Ok I got group of 4 runners, 1 Sam, 1 Face, 1 Hacker, 1 is a jack of all trades type he fills in and supports all the others in their tasks, and is also the doc.

No one is interested in playing a mage, I was thinking of Running a support NPC as mage since i can't find another player in our area.

Has anyone ran groups with mage's and have any suggestions what i could try or do...

I was thinking of just limiting mage to Boss's etc against them to save grace.

My suggestion would be to never run an adventure where your players simply MUST have one type of skillset to accomplish a task. I usually try to build a back door or two into my adventures when the obvious solution isn't feasible. But if a mage is absolutely needed have the characters chip in and pay for one to accompany on the run as a temporary "sub-contractor". And only have the mage do what the characters tell him to.

I was thinking that, and I don't have a copy of street mage either so just the stuff from the BBB.

Most of players are not into the magic thing anyways so i guess it works unless needed, I was thinking of running the campaign with no magic, except for special cases.

Plus I could use mages as bosses sometimes since they would have no mage to back em up might prove interesting encounters.

I used to run first edition with no magic at all and no one had a problem with that. With SR, I always feel like you can take out one whole element and still have a great time running the shadows. Drop magic, hacking, rigging/drones...any of those at a time and you are still going to have some fun characters and runs.

I ran a game not long ago with a demolitions experts and a "combat face".
Surprise, surprise, fixers always called bout demolitions job.

What I'm saying is, it's not only good gameplay to taylor runs to the runners' abilities, it makes in-game sense too. Win-win

I agree, I mean i won't completely eliminate magic, I might make a Prime runner as mage to piss them off sometimes and or just stir things up.

But all of my players are new to SR, So i think it will run well with our play style. I use to do it to them in D&D no one played a mage, but when they fought one it was always something they remembered.

Very true, I mean our face and hacker are both Combat heavy as well mind you one has pistols the other has automatics, but they all can hold their own, and i was surprised that for once every member took basic stealth and social skills, They all "For once" took a basic group of skills that everyone has and they specialized in their own area's which really will makes the group run smooth in almost every mission, I throw at them.

Personally I'd keep magic in, but that doesn't mean that they have ot encounter it all the time. The rule is "Geek the mage first" because they're incredibly dangerous. If you take out mages from all except the "Big Bad Guy" characters, they won't have any experience fighting them, or respect them for what they are. Anyone with magic is extra dangerous. It shouldn't be reserved just for "boss" types just because the PCs don't have one. The NPCs/Opposition might not have an LMG either, but the PCs could still have one.

Remember that something like 1% of the popoluation is awakened, and even less than that are full mages. So keep sec mages to true secuirty corps and the Big AAAs as well as a few in the shadows and underworld syndicates. They should be rare, they should be respected, and they should be feared. And they should be shot first. 'Course that's just my opinion, but I like it ('cause it's mine :O ).

True enough, An i think i will move more in that direction. I love magic so I really don't want to get rid of it completely, But they all have the mind state of mages are too complicated and powerful etc. lol

Which I always reply with, Yes they are and maybe you should try one you might like it...

I have a special place in my heart for AI's and have a nice little mission set up, our hacker is going to have a nice surprise come next tuesday.

Way I see it, you have a couple options:


Limited Magic World

You can play up the idea that being Awakened and having any significant power is really rare and unusual. It certainly exists, but its not as common as the media (especially sims like Kombat Mage: TNG) might have you believe. There aren't many shadowrunner magicians, especially, because they can command big, big bucks working a legit job.

Give magicians significant "awe factor," even if they're piddly Magic 2 or 3 street mages, after all, those guys could still turn your brain into jell-o you piss them off. And even if they can't, having a smaller population of magicians means fewer people have interacted with magic, which means that Joe Pedestrian is more likely to believe the hype.

Amusingly, this might also lead to a sub-culture of Mage Posers. These cliques and gangs are just like your Elf and Ork posers, but they like to act like they can do magic. Maybe most of them can too, but Knacks and Astral Sight really don't make for a killer magician.

NPC magicians of any actual power (whether on the PCs side or not) should be specialized, maybe even Aspected. They can't do it all, but what they can do, they tend to be able to do reasonably well. Magicians in this world will want spells that require fewer hits and lower power to be effective (which leaves out most Combat and several Manipulation spells). Combat capable magicians might tend to have a higher Edge, so they can utilize "exploding dice" (AKA the rule of 6).

If you need to include a big league, well-rounded NPC magician, then give him or her motivations other than "beat or screw the PCs," because a magician like that would likely wipe the floor with a non-magical group. (Unless the PCs get the drop on him/her, of course.)


NPC Helper

Another option is to include a NPC magician to help the PCs through their encounters with enemy magicians. There are good and bad points to doing this.

On the up side, you get a dedicated NPC who can act as your mouthpiece, pointing out important plot points that the players might have missed, steering them away from red herrings and disastrous plans, and if need be, you can have them dramatically "take a bullet" for the team.

On the downside, the PCs may come to rely on the magician to do things for them, solve mysteries, and so on. It can be tricky to give the NPC a good selection of abilities without making them too useful or too gimpy. I'd probably suggest a Mystic Adept with a focus on Banishing and Counterspelling, Astral Perception and Assensing (and maybe Astral Combat), plus one other area of expertise like Gunslinging, Martial Arts, or Medicine. Give the NPC a couple utility spells, but limit their dice pool to the lower end of the "professional" range. Or instead of spells, give the NPC some minor summoning skills.


The Third Option

Personally, I'd file this idea under "not much fun," but I feel it ought to be included. Simply run the game with common magic, just as its presented in the canon. The players will need to be very savvy to to deal with enemy opposition, especially since they're sitting ducks for anything on the astral. Maybe they could invest heavily in manatech? This would work best if your players are thinkers and planners. If they prefer to go in guns blazing, they'll get pulped by the first decent security mage the run into.


Latent Awakening

I guess there's a fourth option. See if you can get one of the Higher Essence characters to buy Latent Awakening, then have them Awaken shortly (2-3 sessions) into the campaign. Maybe the Hacker is really an adept (hacking adepts are pretty awesome)? Better yet, maybe the jack-of-all-trades is a sleeping magician or (more likely) a mystic adept?

Heck... Take one of the players aside in private and offer to let them buy a "secret" positive quality. Tell them they can buy it at the 5, 10, or 15 BP level. Advise them that its worth the points, but they won't know what it is until it comes into play, which may take a couple sessions. I would definitely offer this to the jack-of-all-trades first. If the first player turns it down, offer it to each other player in turn (in private, of course). If they all turn it down... oh well.



-paws
PS for what its worth, I'd go with the first option if my table ended up being entirely mundane, but that's just me.

Another option might be to use magical opposition sparingly but come up with an alternate mechanic for counter spelling. A mage throwing around fireballs isn't inherently more dangerous than a sammy throwing grenades but if you lack counter spelling you're in trouble. Maybe allow the PCs to add their edge to spell defense without spending or burning it.

Mages will be a total bastard for the party to deal with. They'll never know if they're being shadowed by one on the astral, just ready to zorch them down with a Spirit that they'll have a *hard* time killing. They will need help to take down a sensible mage foe, so either drop magic, or provide the magical muscle in some other way.

I completely agree that a mage played to the fullest could devastate a team without magical support. Obviously the GM can't pull out every dirty mage trick in the book. Thats why I suggested using magical opposition sparingly.

But a low level mage here and there casting indirect combat spells in support of a grunt squad is manageable, and not all that different than heavy weapons support in terms of killing power. Plus there are all the non-offensive spells a NPC mage can use to give a grunt squad more staying power (physical barrier, increase reflexes, heal).

Personally I think its a lot easier to tone magic down than try to explain it away without totally altering the SR universe, buy YMMV.

Or perhaps be more subtle in the useage of magic. Mages and Shamans are RARE, and brave ones are even more so!

In all likelihood, I can see one that'd just summon up a few spirits to offer assistance to the group, and then kick back with a big bucket of the Colonel's SoyChicken.

Spirits aren't hard to kill if you have a weapon capable of hurting a vehicle. EG: Barrett with APDS ammo.

-8 AP with 2 shots per pass against a F6 Fire elemental means a dead elemental. On average a Force 6 elemental will soak (6+(12-=10 soak dice=10/3 hits=3.33 boxes of damage per shot so if you can hit with around 4 net hits per shot for two shots you could have it dead by a single shooter in one pass.

If they have no mage I'd only use Force 3 or maybe Force 4 to add variety to the game and to make it so they don't NEED a Barrett with APDS...

Or, you know, not even have a combat spirit. Having one provide concealment and suppression of sound in a mysterious mist, as a group of Go-Go-Go-Gangers come riding in, revealing them at the last moment, guns roaring and grenades flying would be a great assistance.

...

Damn, I hope someone catches it for the Trid!

Even Watcher Spirits providing communication that can't be hacked or intercepted is a major tactical bonus for even a low-level WizGang.

Thats why my GM rules spirits to be outright immune to non-magical firearms. Melee and unarmed attacks only. Killing non-corporial things with bullets is just ridiculous.

It has the nice side-effect of making them much more intimidating and exciting to deal with.

The spirit dose have to materialize... I think its a good balance.

*Fire Elemental Spirit Materializes in Elevator Full of Shadowrunners, Cooks Shadowrunners for Five Seconds at Eleventy-Billion Degrees, Spirit jumps back into Astral Plane*

I second those who said "keep the magic in", and frag your players only ocassionally. They will quickly learn to invest in some manatech countermeasures, hire someone to summon a spirit or two to cover their ass and /or pay for a magic hand when they really need it. And, of course, a fixer who knows his assets won't send them to steal from the IOND or anything like it. Play the cyber tone up and you will be fine.

Btw: I have a group of just THREE players with no hacker and no mage and we still have fun. [and the runners have learned to cover their ass outside their comfort zone with nuyen, contacts, strategic retreats, explosives and taking up a couple skills]

Cheers, and good running!

Max

Kinda relies on the Barrett being usable. If the Mage does his job properly, the sniper is the one sicced first. He's probably high up somewhere: kick him off. If the quarters are at all close, you won't be able to use a .50. You might not be able to use the Barrett because of concealment or other powers, or the Mage could add further protections. And if they're only using F5, they're doing something wrong. Yes, spirits *are* killable, but they can certainly ruin your day more often than not. As can things like sustained Invisibility spells and Stunball.

I don't see how you can play Shadowrun and "underplay" Mages if you keep them in. It's a dirty, unforgiving world and Awakened stuff is *hard* to fight without Awakened assets of your own. By all means, keep it rare, but I think you're shortchanging your players if you play the magical threats down. There are useful tools for the non-Awakened to try and level the playing field a bit, detailed in Arsenal, and your players will probably need to dig deep into them if you put anything more than the occasional Magic 2 Sorcery-aspected caster up against.

I think the key to mundanes dealing with magic in the Sixth World is adapt. All runners have to adapt to the security measures of the facilities they intend to break into. Magic is just one more hurdle, which may be difficult for the mundanes to overcome, but not impossible. Just using the BBB, there are a few different ways to dealing with mages. Invisible mage hurling spells? Ultrasound. Conjured spirits? Look for the guy giving orders and blow him up. Or just don't get caught. Mages are just as fallible to Con as the next guy. You just have to sell it a little harder.

BTW, take a look at the Shadowrun Novel featuring the Troll Bowmen to see how security handles a mage. A good read whichever way but it also shows some ways mundanes deal with the awakened. When all else fails, they hire a contractor.

First rule of Combat: Geek the Mage.

Second rule of Combat: Geek the big ork with the big gun.

Third rule of Combat: If you're a big ork with a big gun, get a Mage buddy.

If you really really want to mess with them have either the Johnson or just some kid on the street con them out of thier pay or get them to agree to something way out in left field. Have the NPC be the most totally broken (yet legal) character in the ShadowRun universe.

The Ultimate Elven Face Adept Pornomancer!! have your Normal non magical Face attempt to do any social rolls vs the Pornomancer.

Just some thoughts on a very worthy question:

Generally when people ask if they can have a successful team without archetype X I generally say, "Hey, you make your plans with what you have available to you, it'll be fine."
However, when X is: "any magical ability whatsoever" it does become a little bit worrying.

Latent Awakening is a good option, of course, that's not really dealing with the problem, is it? I mean, it's a worthy question which other people may have, even if Latent Awakening does solve this particular instance for your group.

GMPCs are....tricky. I'm less against them than many people, but I do feel that they're inherently bad, and it takes a good GM and a lot of work to bring them up from "inherently bad" to "okay." Plus, you've already got 4 people already, and I generally won't even consider a GMPC unless I have 3 or less. Still, it is an option. Just be aware that it takes a delicate hand to make and play a GMPC whom the players like and feel is useful, without being overpowered and resented, and doesn't eat up too much of your time as GM, but still has enough development to not be a fixture or piece of equipment, but not so much development that it's an annoying Mary Sue and makes the players feel less cool. Many people have had bad experiences, and they're avoided for very good reasons. Enough about that.

The no-magic world: Well that's just asking if you can make SR into a cyberpunk game by removing all magic. Sure you can, but it's not Shadowrun anymore, so it's not really answering the question of "Can I play Shadowrun without magic in the team?" It's kind of like Latent Awakening, it makes the "problem" go away, but it doesn't really deal with it.

The "low-magic" world: Bear in mind, no matter who's in your team, the standard security mage isn't going to be sporting Magic 6, Spellcasting 6 with a specialization, power foci, spellcasting foci, and bound spirits on call. The average security mage will have an average Magic of 3, a similar skill, probably specialized in something, maybe a focus, maybe a Force 3 or 4 spirit. Granted, that can still f*** your team up bad and he is most worthy of being shot first. Not to mention it's entirely reasonable for there to be no security mage present, but rather just a spirit or two and the actual mages are part of the "level 2" security response after the alarms go off, but that's going to depend very much on the level/scope of the game. Playing the team of ultimate mega-badasses really do need a mage. Playing the gutter-punk newbie runners really don't.
All that said, one of my favorite things about SR is not having to customize the opposition to the players. There are enough options available to the players that I can say "This is the opposition, find a way to deal with it." If it's unusually easy or difficult because of the team's makeup, that's just dandy.

Really, the problem is astral visibility. If they're a mundane team, wards and purely astral entities can't effect them. Mages and materialized spirits can be dealt with. It'll be difficult, but frankly that's just fine. Other teams have difficulty with Riggers, or intense combat, but the simple fact that every team is going to have an unusually easy or hard time with different types of opposition is a feature. The problem is going to be the stupid Force 1 watcher, or the astral mage, or spirit who sees them (because they don't even know it's there to hide from it) and follows them around and they have no way of detecting it. They absolutely must have some way to keep an eye on the astral, at least from time to time. But I believe there are cameras and such which can do that. They don't need constant astral perception, so much as they absolutely 100% need the ability to check in on the astral plane occasionally and say "Shit, there's something there, we need to consider that in our plan."

So in general, I feel that the team needs to find a way to keep an eye on the astral occasionally, but apart from that it'll work just fine. Magic will just be one of those things that this particular team has to be extra careful about.

pfft, "quick reply" my ass. That button lies. It doesn't stop me from rambling at all!

Every team doesn't *need* a mage, considering how rare mages are supposed to be in background materials. Surely not every team can get one.

It would actually make for an interesting game where magic is rare and only really scary NPCs have it. It would be kind of like the greys in that strategy game with aliens. They terrifyingly pwn you unless you get rid of them fast.

In a world with handheld Panther assault cannons and machineguns I think the use of a Sniper Rifle with smartgun link (not a scope) and maaaybe reduced barrel will allow it to be used as close as anything else.

I thought you couldn't harm or kill spirits with mundane weaponry? My interpretation of BBB and Street Magic was that because a spirit is, y'know, a spirit, it can only be sent back to the astral by banishment, a spell, a weapon focus object, or pure willpower (like yelling "Go away! Go away!"). How do you shoot or punch a critter made of fire? Am I completely wrong in my reading of the rules?

It's okay to say "yes and here's why...".

Well, punching a Spirit, or using some hand-held weapon, is just a focus of your Will upon the spirit.

Beating it with a gun is better than shooting it, as the bullets have no will, but that high-tech club does.

That's one of the reasons that melee weapons have had a major renascence, and you have soldiers carrying swords and combat axes and so on.

At least, that's what I recall...

That sounds familiar. Like you can't shoot a spirit but you can whip it with the butt of a pistol. But you have to really be into it so there's a Willpower roll. I think.

Yeah. And I suggest an asbestos suit if you try it on a Fire Elemental!

Which is why extra options for body armour is a must!

I for one am fine with spirits dying from bullets. They are darned good as is and making them immune to bullets altogether makes it so mages even further dominate the game.

Every Plant, Guidance, and Guardian spirit will defend against spells with Forcex2 so a Force 6 spirit negates 4 hits on an enemy spell on average. That makes them effectively immune to a Spellcasting 6, Magic 5 character without a specialization, Mentor Spirit modifier, or Focus. Even with a rating 2 power focus its usually gonna be a wash. Spirits are plenty butch as written without adding total immunity to ranged attacks.

Just ranged attacks with no Willpower behind them.

You also have thrown weapons and bows! Using Willpower instead of Strength.

Which is why it should always be tough to summon and control one. Just don't use them in a game if you don't have anyone on the team who can't handle them. Shooting a walking cloud of dust with a sniper rifle seems a little contrary to the established faux-science of Shadowrun. But different strokes for different folks.

I think spirits being susceptible to bullets is fair enough. They must manifest to interact with the mundane at all but then get hardened armour to resist mundane attacks. I'm pretty sure that you can beat on a spirit with a sword exactly as you could anyone else, but the spirit gets 2*force hardened armour to resist the damage, so unless you're hitting uber hard you won't make a dent.

Attacks of will, IIRC, don't require a weapon at all, but involve rolling will vs the spirit, and don't involve trying to penetrate the hardened armour.

Speaking of mundanes vs spirits: I was running an adventure the other day, and the team had arranged to meet a member of another team in a park. The contact turned up, and the teams mage assensed her finding she was awakened and flanked by two spirits. The face who was standing near his bike asks me "I have a Glowmoss stick, is it glowing?" I said it was, and the whole group (IC, they don't know anything much about mages) starts bricking it. The mage makes it worse by returning to his shoes and telling everyone there are spirits about. The face starts to talk to the approaching shaman, and the PC's mage decides to cast control thoughts on her. I totally fluff the resistance roll, so she's his. The spirits, which have been tasked with protecting her, immediately manifest, and we all roll initiative. The two street sams blast away at the spirits with handguns, but merely flatten bullets against the spirits' mystical hardened armour. The face leaps on his bike and burns rubber away, and the spirits attempt to attack the mage with fear and confusion, while they rush to cross the intervening distance.

Here it gets a bit dodgy, but the mage commands the shaman to dispell her spirits, which seems suspect, but the spell description states that he can control all her actions. I give her another chance to shake off his spell, and fluff it again so she dispells the two spirits, and they promptly restrain her and arrange a hostage exchange with her team, completing the run with no blood spilt and no more bullets fired.

Had the team had no mage it would have been a much more complicated fight, but them's the breaks.

Having a Magician in the group is a major advantage, no denying that. Magic is a BIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIG stick!

But so is Hacking. So is having Drones out the Wazoo. So is having a Vista-Battle-Bus. So is being able to move faster than greased lightning and bullseyeing devil rat's hoop's at a hundred metres with a holdout.

It's all in how you use what you have. And not always about high-tech.

OK, admittedly, Spirits are the Main Battle Tanks of the magical power, but if you can find their weakness...

I just had a thought. I still have a problem with the idea of shooting a spirit with mundane weapon like a gun. They don't have internal organs. Shoot a materialized water spirit with a rifle and the bullet will go "bloop!" as it enters the spirit then sinks down into its "legs" or whatever. Unless it was a magic rifle and I haven't seen any rules for those yet. But it would make sense to use a mundane weapon on a spirit that was counter to the spirit's nature wouldn't it? For example:

water spirit :: flame thrower
fire spirit :: flame retardant
air spirit :: some sort of splash grenade filled with a cryogenic fluid
plant spirit :: again a splash grenade filled with defoliant

But then there are guardian, guidance, man, task, and earth spirits. What force in nature is contrary to dirt and stone? Water and wind erode them but that takes a long time. Maybe some kind of extremely high pressure water gun that could cut through stone?

This is sounding more and more like Ghostbusters...

I suggest getting the Spirits of Man drunk. Just keep throwing beer at them, and they'll eventually like you.

Of course, that's the Canadian Solution to a lot of issues.

Honestly it works pretty well as written. As a GM just keep the magical threats light and your all mundane team won't be ripped by them. I would not be averse to slinging a few spirits their way, but I wouldn't send them on some metaplanar quest where tech and the matrix don't work.

Reduced barrel makes it no longer a sniper rifle. Its recoil mods would be the same as an HMG firing single rounds (since it's firing an HMG round). Its damage would be reduced because the barrel is shorter and doesn't allow the round to reach full velocity. The rules don't cope very well when you step outside their expectations... If cut-down sniper rifles are that useful in close combat, why do people use assault rifles? Let's face it, if you can kill a tough spirit in 1 pass with it, your standard mundane opponent is dead as a doornail, or so badly messed up after the first shot that you can take the second one at a new target. The answer is mostly because they don't want broken shoulders.



There aren't any magic rifles...

But yes, you're describing exactly why Spirits get Immunity to Normal Weapons. It isn't just the lead spanging off some armour plate analog, it's a mechanism to describe how hard it is to disrupt the spirit's physical cohesion with a Normal Weapon. Put enough KE into a living flame and you can disrupt its convection structure enough to make it discorporate involuntarily... But don't get too hung up on the metaphysics, cos it's not fully understood. I'd be very chary about allowing aimed shots for extra damage on such homogeneous things though.



If you attack the elemental sprit with a thing to which it has a weakness (allergy, I think, in game terminology), it *isn't* immune to normal weapons and just gets its Force (as modified in the stat block description) as normal armour.

I imagine people in RL don't use .50cal assault rifles because of
A) Weight
B) Overpenetration
C) Against the Geneva convention
D) .50cal machineguns mounted on vehicles do the job better
E) Cost
F) ...and because it kills, not wounds

The 5.56mm round favored by many armies is a glorified 22 magnum. It is longer than it is wide by a large degree and tumbles when it hits flesh sawing through the wound channel. It can certainly kill a man but can also tie up 3 people per casualty... 2 to carry the casualty and 1 person to treat the casualty.

Shadowrunners however have some other priorities unlike a RL soldier. They dont want to wound the target they want it dead, dead, dead. They aren't going to be doing road marches with them typically, they'll be in a city with a car. The game has no overpenetration rules so no fears of a little old lady getting geeked next to the apartment the team is raiding, shadowrunners dont care about the Geneva convention unless it contains tips on what to use. Lastly, a .50cal machinegun in SR terms doing 9P -4 on full auto would be overpowering. Since it would be overpowering the designers nerfed the heavy machinegun to make it less situation-breaking. This mitigates the use of it against moderately armored vehicles and other hardened targets.

Its a fantasy situation. Look at the series "The Sarah Connor Chronicles". They use handguns that just anger their enemy and every time they have access to some absurdly large weapon they use it as much as possible because their opponent is hard to hurt and firmly intent on killing them. If they could call a Fixer and reliably get .50cal ammo and a man portable .50cal rifle you can bet your patooty they would!

In RL when bulletproof spirits and armored gun drones are an everyday sight [in the high end security world anyways] then the 22 magnum may stop being the weapon of choice.
Would I want to carry a .50cal? Heck no! But then again I was an Infantryman and not a Shadowrunner and the comparisons just don't go very far.

Wasabi
Formerly of the 1/501 PIR (ABN)

I agree on all points except:



This principle can work just as well for Shadowruns. In many situations Bob the Mook would rather stop to help his buddy Sam the Mook than continue chasing the runners and get shot himself.

Who said anything about RL? People in *shadowrun* don't use .50cal assault rifles.


Which doesn't preclude some verisimilitude.


But it hasn't, when the "Real Life" of the Sixth World *does* include such targets. For a reason. That the RAW don't necessarily reflect those reasons and allow powergamers to destroy the verismilitude of the game environment is a failure of the rules or of GM oversight. This is not Rogue Trader.

Also bear in mind that runners generally don't want to kill random mooks. Knocking the guards out is generally just as effective and less likely to force corps into taking action against you. Two Lonestar cops unconcious, shit happens. Two Lonestar cops dead and someone has to pay.

.50cal assault rifles, as you say kill people. You often don't want that, so runners won't generally carry them. That said, in my mind runners in most core setting areas should rarely be using assualt rifles at all. They're incredibly obvious and run 'n' gun is rarely the most efficient plan.