Rating 6 fake SIN that I'd have a decent chance to legally get a gun permit attached to my fSIN if the opposed test works, just like you said.

The one thing I see mentioned in various places is a spellcasting license. Under the Fake License section of ID and Credsticks it's on the list of licenses one might need. I get that how? Hell, licenses are mentioned all over the frakin' place in Street Magic, but it never says how to get one either. It even brings up the topic of licenses for being a Talismonger and Enchanter. No mechanic is given, but I imagine it would be like a business license.

It's like the whole idea of licenses in 4th edition is vaporware. Everyone knows they exist, but you can't find out anything substantial about them. This seems like horrible oversight on the publisher's part. I mean if they aren't going to tell us how to get them, what's the point to talk about them in several books?

OK, here's the real question...

How many of our SINless, criminal, border-line sociopaths (And their buddies that go over that line), are going to want and get one of those legitimate Licences?

None?

That's what I thought.

How do you get them? Talk to your friendly neighbourhood Fixer!

Fixers, they can do more things than NERPS!

Honestly, the only UCAS city we've really got to go on is NYC, right? Most of the others are essentially nebulous in 4th. You have to remember that NYC is corp territory now; they paid to get the place fixed up after the Quake and now they run it as their own private Idaho. The way I've been seeing (and writing) Boston in the 70s doesn't really subscribe to the 'Big Brother' mindset.

Oh, uh, on topic, when I was helping my players do their characters, I just had them buy a fake license for each gun they were purchasing. I'm not one for paperwork either.

[edit] because I'm a tard and posted before i typed anything [/edit]
How many want a real thing? Four of my players do. Keep in mind, three of those four are women (no offense meant) and want to open up a women's clinic funded by their ill gotten gains. They want to make sure their paperwork and permits all check out. Yeah yeah, I'm the story teller, but they keep bringing it up and they tend to go for cannon vs whatever answer I make up on the fly. The other player is a mage, is a sinner and want's his license to practice magic as well as setting up a shop for enchanting. It's mostly downtime fluff, but they still want an official answer.

Life would also be easier if they set up a mechanic so the team's hacker could work his way into whatever system was necessary and just make a license. Hopefully Unwired will cover something like that.

Why go to a fixer, when you could hack the system for free?

How I handle licenses: a license for every Restricted item though you can have as many of said item as you desire. Obviously you can't license every bullet you fire.

Now I have a question: How do license checks (or even SIN checks) work in terms of game mechanics? Maybe I'm missing something but has that been explained in any SR4 rule book? What I've been doing is rolling the license rating as the number of dice and if there's one successful hit then the license passed scrutiny.

No licenses per se, SINs are flagged for a job (like Security Consultant) and automatically have all reasonable licenses for said job. Weapons go by class.

The inner value of the SIN (supposed education etc) can often be as high as the pure rating cost. What would you pay for a rating 6 secret-service-agent SIN? What would you demand for faking the needed documents?

They're an opposed test. Say I have a rating 4 fake conceal/carry permit. Johnny Q. Lawman pulls me over for "driving while meta" and asks if I have any weapons on my person. I say I do and he asks for my concealed weapon permit. I give him my information and he runs it through a rating 3 check.

As a side note, I do my permit checks based on how thorough the check. Some people want to see if there is a record on file that you have one. Some go in depth as to when you got the permit, when did you get the gun, are you the original owner, etc. I'm just going to say he's going to check that the gun is registered to me that the permit is registered to me and that the gun is listed on the permit.

I would have previously ran his ID, my SIN checked out. So I roll my 4 dice for my permit, he rolls 3 dice on his security check. I roll a 2,4,6,5. 2 hit. Johnny Q Lawman rolls and gets a 3,6,5. 2 hits. They match, now what? I usually fluff the answer that the tie goes to the defender (me). It may take minute for the processing to finish, but due to my SIN checking out, the computer decides everything is peachy and says everything is in order. Johnny Q Lawman nods. Says some BS about the vehicle matching the description blah blah blah, apologizes for the mix up and sends me on my way.

Now had the conceal carry permit not worked in my favor, I'd be in all sorts of shit. I'd be riding to the jail house, getting my biometrics into a computer, having a mug shot taken, and sitting in the slammer for a while. All sorts of computers would begin talking and would eventually find out that my fake SIN doesn't check out and stay in jail for a nice long time.

On the other hand, after my successful SIN check, I could have just told him that I didn't have a gun permit for conceal carry. Depending on the cop, he may do a variety of things, but in most cases, I'd say he would confiscate the weapon and issue me a hefty fine. I reference Shadowtech as it lays out a nice set of fines. In this case it would be 1,500

The primary problem I have with all this is that for it to make sense, the Fake SIN has to pass the test. The problem is that with the high variability in SR odds, it follows that a rating 3 SIN check will get more successes than a rating 4 ID a fair amount of the time. (The cope gets two or three successes 7 / 27 of the time. The SIN probably gets only 1. Also the Cop gets 1 success 12 / 27 of the time, and unless you have chosen to accept only 1 success, the ID gets 0 successes 20% of the time.)
So if IDs have to apss rating 3 tests at all frequently, they are going to fail. And then you are in a mess. For Fake IDs to be useful, they better have much less than a 20-25% failure rate.

Once we can sort out ID failure, then it makes sense to ask about carry permits, etc.

Yours,
JoelHalpern

Anyone else find it odd that explosives are limited to security and law enforcement companies? Whatever happened to commercial explosives for demolition and construction companies?

I would find it odd if it was the case. What does stop said company from owning a license?

This is what I'm wondering as well. What's the point in investing 2000+ nuyen in a Fake SIN when it's going to get crushed 80-90% of the time in an opposed roll? I did a quick scan of the BBB and didn't see any opposed test guidelines for checking a Fake SIN or license. Until I see some official rules on this I'm sticking with my method.

Generally, since an ID-check failure can be such a HUGE gamebreaker and ruin everone's fun, I don't leave it up to the dice if their ID rating is higher than that of the test. If it would be a terrible time for my players to fail an ID check, they don't have to roll; it all checks out.

If the ID Check is of a higher rating than the ID in question, THEN we roll.

If for some reason there's a time a failed ID check would BENEFIT gameplay (not necessarily the character - the story is what would get the benefit), I declare it a failure and the char's cover is blown.

Skill test Failure: You fail a task. Try again, soak the damage, or change your mind and run for cover. <--Fun
ID check failure: You are so totally, royally screwed, you might as well take your dice and go home. <--NotFun

That said, even with a successful check, they still have to have the licence for that predator if they don't want to be cuffed, processed, and left to rot.