interesting article by a foreign reporter in Japan. So Japan doesn't have the RICO act, doof. too bad.

Makes me feel like I should have taken that international law class. ah well.

Wow, awesome article. Thanks for the link! Certainly puts a different spin on a Neo-Tokyo game...

Well, the problem with the Yaks getting all pissy over a journalist and going to the US to kill his family is that unlike in Japan, people in the US are more likely to be armed and to be willing and able to blast your head off if you come calling in the middle of the night. I don't think there's any jury in the US that would favor a dead Japanese mafia man over an American homeowner if it ever went to court, even in places such as New York State where juries are on the whole less likely to view self-defense shootings favorably.

Hell, man. Fill out your paperwork with the ATF and get a FN Minimi, AKA M249. 1,000 rounds per minute at close range = pwnt.

Seconded. The Yakuza are really good at yelling at you. They're really good at beating you up. And when push comes to shove, they're pretty okay at cutting on you with something sharp, though. But dollars to donuts any Yakuza man who think's he's hard would be grossly, casually outdone by basic gangs from the US. Because Yakuza guys who are from Japan haven't seen people get killed in front of them with casual abandon.

They're vicious, but they're not casual killers. American criminals generally are.

I just don't think they'd be too keen to go up against someone armed. Yakuza employees who grew up outside of Japan, that's different.

Why would you bother with an armed confrontation in his house or a casual killing? Wouldn't you just ambush him outside his home as he leaves for work with a silenced SMG? Even if you had a concealed weapon, you're not going to get to draw it.

Because tattooed suit-wearing, SMG armed Japaneses guys who don't speak English parked outside a house tend to attract attention in most neighborhoods?

Yup. I can entertain the idea that being armed can help stop a burglar. They are messing around with your stuff make some noise, you wake up, get your gun, find them with there hands full of lootz and plug them. But even modestly trained killer would just shoot you before you know what's what. Maybe in your bed, maybe between your door and car, ad nauseum. I really just see Americans being armed as extra incentive to make sure you hit them out of the blue and put them down. IED regularly kill well trained well equipped soldiers who know people are trying to kill them. Pretty sure it would work on a journalists family. Plus we know the Johnson doesn't care about collateral damage .

>Because tattooed suit-wearing, SMG armed
Easily covered

>Japaneses guys
Totally depends but most wont get more than a second looks. I'm generalizing from what I know of TX, and OK sticks

>who don't speak English
How would they know

>parked outside a house
Totally depends what it's like around the house. I bet though they have some place in there dog trot where they pass parked cars

Lots of people from japan speak english. I'd presume that would be a key criteria when selecting someone to go assassinate someone in the US. Other options include just shooting out his window and lobbing a frag grenade into his bedroom at 3am, which would kill you instantly before you got to draw your CCW.

The other thing to do is just wait around outside the metropolitan newspaper where he works and wait to see when he gets into work. Then you can tell roughly when he leaves home. Then you just rock up a bit before that, with your gun in the glovebox. Less time on the scene to be 'suspicious' Might take you a couple of goes to get right, but hey, life goes on.

Or yeah, an IED in his garage would work.

Or sniper the guy from a rooftop or a near by parked van. That worked for quite a while for the washington dudes.

Lots of ways to kill someone where a concealed weapon is going to do precisely SFA to your survival chances.

And lets be fair, there is a big difference between Mrs suburban housewife picking up a gun and killing someone, and some street gang member doing it.

There is also a world of difference between your average American gun-happy ganger and a professional yakuza hitman.

Dude, we're talking about a Japanese yakuza man who probably thinks he's hard but isn't due to Japan being a very safe and relatively non-violent place to live, not freaking Agent 47. You're seriously telling me that a Japanese national buying large amounts of explosives for an IED or trying to get his hands on frag grenades isn't going to raise some eyebrows? Timmy McVeigh was different because he was a white guy and basically would have had the benefit of social camoflauge.

Same thing with hiding somewhere and blasting the target when he walks by. Maybe you'll kill him, or maybe not, since in the US it's also possible for civilians to wear body armor. Either way, again as a Japanese national, it's going to be a lot harder to exfiltrate, especially when according to the article the FBI is already on the lookout for yakuza assassins around the family.

This is not even speaking of possible environmental obstacles. In Japan you've got a primarily urban environment. However, someone in the US might possibly live out in the Mojave desert, or in Appalacia, or something like that. I think a soft city person is going to have trouble hacking it out there and being adequately prepared for the environment, let alone getting in and out smoothly in more rural areas where being a Japanese national would be downright bizarre to the locals.

Last night, when I was falling asleep, I had a little fantasy of a yakuza guy in a suit thinking he's all tough being confronted in a ranch the middle of the Mojave by a homeowner wearing NIJ level 3 body armor with a helmet and face shield and wielding an ATF-approved machine gun. The homeowner blasts out the yakuza man's knees with sustained automatic fire, cauterizes the stumps with a branding iron, and throws him out naked in the desert at high noon to die painfully and slowly.

Don't underestimate the Yakuza, or Japanese hard men. They beat people up for a living. They might not be any better with guns than your average ganger, due to lack of practice opportunities, but they can and do trash martial arts students on a regular basis. At any event, the Mafia isn't going around shooting people on a regular basis, but that doesn't mean they've gone soft.

Second, you don't need large amounts of explosives to create an IED. A glass jug, snake bite kit, and gasoline; or a cigarette and a bag of potato chips will do the trick just as readily. Besides which, McVeigh boughs tons of fertilizer for Oklahoma City, not high explosives. That fertilizer is now restricted in excessive quantities, but you don't need nearly as much to blow up a house as McVeigh needed to take out a large office building.


Ever seen Romeo Must Die? You'd be surprised at how far a red t-shirt, baseball cap, and funny accent get you when you're carrying a sack of Asian food.

Well, this is the thing. If any one person really dearly and truly wants to kill a specific other person, in most cases person number 1 can eventually succeed if he keeps trying.

I do not, however, believe that it would make any sense to be *more* scared of an out-of-element yakuza guy than, say, the local street gang. The yakuza guy would really have to swim upstream as it were since he's out of element and has more barrier to overcome. The local street gang would in effect be more dangerous and more likely to succeed and more likely to have individual members "get away with it" once they decided to kill a specific local.

Do the Yakuza employ ninjas? That could really tip the balance in their favor. The ninja wouldn't need a passport either, he'd just hang onto the bottom of the jetliner for the whole trip and meditate or something, assuming he can't fly himself.

There's thousands of Japanese exchange students here right now; I'll bet that there's more than a few who are affiliated with the Yakuza. Some of those exchange students have assimilated into American culture so well, you'd hardly be able to tell the difference. I've personally met over a dozen Japanese nationals who had almost no discernable accent to my ear; and I study accents as a hobby as well as speaking limited Japanese!

It should also be mentioned that English is, IIRC, a required subject for every Japanese student. Just about every Japanese person under 60 speaks limited English, and quite a few older people do as well.

In other words, don't bet on them being "out of their element". Not to mention that like black people, whites tend to think all asians look alike. They're just as likely to "get away with it". Rather or not you should be "more scared" of one rather than the other is a personal thing; but don't think the Japanese hard men are going to have trouble simply because they're Japanese.

My plan: not piss off street gangs or the yakuza

A yakuza operatives needs eliminate someone in the US ... ok, he either a) contacts his US associates, ones who've been in the States for years cultivating contacts and relations with the US underworld, who arranges things such as hiring a hitman, or b) comes over himself with cash and hires a hitman from a list of hitmen the yaks have used over the years or recommended from their american associates. Problems with blending? Done. Equipment issues? The hitman better have the rep to back up for the money they paid for the assignment. Knowledge of the area? If they hire local talent, then that person should know enough at the very least.

Dude, my dad is Japanese. I was born in Japan. My prior post was not predicated on the assumption that the people being discussed couldn't speak English or anything silly like that.

My understanding is that ninja are wont to cling to the top of the plane while gripping a katana by the blade in their teeth.

As a former delivery driver for a national (US) pizza chain, I second this. I could go into the ghetto and the worse question I got was, "Would you like a hit or a tip?"

I think an Uzi would fit in a large pizza box too.

Cain, the Yaks not speaking English bit was from ktz not Wounded Ronin.

About the equipment issue there was that Virginia tech thingy. Also I can't speak for the rest of the country, but I personally took a Vietnamese exchange student to a gun show in Austin. He was dumb founded by what people were willing to sell him on the spot.

Also about the Yaks not being "hard" enough to blow up some guys house?

The journalist got though a whole article about Yaks, child porn, people trying to kill his family, and epidemic corruption without exaggeration or metaphor. I think we can take this at face value, and infer that Goto doesn't use fists and blades for his killing of people he wants to take out as an example.

And thus, Shadowrunners are born.


Sorry, I got your post and kzt's mixed up.

However, two points. Number one, how do you know that I'm not nisei as well? Number two, why did you say "out of element" multiple times, when you know full well how some Japanese people are near-totally assimilated into American culture? I don't think being "out of element" is going to be a big factor.


Gah, last Friday I pulled this stunt to get into a secured building to see a friend. Almost made it, too. I should have tried a pizza box instead.

Just as a question, how easy do most of you think it is to gate a silenced submachine gun? Or a frag grenade?
And let me ask the corrolary to one answer to that question: why don't more gang bangers use silenced SMGs or grenades?

Yeah, I admit it, I'm leading the jury. Because getting that shit isn't as easy as it is in Shadowrun. Not impossible, but not like getting a handgun - it takes work. And what's more, when you use weapons like that? The FBI and ATF will be all over your ass. In a hurry.

God help you if you used a grenade. Congrats, you're now a terrorist, with all the glory that entails.

My point is, the Yakuza aren't gonna pull that kind of shit on some journalist's family. It's totally not worth it, because they have a ton to lose when the lawhammer drops. The guy wrote harsh words about them, and they don't pull that kind of response unless you've seriously cut into their profits.

I totally agree with you about the grenade being a bit much. As for criminal Asians with silenced SMGs in the US? I know first hand that Triad grunts at Galileo High School in SF have them at least they did around 2002. I don't know enough about law enforcement and SMGs to speak with confidence, but my understanding is that many use very generic rounds that would be pretty hard to tell from an autoloading pistol.

I think you're misunderstanding what I'm talking about. I find it very likely that those guys had full-auto pistols, because it's not all that complex to mod something for.

You're talking about after-marked modded pistols that are capable of full-auto, such as someone who's modded their glock or walther. There's no way that anyone will mistake an actual SMG for a pistol, because an SMG is built from the ground up to be a law enforcement or military weapon with selective fire. What's more, I find it unlikely these gangers had silenced weapons, additonally, because of the inherent difficulties in getting an extended, threaded barrel.

Shadowrunners aren't born; they're statted out. And what, where you trying the uzi instead?



I don't know. I think you'd be surprised by the level of firepower among some street gangs. And for the most extreme example I've ever heard of, check out the History Channel episode of Gangland about the Outlaw motorcycle gang. According to that episode, the turf war they got into in Canada in the 90s involved not just grenades, but also anti-tank rockets and flamethrowers. Now that I think about it, Wounded Ronin, these guys probably mixed it up with the Mounties, too (sorry, that's another thread).

But I agree with you that finding these things probably isn't easy at all. I personally would barely be able to find anything through illegal means.

Actually that is a good point cops are often out gunned in RL. Most of my experience with the report of automatics is from my neighborhood on the 4th of July.

Seriously? I would have expected Oakland to have followed LA's lead a long time ago.
(Cops in LA are generally armed with their sidearms, 1 AR-15, 1 12 gauge Winchester or Benelli, and 2 MP5s in the trunk of their car.)

Be glad to be so ignorant still, unfortunatly it gets quite easy once you know who to go to. Your local gang might be a bad advise though

As one who was "volunteered" to assist in testing/checking security, Pizza Vendors Rule along with Tow Truck Drivers when fleets of them come out.

WMS

I think he's dead on target. I don't know anything about this myself, but he said "SMG" specifically. Gangs can apparently lay hands on some serious firepower when the need arises. I know that I've seen an assault rifle in the hands of a Hell's Angel, although I have no idea as to how common that is. As for silenced, I'll take your word on that, since I'm far from a gun expert.

But to bring things back on topic: there's nothing preventing a foreigner, let alone a non-white one, from laying hands on some serious firepower after they arrive. Heck, since security is handled at the departure end, there's no reason why a well-connected Yakuza member couldn't just carry it on him, or have the stuff shipped to him, bypassing Japanese security and therefore ours.

He specifically stated that the guns "could be mistaken for a regular autoloading pistol." No SMG will ever be mistaken for an autoloading pistol. They look nothing alike. Machine-modded handguns, on the other hand, might be. Both will fire full auto, but one (the SMG) is much more accurate and reliable, whereas the other (the machine-modded pistol) is far more concealable.

The problem with a foreigner getting ahold of firepower like that is basically that the foreigner will need someone relatively connected in the US to hook them up. You can ship guns to the US, but it involves a lot of background checking and a lot of annoyance and paperwork - and nobody on a tourist visa is gonna get hooked up like that without the ATF noticing - because customs does check what's in them packages. Besides, it's a lot easier to get guns locally than in Japan. You'd be better off trying to grab something from a Wal-Mart, but even there you'll need to fill out paperwork unless you get lucky and a gun nut employee likes the cut of your jib.

They could do it, but it would neccessarily take more work than for someone local, because they were from out of the country. If for no other reason than needing to jump one more step.

Here's another thought - why the hell would the Yakuza fly a guy in to do the job, anyway? They'd probably be able to get it done cheaper and with less fuss if they hired Americans to do it.

Does the phrase "Gun Show" have any meaning on this discussion, I go to several a year, some of the "dealers" at such could be termed lax in the requirements beyond the cash.

WMS

Oh yeah, ever sense 1990 when OPD had to litteraly take back some areas of town they have carried that keep that kind of firepower close at hand. I don't know exactly what various type of officers carry, but I've seen some heavy hardware. When a domestic disturbance call that goes from bad to newsworthy bad in 20 seconds on the 3rd floor of an apartment building, some pissed off guy can get there weapon readied before the cop thinks about getting to there trunk.

Cops are often out gunned situationally, not because they don't access. All I'm saying is that cops are facing people who can out gun a handgun.

That's plenty true, indeed.

Because then they would have to involve someone outside the organization and that is dangerous. I also doubt that someone as honor-bound and *ahem* ethnocentric as a Yakuza would be comfortable with having a gaijin do his work for him.

I'm really surprised that the reporter didn't just go the appeal to vanity route and offer the yakuza boss a degree of creative control in regards to the direction of the article.

I don;t think that drawing comparisons about potential equipment and skill between street gangs and yakuza operatives running a multi million (billion?) dollar money laundering ring and drug rings is in any way insightful or relevant.

You'd certainly hope that no street ganger is going to be able to buy an SMG. Of course, if I remember my TV news correctly they've managed to buy HMGs before in the US so nothing is sacred.

Conversely, Yakuza gangers can get weapons under the japanese gun control regime that is oppressive by US standards, so if anyone could buy an illegal firearm (and hell, I know hunters with illegal silencers in australia - if they can get it, people willing to pay 1000 times as much can get it. Go the sniper rifle route. Who cares).

Incidently, the japanese americans in this thread would be prime candiates for the job, if your dad was a former crime family member.

The reason why the street gang is less scary is that they actually live there, and if they gun down rich white people in their homes the cops will breath fire and sweat blood until the situation is resolved. This also disincentivises the gangers to do it in the first place.

While the Yakuza ganger doesn't live there and has none of the sme constraints on his behavior. In fact if you hadn't asked for police protection the cops are unlikely to work out it was him before he's left the country.

Finally, its probable that the guy live(s) in major cities because he's a journo, not a cattle rancher.

I assume that you are referring to the way in which both groups can pretty much tell you at least one gate code to every gated community in the city?

Even though I'm a big fan of Anime and Manga and wouldn't mind visiting Japan some day that article reminds me of how much Japan needs to change a few things with their society.

Outlaw Motorcycle Gangs are not street gangs. The Hell's Angel's, Pagans, Mongols, etc are composed of extremely serious guys, not impulsive punks. Having them want you dead isn't quite as bad as having Meyer Lansky want you dead, but it's a lot more dangerous than having a Shadowrun street gang want you dead.

Well no, I was referring to military base security, did not even consider that aspect.

WMS

Yeah, the hells angels and so forth tend to be running drug rings. Which means money.

This thread seems to have a lot of speculation about what yakuza could or couldn't do. But my take on it is much simpler:

1.) Yakuza are empowered by Japanese society due to their connections with business and government, and the Japanese government can't seem to break free of various types of corruption that undermine their economy even now, if you've been reading the latest Economist articles
2.) Japan is a very safe and luxurious place to live in terms of crime rate and creature comforts, and there aren't many opportunities to practice with firearms.

So what I'm saying is that when you've got a combination like that it's going to make people in an organization soft, even while they think they're hard because society is giving them a handjob all the time. Following this principle, I'd aruge that, say, a Somali militiaman is probably tougher than a yakuza because of harsher living conditions, more brutal conflict, and a lot more actual shooting.

If a yakuza were to leave Japan and operate in another country he'd just be a soft man who is capable of killing.

I think that people are attacking your analysis along two key issues:

A) You are underestimating the influence of money on proceedings. You can hire skilled outside contractors with sufficient money if that is required. If your own guys are not hard enough, hire some columbians who are definitely hard core.

B) While the organization as whole may be soft, it also does conduct drive by shootings (a shocking crime in japan!) regular beatings etc. So some members are hard, ruthless and good shots. The organisation is also.. organised enough to select an individual from the 'hard' component of the organisation, rather than just a person at random.

I missed something a little while back
>He specifically stated that the guns "could be mistaken for a regular autoloading pistol." No SMG will ever be mistaken for an autoloading pistol. They look nothing alike.

I wasn't talking about what the weapon looked like, I was talking about that kind of forensic evidence they leave behind. yes the accuracy of an SMG is greater than that of pistol. But is it so great that skill can't cause overlap? Couldn't a trained shooter get a tighter grouping with a pistol than a joe with an SMG?

I brought this up when someone said the hammer would come down if you used an SMG. My question was, more generally, how would the cops know it was time to call the ATF, FBI, and CIA for a terrorist stomp?

Cthuludreams already raised some good counterpoints, but I'm going to throw a few more in as well.

A Somali militaman is indeed probably a lot tougher than most organized crime figures, Yakuza included. That doesn't make them any less dangerous, ruthless, or powerful. A popular misconception is that several major crime organizations-- the Mafia, Hell's Angels, the Yakuza-- have let luxury go to their heads and have gone soft. Walk up to an individual member and tell them that, they'll be more than happy to show you the difference by beating nine kinds of snot out of you. Just because they live in luxury doesn't mean they won't kill you, your family, and anything in your general vicinity.

As far as Japan being safe, that's also because the culture there generally doesn't reward brutality. Guess who's the exception? Bingo: the Yakuza. They administer beatings and torture sessions on a regular basis. I'd have to check some statistics, but I believe that Japan has a higher organized crime rate than the US does. There's fewer random acts of street violence, but there's still plenty of the non-random kind. Additionally, Japan has a higher suspected rate of non-reported crimes than many other countries do. Fear of the Yakuza is generally blamed for many people not reporting crimes.

So, when it comes to what the Yakuza can/cannot do, it'd be seriously wrong to think of them as any "softer" than an equivalent American organized crime group.

Ya gotta love discussions where the main points are my nations criminals are badder/bigger etc than your nations criminals.

What is this Australian Genealogy discussion thread.

Organized Crime is able/capable of surviving/thriving/doing business almost anywhere in the world, yes in some locations certain aspects will be limited but the main core activities will still keep right on running.

In Shadowrun 4, best leave Organized Crime to the criminals not shadowrunning dilettantes.

WMS

The relative "badassness" of a Yak vs Whoever is kind of a silly debate to my mind.

Yakuza=A Fabulous Amount of Financial Wealth and Political Pull

Problem-Money=Just a matter of time chummer... just a matter of time.


I'd also point out that, for pure brutality, nothing beats stabbing someone 125 times. Not having access to guns just means they've had to become more... ingenutitive when it comes to killing and intimidation.

Well, civilians are also softest of all.

If I were the reporter, I'd just call Kremlin KOA and his bodyguard buddy to threaten the oyabun. I mean, hey, worked for them in HK.

Now then, I'm going to go re-read that thread and laugh like a madman.