Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Redlining Question
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Heath Robinson
I'm considering a character who has a customised Cyberhand with human-maximum Strength and redlines it to do some impressive crushing feats, and I was wondering whether the Body stat for the hand itself or for the character's base would be used, the redlining rules are unclear on this in my copy of Augmentation. This is most likely into GM ruling territory, but I'm asking in case there's some unequivocal solution.

I'm assuming that crushing some body part is going to be doing Str/2 damage as well.

Of course I'll probably be loading the guy out with some other ways of doing damage, but this hand alongside some decent social skills would probably be interesting and effective.
samuelbeckett
OK, no unequivocal solution presents itself in the books, but the most likely interpretation hinges on two sections - p.44 of Augmentation and p.335 of the BBB.

Augmentation states that redlining affects the limb and the character, indicating that it is not just the limb that gets damaged. Therefore, if this was a full limb, as per p.335 of the BBB you should take your Body stat and the limb's Body stat and average them. However, p.335 also indicates that in the case of partial limbs (like cyberhands), their stat is only considered if they are solely responsible for the task.

So an amalgam of all that indicates that the crushing uses the Strength of the hand (as that is solely responsible for crushing), but the redline resistance would be normal Body, as the damage is not just affecting the cyberhand, and therefore the cyberhand's Body is not considered.

That is the way I would rule it, but to be honest there is enough hedge room that it could go the other way dependent on the GM.
Larme
My problem with the rules as written is that redlining a cyberhand to crush something should hurt the rest of you a LOT less than redlining a whole arm or leg. I would just handwave it down to 1/2 the normal damage because it's a smaller, less powerful limb overall.

Random thought: Give a cyberskull a strength enhancement, and use it to chomp stuff like Jaws! I wonder if you could fit a hydraulic press into the jaw of a cyberskull... That would be fun biggrin.gif
Drogos
With a capacity of 3, you could have a whole 6 strength on that Cyberskull. Seems pretty flippin useless if you ask me. Of course, you didn't so...
Stahlseele
and of course, remember that there are custom choppaz and optimized chops too *g*
so you could get the skull up to natural strength for example . . think about what a troll could do
horrible image of blowjob gone wrong . .
horrible image of character with that maxed out STR cyberhand:*fap fap fap fa"AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRG!"p*
Heath Robinson
QUOTE (Larme @ May 2 2008, 03:57 PM) *
My problem with the rules as written is that redlining a cyberhand to crush something should hurt the rest of you a LOT less than redlining a whole arm or leg. I would just handwave it down to 1/2 the normal damage because it's a smaller, less powerful limb overall.

Random thought: Give a cyberskull a strength enhancement, and use it to chomp stuff like Jaws! I wonder if you could fit a hydraulic press into the jaw of a cyberskull... That would be fun biggrin.gif

One would think that tuning up a sub-component of a limb would cost quite a bit less than doing so for the whole limb, but the rules overlook it as well. The alternative is to just go for a full limb replacement anyway, since the cost is only a little more in nuyen and the advantages quite significant without any other real disadvantages by RAW. I had intended to work it into character background as an old injury prior to hitting the shadows and losing a hand is slightly more prevalent than losing the entire limb - outside of warzones.

A strength boosted jaw would be great for chowing down on those difficult to chew items like, say, a chromed to the eyes street sam. A troll might be able to chomp through a riot control vehicle. It's perhaps quite niche in application, but there's going to be a little intimidation factor going for you when you bite through someone's gun barrel should it be jammed into your face.

The possibilities when combined with biosculpting and cosmetic cyberlimb mods are interesting.
Drogos
"Shadowrunners--we are the niche, omae!!"
MarCazm
I have a player in my group who wants to replace his both forearms with cyberware, putting Gyrostabilizer and strength in both with a little bulk so that there will be a little more capacity.... Just to have no recoil when firing with two weapons and to deal more damage with his katanas. Those elves these days. biggrin.gif
Nightwalker450
QUOTE (MarCazm @ May 2 2008, 10:35 AM) *
I have a player in my group who wants to replace his both forearms with cyberware, putting Gyrostabilizer and strength in both with a little bulk so that there will be a little more capacity.... Just to have no recoil when firing with two weapons and to deal more damage with his katanas. Those elves these days. biggrin.gif


I don't know if replacing just forearms would increase damage with the Katana... I could see it adding recoil (if you get the STR up to 6 or more), but I think for recoil you were referring more to the Gyrostablizer.
MarCazm
Thats why he will put gyrostabilizer and strength together, because they both add. With the Katana thing I am still doubting myself, though the whole cutting movement comes through the whole body from the hips over the back through the shoulder and than to the forearm. With a complete cyberarm it would be a little easier to handle it by the rules but he just wants the forearms. Lower Essence costs. So i think i will tell him that the strength will not apply to the katanas or punching attacks. Therefore he needs a complete cyberarm.
ElFenrir
Yeah, with a katana? Full arm to get the bonus. Now, if he Strength-jacked his forearms, and say, grabbed someone's neck-that would be serious hurting. But to cut it with the katana, tell him to shell out the extra 1 more essence to get the full limbs. Limbs are stupidly good now; Custom Cyberlimbs with Further Enhancement. And they'd help his over Strength more to cut out even more recoil.
Sombranox
QUOTE (Nightwalker450 @ May 2 2008, 11:44 AM) *
I don't know if replacing just forearms would increase damage with the Katana... I could see it adding recoil (if you get the STR up to 6 or more), but I think for recoil you were referring more to the Gyrostablizer.


I'm not even sure if I'd allow it to add to recoil. The strength-based recoil I see as being a matter of the whole arm. Being able to keep the wrist, elbow, and shoulder joints all locked into position with brute strength to reduce the blasting effect.

Of course, I've always treated partial limbs as having no effect whatsoever statswise unless they are the _only_ joints being used, which mostly comes down to grip strength and only ever really has come into play in comparing strength for disarming at my table.

Then again, I can understand people's arguments in favor of allowing partial mods for specific tasks, including guns, so YMMV.

QUOTE (Drogos @ May 2 2008, 11:11 AM)
With a capacity of 3, you could have a whole 6 strength on that Cyberskull. Seems pretty flippin useless if you ask me. Of course, you didn't so...


I still contend that there are no muscles or other structures in the head which would affect statistics. I only average the four limbs and torso ever. But that's just me and my dislike of the whole averaging versus lowest stat versus limb stats confusion of rules that are cyberlimbs. It's purely a house rule at my table.
Nightwalker450
QUOTE (Sombranox @ May 2 2008, 11:06 AM) *
I still contend that there are no muscles or other structures in the head which would affect statistics. I only average the four limbs and torso ever. But that's just me and my dislike of the whole averaging versus lowest stat versus limb stats confusion of rules that are cyberlimbs. It's purely a house rule at my table.


I like that simplification. I'd even take it a step further and say that there should be no BOD stat for Head or Torso, since they are just shells, internal organs are for the most part kept, and thats really where the BOD comes from on these parts. For legs and arms, the body is the mechanics contained therein, so it works for them. They can still get their Bonus box on damage tracks from skull and torso, but for BOD it Physical Body averaged with 4 limbs for overall body.
HentaiZonga
QUOTE (Nightwalker450 @ May 2 2008, 09:16 AM) *
I like that simplification. I'd even take it a step further and say that there should be no BOD stat for Head or Torso, since they are just shells, internal organs are for the most part kept, and thats really where the BOD comes from on these parts. For legs and arms, the body is the mechanics contained therein, so it works for them. They can still get their Bonus box on damage tracks from skull and torso, but for BOD it Physical Body averaged with 4 limbs for overall body.


Whereas I average Body 6 ways, but Strength and Agility 5 ways (excluding the skull) - that is, when I'm not using my location based system.
Sombranox
QUOTE (Nightwalker450 @ May 2 2008, 12:16 PM) *
I like that simplification. I'd even take it a step further and say that there should be no BOD stat for Head or Torso, since they are just shells, internal organs are for the most part kept, and thats really where the BOD comes from on these parts. For legs and arms, the body is the mechanics contained therein, so it works for them. They can still get their Bonus box on damage tracks from skull and torso, but for BOD it Physical Body averaged with 4 limbs for overall body.


Interesting take. I could see it go either way. In my mind, the torso replaces most of the core skeletal system and so its damage resistance still counts with the whole, but I suppose that could just be handled through armor mods to the torso adding to the underlying flesh body rating.


QUOTE (HentaiZonga @ May 2 2008, 12:18 PM) *
Whereas I average Body 6 ways, but Strength and Agility 5 ways (excluding the skull) - that is, when I'm not using my location based system.


I could also see it this way maybe for the same reason I gave for doing body above. The replacement of the protective structure of the skull would take into account the durability of the cyberskull. My only contention is that it would make skulls for high-body characters extremely high availability potentially to match their stats with custom body attr (since there's no real room to waste capacity on body mods)



Eh, either way, I'll probably still just ignore the skull as anything but a place to stick another couple points of armor (which I have no problem with since protecting the most important organ in the body deserves a bit of extra armor layered on). The torso, for all that it's a shell, I still consider to have synthetic musculature overlaid on it that determine agility/strength and a protective structure that determine body, though I do somewhat like the idea of body being the natural body averaged with the arms and legs instead of just the torso. Will have to give it some more thought.
Larme
IMO the skull is not a full limb, so the only time its attributes count are when you're just using the skull, like with any partial limb. Which only really applies to chomping things really...
Stahlseele
or head-butting, or damage-resistance or . .
and as per the rules, the head IS a full limb . . just as the Torso is . .
and the Torso even counts as TWO limbs concerning armor . .
Larme
I think you're referring to SR3 rules. The rules could be a lot clearer, but look at the example. Critical George has only one set of stats for his cybertorso, it no longer uses front and back torso like SR3 did. And for resisting damage, it does not factor in his skull at all.

Here's what I get from Critical George as well: gone are the days of taking the average of all limbs when averaging your stats. Your natural body just counts as one stat. In SR3, it was leg + leg + arm + arm + torso + skull / 6 = average stat, no matter how many of your limbs were cyber. But in SR4, you count the natural body as just one stat. That's why George goes Torso 6 + arm 3 + leg 5 + natural 3 / 4 = 4.25 Body rounded down to 4. It does not go Torso 6 + arm 3+ natural arm 3 + leg 5 + natural leg 3 + skull 3 / 6 = 3.8 rounded down to 3. The old SR3 of calculating the average of all limbs, whether cyber or not, was one reason why SR3 cyberlimbs was so shitty. My advice is not to perpetuate SR3's mistakes. Let cyberlimbs be a benefit more than a detriment to your players, and they might actually use them and add to the cyberpunk feeling of the game.
Sombranox
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ May 2 2008, 06:56 PM) *
or head-butting, or damage-resistance or . .
and as per the rules, the head IS a full limb . . just as the Torso is . .
and the Torso even counts as TWO limbs concerning armor . .


Where did you get the bit about the torso counting as two limbs for armor? I'm not going to outright say it's wrong, but I've never read anything in SR4 that would imply anything like that.
Stahlseele
*shrugs*
maybe they changed that, i did not get to read the rules in a longer time <.< . .
and yes, the rules for limbs are for the first time in SR-History GOOD enough . .
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012