i did check some erratas and FAQ's . . ok, maybe i skimmed through them but anyway <.<
so has it ever been really be resolved if cyber allows someone to actually surpass his racial modified limit?

because i know my way around SR3 better than 4 i will use 3rd for an example, but feel free to discuss other versions as well

let's say a human decides to actually get Muscle Replacement level 4 and then decides to buy his strrength and quickness to 6 .. is his final Score in Strength and Quickness 9 or 10? O.o
aside from the possibility of saving some karma from not having to buy up your stats, what reason would there be for those enhancements?

and i don't think that THAT is a particularly good reason either, because at least in SR3 your Skills cost karma based on your natural/biological(because bio-muscles count to natural) attribute rating . .
so someone with STR1 and 4 levels of Muscle Replacement would have an EFFECTIVE strength of 5, but he would pay way more karma for rising strength linked skills than he would if his strength had been upped to 5 with build-points or bio muscle aug and suprathoid gland . . so he does not have to up his strength for anything in game, but he will pay through the nose for throwing skills and all close combat skills aside from whips . .

or in numbers:

STR1(5)[Muscle Replacement(Cyber Muscle)]
Unarmed Combat
skill 1 <= Natural Limit costs 1 Build point
skill 2 >= Natural Limit costs 3 Build Points
skill 3 >= Natural Limit costs 5 Build Points
skill 4 >= Natural Limit costs 7 Build Points
skill 5 >= Natural Limit costs 9 Build Points
skill 6 >= Natural Limit costs 11 Build Points

STR 5[Muscle Augmentation(BioMuscle)]
Unarmed Combat
skill 1 <= Natural Limit costs 1 Build point
skill 2 <= Natural Limit costs 2 Build points
skill 3 <= Natural Limit costs 3 Build points
skill 4 <= Natural Limit costs 4 Build points
skill 5 <= Natural Limit costs 5 Build points
skill 6 >= Natural Limit costs 7 Build points

and the same as in example 2 would apply if he had gotten his 5 in STR by way of spending Build-Points for his STR Attribute
so one would save at least 4 build points if one were to do this in character build . . and the karma for raising skill later on in game would be pretty much a bigger difference if i remember this whole improving right . .
i'll let somebody else handle the math on that one . . i did not get enough improvement in my characters to have a firm grasp on that theme ^^#

shouldn't the same effect apply to both bio and cyber-muscle and the only difference should be in cost of nuyen/essence?

the only REAL reason i see for those cyber-muscles would be if one could reach the str9 by way of paying karma so a human would/could actually end up with 13 STR for example . .

someone mind discussing this for a byte? ^^

Short answer: in SR3, there are no limits. You can push your attributes as far as possible, you'll never cap out.

In SR4, there's a hard cap set in place. No matter what you do or what you try, you can never get any better.

There's a hard cap, but you can monkey with it with stuff like genetic optimization, Exceptional Attribute, and Aptitude. Adding 2 points to a natural maximum of 6 raises your augmented maximum to 12. And nobody has any business with an attribute higher than 12... Though of course metas can use the same techniques to indeed get beyond 12

"Thats why we need to kill'em all off now, before they take over the world!!"- Jacques Meehoff ,Humanis spokesman. as quoted in the trid broadcast "The Coming Storm"

Note that only those things that actually add to the Attribute itself fall under the cap. Those things that only add their bonus to part of an Attribute's function (eg. Bone Lacing and the like) do not count toward the cap. A human could have a Body of 9 (somehow) and still benefit from the laced bones.

so,SR3-wise the human with STR9(13) would be legit?
of course,if one ever were to try and rise STR with karma all the way up to 9 . .

SR3 was supposed to have the rule that you could not exceed the augmented max. However, the rulebook never said so. I think they mentioned it in an errata or FAQ, and the rule was "it's supposed to be the limit, but you can ignore that if you want a higher powered game." And in my experience, everyone did...

*shrugs*
most/bigger boni were not compatible with each other any way, and getting your attributes to that limit using karma is hella expansive . . something like new level x 4 or so i believe . . basically, it's only for people who don't know where to put their karma anymore i'd say . . and the attributes were not all that important in SR3 anyway *g*
i'd probably only go that route if all attributes are allready on their racial max . . so with a human natural attributes all on 6, then i might think about it . .
so rules wise it's the same as with boosted reflexes and synaptic accellerator stacking? it does not say no, so it works? *hides* ^^

If that isn't the overstatement of the century... They were absolutely primary to your character's success. Quickness controlled the cap for your shooting, affected your combat pool, determined the amount of armor you could wear, your running speed, and most importantly your reaction. Intelligence controlled your perception and affected your combat pool and your reaction... Willpower controlled how easily magic could work on you, and affected combat pool. And those are just the three most important, they were all pretty vital. I would submit that attributes actually mattered a whole lot more in SR3 because of how important pools were, and how reaction ruled everything, and how enough armor could make you practically unstoppable, etc.

In SR4, because one die is relatively small, the difference between a 3 and a 6 is actually not that big. It matters, but it's not like SR3 where having a 6 willpower vs. a 3 made you almost immune to magic vs. easy prey against magic. In SR4, a 3 vs. a 6 means boned against magic vs. still boned against magic. 3 agility vs. 6 agility is the difference between shooting ok and shooting a little more ok. SR4 attributes are more important because they're 1/2 of your total pool, but they matter less because no matter how big your pool is, each die only has a 1/3 chance of a hit.

technicaly that's still not the attribute which is important, only the things the attribute make easier to do *g*
quickness in no way was the cap to your shooting, quickness only made it cheaper to rise your shooty-skillz as did STR with Close combat in my example post . .
and you could still wear ungodly ammounts of armor, even without high quickness . . of course you would have more problems doing so than the elf but you could still do it!
and running speed somehow never really mattered much to me o.O
yeah, okay, intelligence is a little more direct approach usefull, i will give you that . . as is body every time you go ouchies . .
but tell me how many times did you roll your willpower as a samurai?
how many times did you actually roll your CHARISMA and not an social skill?
and i thought the point of SR4 attribute+skill pool was to make attributes more important? @.@

Not my groups. We never went past the karma-raised maximum of 6 +/- racial modifers, before adding in cyber/bioware.

something else just came to me . . does that mean if i have a human with a natural 5, suprathoid gland and 2 levels of muscle aug/tone i can NEVER EVER get more strength/quickness than the 8 the character will be starting with? O.o
well, aside from getting one more level of muscle stuffies . .
because the 8 is above his natural maximum but the 5 would have been 1 below his maximum, so he could in fact up that one to 6 and would end up with 9's in both strength and quickness . .
otherwise, no dice o.O
and if he was strength 3 and had gotten the gland and 4 levels strength and quickness? he'd be at str and quick of 8 and his unaugmented score would be at 3 . . but he'd have no way of ever rising it, because there is no more muscle stuff . . +5 on quick and str is the maximum one can achieve . .
so technically, STR/QUick of 4, then add in gland to get to 5 so you can raise it to later on, then take 3 levels of Muscle Replacement on Alpha so you end up with 5/8 in both quick and STR would be the optimum in character creation more or less?
when you raise it with karma leter on you end up with 6/9 in both of them which is the maximum for a simple human being . .

further thinking leads me to believe that muscle replacement is only feasable for humans, as dwarves, orks, elves and trolls have differing boni to quick and str . .
ok, one could argue with the elf with exceptional attribute in STR, but let's be realistic, who would ever do that? O.o
for the meta-races muscle augmentation and toner are superior, stats-wise, as it allows you to really go to the maximum without taking a big hit for something you are never ever gonna use . .
for example a dwarf with maxed str has a str of 8, so he can take a +4 to get to his maximum, but he does not get a + on quick, so the +4 quickness more or less would not do anything for him beyond the quick+3 because he tops out at quick 9 without exceptional quickness . . and whoever made a really exceptionally fast dwarf? o.O

maybe one could/should tinker with the idea of muscle replacement for str and quick individually . . one level for 66% of cost in essence and nuyen . .
so instead of 20k nuyen and 1 point of essence on standard, you'd pay 13k Nuyen and 0,6 Essence but you would not get +1 str AND quick but only +1 STR OR Quick per Level . .
and the sheer gets bigger with orks and trolls . .

No. The Adept's Improved Attribute actually adds to the Attribute itself, changing the actual number for advancement purposes. Cyber and bioware does not change the number for advancement purposes, but merely adds it's rating to the Attribute for all other purposes.

The character in your example would still be able to increase his Strength by one more level with Karma (at the normal cost for an increase of 5 to 6).

If instead, we had a character with a (natural) Strength of 5 and 2 levels of Adept Improved Strength Power (for a total of 7), then either of two things happen ...

... He cannot increase his Strength any more as Karma cannot be used to improve Attributes above the normal maximum

or

... He could increase his Strength (until his natural, non-augmented Attribute is 6), but the Karma cost would be calculated according to the adjusted total (going from 7 to 8 ).

thank you for your qualified answer ^^

I'm not really sure which of the two options is actually canon, so I figured I had better list both.

This sort of thing is why I always counted your base attributes & augmented attributes. Nothing you did changed your base attributes except karma spent to raise them.

This way, I didn't have to worry about whether or not a mod (bio, cyber, or magic) went against a cap or somesuch.

Made the bookkeeping (woot! 3x double letter word) much simpler.

yeah, we more or less do it that way too . . nobody ever takes improved attribute power, because other powers are so much more cooler and magic-loss can be geased in SR3 *g*
aside from that, we have only two players who play magical active types, one is a hermetic, one is a shaman . . sadly they are both our GM's so having them meet in game and watch the train-wreck is out of the question ^^