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manimal
Hello,
I have just started trying to learn shadowrun 4th edition after having played 1st edition many years ago. I have come across many rules that are unclear to me. One of them being the smartlink and how you can use it. I know you can have them installed in cyber eyes or have them put in goggles or eye ware. But there is also a choice to have them just implanted as its own cyberware. Does that mean it somehow manages to use your actual eye ball to display the smartlink info? That doesnt make any sense to me. I appreciate any enlightenment on the subject.
thanks
Cain
All the cybereye mods are available as individual implants. It's just that they cost Essence instead of Capacity. Other than that, try not to think of it too hard. Just imagine that it comes with a limited Image Link, and run from there.
Sombranox
QUOTE (manimal @ May 5 2008, 05:59 PM) *
Hello,
I have just started trying to learn shadowrun 4th edition after having played 1st edition many years ago. I have come across many rules that are unclear to me. One of them being the smartlink and how you can use it. I know you can have them installed in cyber eyes or have them put in goggles or eye ware. But there is also a choice to have them just implanted as its own cyberware. Does that mean it somehow manages to use your actual eye ball to display the smartlink info? That doesnt make any sense to me. I appreciate any enlightenment on the subject.
thanks


I think in its description, it says that it needs an image link. So if you implanted it separately, it wouldn't do anything unless you also implant an image link on the raw eyeball (to display the crosshairs). Which, combined I think is the same cost as just getting the eyes with all the goodies to begin with.

That said, the cheapest way by far is to just get contacts with an image link and smartlink mods and a gun with a smartlink built in or as an accessory. then you run the risk of losing the contacts potentially or having them taken away though.

Regardless of whether you go the cybereye, raw cyber, or contacts route though, smartlinks give a +2 bonus to shoot with any smartlink gun by painting an estimated target in your vision for where the gun is pointing.
MaxHunter
and maybe it is obvious, but you need a smartgun to use the smartlink. Any gun fitted with a smartgun link will do -it connects wirelessly to your smartlink ware and provides info about where you are aming at-

And IMO you do not need an image link for the smartlink to work. If you have one, so much better for you, but it does not help or hinder the smartlink 's performance.


Cheers

Max
CanRay
Nah, the Image Link only gives you that really cool info-HUD like you get in FPS games.

Ammo Remaining, barrel wear, if it's jammed, so on...
XON2000
According to the Smartlink's description (top of pg. 324), an image link is required (unless you're house-ruling it out).
Sombranox
BBB 323-324:

Smartlink: This accessory interacts with a smartgun
system (p. 311) to project the weapon’s angle of fire into
the user’s vision, centering red crosshairs where the user is
pointing and highlighting perceived targets. The smartgun’s
laser rangefinder also calculates and displays the distance
to the target. Additional data from the weapon, such as the
ammunition level, heat buildup, and stress can also be displayed.
Requires an image link.


This is from the first printing pdf though, and it's happened before that there have been differences between this and later printings, but this is why I've always required the image link (which is built into cybereyes for free, thus not needing them in those)

DocTaotsu
THat's always been my understanding of the smartlink rules. Without an image link you really aren't using the smartlink system to it's full capacity.

And there's just so much cool shit you can do with a image link! Which you can do with contacts or goggles... but still! I'd love to have an image link IRL.
Cardul
Smartlink may require the imagelink, but, thanks to your comlink(you DO have a commlink, right?), you do not need to have the image link implanted. You can get it in contacts, goggles, your motorcycle helmet, whatever, and the smartlink routes to from the gun, to the smartlink, to the goggles/whathaveyou, thanks to the magic of your PAN. Of course, I recommend the cybersafety accessory that only allows the gun to fire from the smartlink, put some black IC in your Commlink to anything not subscribed to it trying to access it wirelessly, subscribe all your other bits to the commlink...
ornot
What about trodes or sim? If the simsense replaces/enhances parts of your sensorium, why do you need an imagelink stuck in front of your face?

Personally, I think it works well enough as is, and will continue to require imagelink for smartlinks to work. They're cheap enough as it is.
MaxHunter
my mistake. As the cyberware description is a link to the non-implant version on page 323 I overlooked the "requires image link" bit as a requirement for the cyberpart. It really does not matter because all the runners in my groups who have smartlink also have image links, they are so useful.

It is amazing how those little details keep coming up... You think you know the game and...

Cheers

Max
Divineshadow
QUOTE (ornot @ May 6 2008, 12:41 PM) *
What about trodes or sim? If the simsense replaces/enhances parts of your sensorium, why do you need an imagelink stuck in front of your face?


Actually I'm quite curious about this. Even if you need the image link, could you have it connect to your Simsense mod rather than goggles or glasses?

I mean, if simsense can be used for AR from your Comlink, wouldn't it make sense for it to be able to draw a cross hair and display gun info also? Seems to make sense, but can't find anything on the rulebook to support it.

What do you think guys?
paws2sky
This sort of came up in another thread. The comclusion seemed to be that there's a lot of redundancy between the various sense links (image, touch, sound), trodes/sim module, etc. etc.

I don't think you can get away from the basic smartgun + smartlink processor combo; they're made to work together. One provides telemetry and other data, while the other does the computations.

As robust as a commlink is in terms of processing power, it doesn't have the specialized software needed to handle the data a smartgun would normally feed to a smartlink. I suppose your GM might let you code a program to emulate a smartlink, but then you'd be running another program on your commlink...

I'd consider allowing someone to skip the image link if they were using Trodes and a Sim module

Personally, I always wanted an ARE Program that simulated a laser sight. Since its AR, it wouldn't be limited to 50m range (or whatever). I'm sure there's a Miracle Shooter "unlock" somewhere that does this.

-paws
Naptown Wendigo
Very possibly a noob question:

So on the subject of purchasing cyber upgrades for your character, if I'm looking at the prices listed for an image link in my eye to go with my smartgun, is the price for just one eye or both?
Stahlseele
in SR3,
Image Link for Both eyes was 0,20Essence and 1600 nuyen
Image Link for one eye was 0,15Essence and 1200 nuyen
so i guess it's for both eyes as SR4 does not mention single cyber-eye systems anywhere as far as i remember . .
and remember, complete cybereyes ALLWAYS come with BOTH ImageLink and Cam WITHOUT them costing extra or taking up essence/capacity either . .
Aaron
We've always gone with "you need a sensory link thingy or DNI." Seems to work for us.
Stahlseele
why?
Smart/Dumb-Link never needed DNI . . and it did not need any kind of display or image link either in SR3 . .
it came as a whole package including display-link, limited simsense rig, smartlink processor and induction pad . .
but if you allready HAD an display/image link and maybe a simsense rig and induction datajack you only needed the smartlink processor and it would connect to the other two things and make up the whole smartlink . . yeah, it's mix and match and mucho hassle . . . but every single 0,01 essence counts right? *g*
and aside from that, all those other things are totally legal and can be gotten without any kind of permit . . so you only need to find some doc that will hide the processor somewhere in there and nobody can tell that you actually do have a distributed smartlink system inthere O.o
Naptown Wendigo
Thanks, I appreciate the help.

I figured the price was for a pair but I wanted to be sure before I sprung my character on some unsuspecting GM.
Shiloh
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ May 13 2008, 11:12 PM) *
why?
Smart/Dumb-Link never needed DNI . . and it did not need any kind of display or image link either in SR3 . .
it came as a whole package including display-link, limited simsense rig, smartlink processor and induction pad . .
but if you allready HAD an display/image link and maybe a simsense rig and induction datajack you only needed the smartlink processor and it would connect to the other two things and make up the whole smartlink . . yeah, it's mix and match and mucho hassle . . . but every single 0,01 essence counts right? *g*
and aside from that, all those other things are totally legal and can be gotten without any kind of permit . . so you only need to find some doc that will hide the processor somewhere in there and nobody can tell that you actually do have a distributed smartlink system inthere O.o

Smartlink has always needed some way to display the crosshairs, whether that be on a cybereye or a set of goggles.

Be wary of wireless, though. Get a skinlink for every piece of electronics that you want to connect to your PAN, unless you want the opposition ejecting your clips...

If you want to use the *active* elements of the smart link (clip eject, firing without pulling the trigger, fire mode changes etc) you'll probably need an DNI, so a datajack or 'Trodes.
Stahlseele
QUOTE
Smartlink has always needed some way to display the crosshairs

no, came with everything needed, including a simple display-link to show the cross-hairs . . is why one could substitute a real display/image link and save some essence by not having to buy a whole package o.O
the only important part was the smart-link(2) processor, which would interface with your brain utilizing a built in DNI . . everything else could be swapped out. subdermal induction datajack for the induction pad, simrig for the limited sim-rig, image/display link for the part that let you see the crosshair *g*
Irian
Yes, but that was in 3rd Edition, where the smartgun was the 0.5 essence deal. Now it's only 0.1 essence and needs a display link.
Stahlseele
so the implant version does NOT come with that anymore? O.o
ok, seeing as how it's now eye-stuff and eyes come standard with image link more or less understandable . .
CircuitBoyBlue
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ May 13 2008, 05:05 PM) *
so i guess it's for both eyes as SR4 does not mention single cyber-eye systems anywhere as far as i remember . .

Augmentation
Stahlseele
which i just now brought home . . thank god for german shops selling american/english products . .
just so i can in future indeed try and base my statements on things actually in the book(s) and not on my own mind thinking:"this is right"
Pyritefoolsgold
I'm still a little disturbed and confused about the idea of getting, say, an image link as cyberware without getting the eyes. what is it, exactly, modification to the eyeballs themselves? small lenses implanted in front of them? some sort of node clamped on to the optic nerve or a modification to the visual portion of the brain?

I've never liked to let things like "where is your cyberware, exactly?" be abstracted away.
Stahlseele
probably just an implanted version of contact lense with image link built into it . . and probably skin-linked too . .
in SR3 before the lenses i allways thought of image link kinda like an internal version of the protective covers and some micro-lasers beaming the image onto them . .
or maybe it's just a fine clear see through plastic sheet with ruthenium-polymers on it so it can change it's colour to display things O.o
but i like the idea with the micro-lasers better, one would be able to see that from the outside and get the effect of some data filing before the eye of the person they are looking at ^^
manimal
Wow thanks a lot for all the help. I guess it seems kinda pointless to get the smartlink implanted with an image link if you can just get that all in the cybereyes. But I will take the advice of not thinking too much about it.
KCKitsune
QUOTE (Shiloh @ May 14 2008, 07:01 AM) *
Be wary of wireless, though. Get a skinlink for every piece of electronics that you want to connect to your PAN, unless you want the opposition ejecting your clips...

If you want to use the *active* elements of the smart link (clip eject, firing without pulling the trigger, fire mode changes etc) you'll probably need an DNI, so a datajack or 'Trodes.



What if you have an implanted Commlink? Would that be used instead of a datajack or 'Trodes?
kigmatzomat
Hmmm, good question. Normally you need a datajack or trodes to provide the direct neural interface but all cyber has DNI appropriate to the tech. I'd think the "cybercomm" chassis includes the same connection as a datajack. Of course, you've got to plug any chips or optical cables directly into your cybercomm.
KCKitsune
QUOTE (kigmatzomat @ May 20 2008, 04:56 PM) *
Hmmm, good question. Normally you need a datajack or trodes to provide the direct neural interface but all cyber has DNI appropriate to the tech. I'd think the "cybercomm" chassis includes the same connection as a datajack. Of course, you've got to plug any chips or optical cables directly into your cybercomm.


Unless you use Skinklinks to provide the connection
Shiloh
QUOTE (KCKitsune @ May 19 2008, 01:11 PM) *
What if you have an implanted Commlink? Would that be used instead of a datajack or 'Trodes?

Implanted stuff already has DNI. You could argue that the 'link has to have a Sim Module to produce meaningful DNI feed to you and interpret the DNI commands you send it, same as a 'link that you have skinlinked to your Trodes would need (i.e. the implantation removes the need for a skinlink module). Or you could say the sim signal is part of the installation kit.
KnightRunner
Here is a question. If a PC buy an Ares Predator and a set of glasses with a smartlink enchantment..... how do they use the smartlink to eject clips? I do not see where their is a neural interface to send a mental signal.
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (KnightRunner @ May 21 2008, 12:32 PM) *
Here is a question. If a PC buy an Ares Predator and a set of glasses with a smartlink enchantment..... how do they use the smartlink to eject clips? I do not see where their is a neural interface to send a mental signal.


I've always assumed that the smartlink enhancement for glasses contains a set of mini-trodes built into the temples of the earpieces to allow for DNI issued commands and for limited simsense playback to allow for some of the feedback that's been ascribed to smartlinks in the past, such as the ever popular "happiness is a warm gun".

For putting smartlink enhancement in a pair of contacts... I've always requried some other piece of gear to be included in the setup, such as a commlink connected through trodes/datajack, to be able to issue DNI commands.
CanRay
I've just said the mental command of Smartguns only applies to implanted forms. So far, noone in my group has objected.

In fact, few were even thinking heavily about them (Aside from the +2 Dice), until I pointed out it was based on a cross of the Targeting System from RoboCop and your typical First-Person Shooter. Then everyone was sold, mental commands or not.
Fortune
I rule that the capability is there, but some kind of DNI somewhere along the line (typically connected to the PAN) is needed to actually utilize it to its full effect.
CanRay
That's what I was refering to, sorry. So, if you're Datajack is hooked up to your CommLink (Or, adversely, directly to the gun itself), you're good.

But the people that aren't going to have it installed are likely to be the ones that don't have a datajack either. Trode Net works just as well, I guess.
ShadeRavnos
QUOTE (paws2sky @ May 13 2008, 10:20 AM) *
I'd consider allowing someone to skip the image link if they were using Trodes and a Sim module

Personally, I always wanted an ARE Program that simulated a laser sight. Since its AR, it wouldn't be limited to 50m range (or whatever). I'm sure there's a Miracle Shooter "unlock" somewhere that does this.

-paws


Just random question... How are you viewing AR with out a visual display?? Trodes and Sim Modules do nothing for visual unless you go full VR and maybe not even then. Are you using the commlinks holo projector? I'd think that to be akward in a fire fight...

-Shade
Cthulhudreams
It's been written directly by the trodes onto the part of your brain that processes optical input.
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (ShadeRavnos @ Jun 16 2008, 12:52 AM) *
Trodes and Sim Modules do nothing for visual unless you go full VR and maybe not even then.


Acording to the SR4 rulebook, this is entirely incorrect.

"The easiest and most common way to get your AR fix, though, is through simsense. You need a sim module for your commlink to interpret the signals and feed you the data via a cyberware simrig, worn simrig, trode net, or datajack." Shadowrun 4th Edition Core Rules, p.209.

In short, simsense can be piped into the brain without first blanking out the recipient's normal senses or cutting off voluntary motor control, allowing for AR overlay just as easily as putting on a pair of display glasses. Easier, in fact.
Arrgg
Out of curiosity what bonuses does a smartlink give you in game?
Stahlseele
in 3rd Ed, -2 to shooting stuff,
in 4th ed +2 to your dice pool for shooting stuff . .
while we're close to simsense . . there's something called a touch link that lets you manipulate and interact with AR Stuff as though it were real . . could one hack it and make it so you could hit other people with virtual hammers and they feel as if they were being hit with a REAL sledgehammer? O.o
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jun 16 2008, 06:09 PM) *
while we're close to simsense . . there's something called a touch link that lets you manipulate and interact with AR Stuff as though it were real . . could one hack it and make it so you could hit other people with virtual hammers and they feel as if they were being hit with a REAL sledgehammer?


While I'm sure there are limits to the dynamic range of the force that can be generated by force-feedback clothing, anyone who is experiencing their AR with the assitance of the Touch Link Implant, or via a sim-module that hasn't been configured to disable the tactile sense tracks, is certainly vulnerable to this kind of input should their AR be compromised. And it wouldn't even have to be a real recording of someone really getting hit by a sledgehammer, the sensations could just as easily be computer generated.

(While the lesser quality of computer generated simsense vs. real recorded sensations is an issue for the Entertainment Simsense Industry, the purpose here is not to entertain, but to put some poor slag in a world of hurt, and either method does that job just fine.)

Where things really get fun is when you consider the sense-link functionality built into the Taste Booster implant, and the gustatory sense tracks provided by a sim-module. Have you ever been Goatse'd, Tubgirl'ed or 2Girls1Cup'ed? (If you haven't, be GLAD.) Now imagine a world where the same sort of thing can happen, but you get to taste it as well as see it.
Dumori
By the looks of it you just need a smart link look in friends or foes in the BBB. No image links for any of them.
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (Dumori @ Jun 16 2008, 09:01 PM) *
By the looks of it you just need a smart link look in friends or foes in the BBB. No image links for any of them.


Actually, the Red Samurai Lieutenant is listed as having both an Image Link and Smart Link, and while the Red Samurai Detachment doesn't list image link specifically, it comes free with their cybereyes. As for the other three character types out of Friends and Foes that have the Smartlink implant, but no apparent corresponding Image Link, it may very well be a oversight. Wouldn't be the first time they had errors on a sample character.

One other possible loophole to consider: a character who has a commlink with a sim-module and a way to feed the simsense into their brain (trodes, datajack & cable, or direct implantation) gets the benefit of image link (as well as all the other senses) for free. The Tir Ghosts characters all have implant commlinks, and while simmodules aren't listed, at one point, there was a line in the book that sim-modules came free with implanted commlinks[*]. That leaves us with the Lone Star Lieutenant as the only character without an image link, cybereyes, or commlink listed along with their smartlink implant. However, given the fact that commlinks are supposed to be ubiquitous, it wouldn't surprise me if the policy were to not even list basic model commlinks and cheap accessories like image-linked glasses because it's assumed that every character is carrying at least that much.


[*: The developers have since said this is incorrect and that you have to get the implant sim module separately, but they've never actually flagged it in the errata, and depending on which printing of the hardcover you look at, it waffles back and forth. Odd numbered printings (1st, 3rd, and 5th) have the line, and even numbered printings (2nd & 4th) don't.]
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