Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: New Nanotech
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
JudgementLoaf
Hello all! Had a idea for a new piece of nanoware that was inspired by a bit of reading, so I decided to post it and wait for review. Looking forward to comments.

Muscle Stimulus (MS):

The muscle stimulus nanoware package was designed for bodybuilders, athletes and the corporate manager who wants to bulk up with a minimal amount of effort. Once injected, the specially tailored nanites seek out muscle tissue and insert themselves within the endomysium of most major muscle groups within the metahuman body. From there, each MS nanite inflicts a small amount of tissue damage to the surrounding muscle cells and then becomes dormant for a few hours, allowing the body time to repair itself. This cycle of continues for as long as the nanites remain within the body, allowing the user of muscle stimulus nanoware to gain the benefits of increased muscle mass even while doing a minimum amount of actual physical work.

Rating: 1-3

Type: Soft/Hard

Availability: 10

Cost: Rating x 5000 nuyen.gif

Effect: When raising a characters strength score, reduce the karma cost by 1 for each rating point.


Alrighty! Critique Away!


Mordinvan
A far better method of action for this idea would be having a modified set of antitoxin nanites which bind to the myostatin gene and/or the protein it encodes for, causing the body to naturally increase muscle mass. We can do it today with antibodies, so nanites which simply attach to and lyse the protein would not only sound better but work better, and feel better.
JudgementLoaf
Very neat idea. Perhaps instead of destroying the protein, the nanites could instead serve as growth factor reservoirs (collecting the proteins and dispensing them in a pre-programmed manner) allowing dynamic shaping of the body in unusual ways if desired. Could also be used to prevent "over-bulking" perhaps?

Also, perhaps two versions could be chosen. A genetic modification that alters the presentation of the gene itself and a nanotech option for those who want the option of a "quick fix" without altering their genotype.

I will play around with some numbers and post a genotype option sometime soon.....
Mordinvan
The function of the myostatin protein is to inhibit and limit muscle growth.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myostatin
It could be either a gene treatment to knock the gene which makes it out, or a nano treatment to hunt/kill all manufactured protein present in the body. The results would be stupidly strong people, and no way to detect it except for very careful DNA anylisis, or finding the nanites, and somehow decoding their program to know what they are doing. But they would look like simple antitoxin ones, which are fairly legal, worst cast they would look like single system nanite hunters which you can get permits for. They'd likely grant the same effects as level 3 or 4 muscle toner/augmentation, and be much cheaper. Ah how I love genetics.
WeaverMount
QUOTE (Mordinvan @ May 5 2008, 10:35 PM) *
They'd likely grant the same effects as level 3 or 4 muscle toner/augmentation, and be much cheaper. Ah how I love genetics.


Mordinvan, this is simply impossible. You are likely aware of CP Violation, developing the ware you outlined would be a CE Violation (Cost Essence Violation, obviously smile.gif). It can't be done in the SR universe.

Also it's not like we needed more evidence, but thanks for a shinning example of everything being exactly as win as the GM thinks it is. I forget exactly where this quote is from but someone somewhere said "The highest, and most subtle form of power gaming is playing the character the GM wishes they playing."


Seriously though, thanks for the info. It was fun to read.
Mordinvan
In all honesty if a character was born with it, they'd have stupid muscle mass at the start. If they got it later, then all build and str increases should be dirt cheap, as you will literally bulk up just sitting on the couch drinking beer.
JudgementLoaf
I remembered the protein you mentioned after you posted, and dug out the data from my biochem textbook. I haven't finished the genemod writeup yet, but as far as play balancing goes, I think reducing karma cost by a minor amount still seems like the way to go. After all, the goal of these things should be to help people build muscle mass (it was intended to be in the form of a commercial product after all).

In the form of science, I would think it would be possible to release the inhibitor protein in a localized manner once bound to a collector nanite, if combined with the short-ranged control of a nanohive anyway. So, we have a broad range anti-toxin nanite that simply binds the protein involved, and coordinates its release in a localized manner to suppress muscle growth as needed.

Or perhaps I am giving too much credit to the ability of nanites to give out localized packets of hormones/drugs/etc that are immediately used up.

Another option: use of a soft nanite that produces a active site inhibitor to block the normal inhibitor from binding. Thus, no inhibition by its standard path, myostatin is there, but nonfunctional, and when you reach the desired muscle mass ratio you can put the nanites into sleep mode and quit mucking about with your bodies natural equilibrium.
Mordinvan
You should just make a nanite which cuts the protein into 2 nonfunctional pieces. Simple enough, and there is really no need to stop muscle growth, as all individuals who have it seem to be healthy, but just eat more. +20% lifestyles.
Stahlseele
stupidly powerfull people, yes, but also stupidly bulky people too . . imagine giving a human troll-muscles . . he'd probably break under his own body-weight . .
also he'd look about square *g*
Mordinvan
No, they don't, their skeleton grows to compensate, as do all their tendons and ligaments. They at atleast twice as strong as usual, so around right around a +3 to strength(minimum). They have no health problems associated with being that strong either. One thing you should keep in mind is adult humans don't develop adult primate muscle densities because of this protein. When it is inactivated we do get those densisties. We are made to be that strong, but a mutant off switch keeps us from getting there. You could do this treatment using either nanties to break all manufatured copies of the protein, a chem gland which secrets antibodies to this protein, or a gene treatment to turn the gene which makes it off and on again in response to a chemical signal.
Stahlseele
just for safety-meaures i would probably use the nanites to only kill a certain ammount of this, so you can in fact get stronger, but only up to a certain point . . and have the nanites have a switch to kill NOTHING and to kill ALL of them . . so you can decide the grade of your muscles *g*
but make it more expansive . . grade x50k for example . . isn't nano supposed to be the shit and mucho expansive in SR4?
PBTHHHHT
QUOTE (Mordinvan @ May 7 2008, 11:48 AM) *
No, they don't, their skeleton grows to compensate, as do all their tendons and ligaments. They at atleast twice as strong as usual, so around right around a +3 to strength(minimum). They have no health problems associated with being that strong either. One thing you should keep in mind is adult humans don't develop adult primate muscle densities because of this protein. When it is inactivated we do get those densisties. We are made to be that strong, but a mutant off switch keeps us from getting there. You could do this treatment using either nanties to break all manufatured copies of the protein, a chem gland which secrets antibodies to this protein, or a gene treatment to turn the gene which makes it off and on again in response to a chemical signal.


Hmmm... wouldn't body increase also? Mainly because of the extra bulk from the muscles, tendons, ligaments, skeleton strength, all those may help contribute to a person taking damage a bit more than before.
Mordinvan
You don't get tons bigger, just more dense and toned. A few points of body might not be uncalled for however. Your mass would increase substantially however.
Stahlseele
would justify the 50k per level too
Mordinvan
If you say so. Killing all/most of the protien wouldn't be harder then killing some of it, and likely not much more expensive.
GrepZen
...and as muscle density increases you lose the ability to float in water. I haven't looked at 4th ED yet but there should be something in the rules which reduces the amount of time a character can tread water or increases the TN to stay afloat as a characters body is weighed down by cyber & muscle aug.
JudgementLoaf
Did a little more reading on the topic, and from what little I know about biochem combined with the data I dug up, it would appear that continual muscle gain would be very possible using this method. The body would compensate by gaining the appropriate amount of bone mass and tendon strength. The only major drawback I can see is the potential for overexertion and stress (aka sprains, ligament tears, ect) based injuries during the muscle (over) growth cycle.

However, the product needs to be marketable from a corp. Which means quick growth (possible) and a nanite/pharmaceutical upkeep. Or a very high price tag if its a genetech.
Larme
I don't see why anyone is whinging about this idea. It's just a safer version of anabolic steroids. Lets you get stronger, easier. What's the big deal? Strength is the great SR4 dump stat anyway, why not let people have it cheap, at least that way every game won't be a bunch of nancy boy elf sammies with the graceful slender limbs of a ballerina nyahnyah.gif
Mordinvan
QUOTE (GrepZen @ May 7 2008, 04:12 PM) *
...and as muscle density increases you lose the ability to float in water. I haven't looked at 4th ED yet but there should be something in the rules which reduces the amount of time a character can tread water or increases the TN to stay afloat as a characters body is weighed down by cyber & muscle aug.


Yes, yes you would. Better have oxyrush or cyber gills handy.
Mordinvan
QUOTE (JudgementLoaf @ May 7 2008, 07:17 PM) *
Did a little more reading on the topic, and from what little I know about biochem combined with the data I dug up, it would appear that continual muscle gain would be very possible using this method. The body would compensate by gaining the appropriate amount of bone mass and tendon strength. The only major drawback I can see is the potential for overexertion and stress (aka sprains, ligament tears, ect) based injuries during the muscle (over) growth cycle.

However, the product needs to be marketable from a corp. Which means quick growth (possible) and a nanite/pharmaceutical upkeep. Or a very high price tag if its a genetech.


Its the inactivation of a non vital gene. Said gene has no other known functions which need to be compensated for. It would be quite cheep with gene tech, and even cheaper with a properly programed nano cutter.
Mordinvan
QUOTE (Larme @ May 7 2008, 07:28 PM) *
I don't see why anyone is whinging about this idea. It's just a safer version of anabolic steroids. Lets you get stronger, easier. What's the big deal? Strength is the great SR4 dump stat anyway, why not let people have it cheap, at least that way every game won't be a bunch of nancy boy elf sammies with the graceful slender limbs of a ballerina nyahnyah.gif


It maybe a dump stat, but this would likely up strength and body. AND it would do it very cheaply, very safely and with NO effort on the part of individual (ie karma) It would take time. ie + 1 point ever few weeks to months. Its also undetectable after completion, as you could turn the myostatin gene back on or the nanites off.
Larme
QUOTE (GrepZen @ May 7 2008, 06:12 PM) *
...and as muscle density increases you lose the ability to float in water. I haven't looked at 4th ED yet but there should be something in the rules which reduces the amount of time a character can tread water or increases the TN to stay afloat as a characters body is weighed down by cyber & muscle aug.


>.< HELL NO! Are we going to start having rules for flatulence? It's a game, it's not worth adding in minute details like this to model the real world exactly. It's really really not. The book doesn't even provide weight for basic gear, and you want to try and calculate how heavy a person's cyberware is, and then model that effect on treading water??? You are insane sir.
Stahlseele
the rules for swimming in SR3 were only based on body, no idea about SR4 . .
and if you want, make this new gene/nano-ware the hook of a run and offer the runners that they get the first treatment for free in addition to their money if they want to . . if it was still in beta state(nho, not beta-ware-grade) one could make it the hook for a whole campaign if the runners chose to beta-test the newest gear awailable for the corp . . they could end up experienxing certain problems and need to run more to get the corp to upgrade them so their problems stop for example . . not as bad as a kink bomb, but kinda like that *g* or they could become hunted if somebody gets to know that they carry the stuff because other people wanna play with the new toy too . .
or if one of the runners cooked up that idea have him be extracted for a change O.o
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012