Me and my "gang" used to play D&D before we found out about SR and now we're tottaly sold on the rulesystem!
But after playing SR for some time we want to go back to the fantasy world.. After playing SR the D&D rulesystem, IMO, sucks! So i got the idea to convert the SR rulesystem and make it playable in a fantasy world..

My biggest problem is this:
Shadowrun is in the future and therefore they can compensate the magic (wich can be really OP sometimes when you play it right) with cyberware, wich is not possible in a fantasy world..

So the advice I want is how to compensate the magic part in a fantasy campaign based on the SR rulesystem


Any suggestions for good skills or spells or anything else you have in mind is welcome, but that is not as important as the problem above, as I can just sit down and do it myself.

Might try the search function; this topic seems to pop up every month or so.

Here's a recent one I bookmarked: SR4 Fantasy. You might also look for Earthdawn conversions. There are a couple floating around in the community Projects section.

Moving on... I'm not sure I understand your question.

Are you looking for something to replace cyberware and bioware? If this is your aim, then also do search for Steampunk. If Steampunk isn't up your alley, maybe you could borrow from D&D and/or D20 Modern and include golemware (magical cybernetics) or necro-augmentation (necromantic bioware)?

Alternately, you can go the Earthdawn route and strongly encourage everyone to take Adept, Mystic Adept, or Magician. Assume that most people in the world, at the very least, have a Spirit or Spell Knack. Mundanes eould still be available to play, but advise the player they may be at a major disadvantage, regularly. (It'd be a lot like playing an unaugmented mundane in SR, really.)

-paws

What the OP is asking, I believe, is how can you adjust magic so it is not to powerful in a world without advanced technology to balance against it. Or alternatively, what can you give mundane character's in a fantasy setting so they can compete with the awakened.

This is something I myself have been debating for a while, and so far have not come up with a solution.

Spot on Musphelheim, This guy is part of my gaming group and he's not the only one that asked me to help them convert SR so that its usable in a fantasy setting, suggested the steampunk alternative however it wouldnt solve the more intricate implants (wired steampumps? dont think so..) Aswell as not suiting what they had in mind (Dont know about Paelsmaestaren) but the other guy wasnt to hot on the idea (separate campaign ideas i might add) I'd suggested the ED approach aswell but alternative solution is preferable as not everyone might want to play an adept. an important aspect is not only how to balance magic vs mundane, but also all the gear and skills that is lost with the hi-tech civilisation, Firearm... well flintlocks perhaps, Automotive mechanics? Hacking? Parachuting.. no way in hell, somehow this makes a huge void in the options available to mundanes, so low-tech alternatives, new approaches would be great. I would personally do it myself, but you know.. school's a b***

maybe rising the target number for all instances where magic and the mundane interact?
if the mage were slinging a spell at a mundane, make it a +3 target number, if he's slinging at other mage +0, if he's slinging at magical adept +1, if he's slinging at physical adept +2 for example? O.o
just say magic attracts magic and it's easier to hit the copper lightning rod than it is to hit the stone over there . .

Ah, I see.

What if you front loaded the cost of being a magician? Double the BP cost for magical qualities and magic points?

Another option might be to allow mundanes to learn some for of counterspelling and/or banishing.

Or you could provide for some sort of portable anti-magic item. Oriental Adventures had Jade which helped resist Taint, maybe something similar could be in order? Talismans blessed to resist magic... Give each Talisman a rating and have it provide bonus dice to resist magical effects, like the Magic Resistance quality.

Just throwing out some ideas...

-paws

Just make everyone play an adept, but don't make them an 'adept' per say. They might even be mundane and just made of awesome.

It works perfectly, excalibur can mechanically be a weapon focus, and king arthur's leadership can be represented as high charisma, influence, commanding voice and kinesthetics.

Otherwise you need to go victorian era steam punk as you mentioned, but be more creative with the descriptions. The victorians were really big on electricity, so throw some of that in. Move by wire is a implanted neurostatic generator that stimulates your muscles. For example.

...in other fantasy games there are a number of "built in "balancing" factors that are absent form the SR mechanics

Mages are, generally speaking, set up to be physically weaker than combat types (lower hit die or body points) and restricted in what armour they can wear (or outrightly prohibited from wearing armour at all) and weapons they can use. Not so in SR where a mage can pretty much wear the same armoured clothing anyone else can and if he wants be able to fire a gun as good as a Sammy can. SR Mages are also able to boost their attributes with increased Attribute spells and lock them on with Sustaining foci right out of the box.

Next, in pure fantasy settings, mundanes can usually acquire and use enchanted items. Magical devices, when they do appear in Shadowrun, are very rare and pretty much limited to one shot items (the old bullet barrier necklace that has a detect incoming bullets spell as a trigger), "Permanent" items like weapon foci (e.g. the magical sword) are only usable by the awakened. The immunity to Normal Weapons power (which spirits and many awakened critters - ie, "monsters" have) also becomes even more unbalanced since with firearms gone, the mundane swordsman has nothing really powerful enough at his disposal to overcome it (with the exception of the Troll Bow perhaps)

Another problematic area I see is the Astral. In SR, mundanes can't do squat about it, however every mage, even a total greenhorn, can easily use it to her advantage for such activities as spying and infiltration. To be able to do this in most fantasy games the character has to have "been around the block" quite a few times, have some high level spells and even maybe a difficult to obtain item (e.g. the old Enchanted Crystal Ball). And then there's spirits. A starting Mage in the SR mechanic has a very potent weapon here against mundanes. In fantasy games one has to be fairly experienced to conjure up an entity as powerful as a force 4 - 5 spirit. coupled with the spirit's immunity power (as mentioned above), mundane fighters wouldn't stand a chance.

Another balance mechanic of most fantasy games is the saving or spell defence roll/test against magic which usually gives at least a 50-50 chance to shake off or significantly reduce a spell's effect. In the SR system a Mundane only gets her WP or Body (depending on the type of spell spell) to offset the spell's DV. Given an average WP of 3 that means only 1 hit against an average DV of 8 (Force 5 with 3 hits on a DP of 10) Basically 70% of the character's damage track is gone which would equate to a spell cast by a high level mage in most fantasy games.

Finally, the SR mechanic is a"level-less" system and many fantasy games use character and NPC threat levels as another means of balancing things out. As the character/NPC levels up, her skills improve, she gets more hits/body/health, more points to improve skills and her resistance to magic usually improves. Likewise for the mage, the power he can channel increases as his character level does. He starts off small with minimal damaging spells and has to work his way up to being able to fry a foe or call in a powerful planar entity. Again in SR, this can be done pretty much out of the box.

Depending on the system, character level may also come into play in determining if some spells will even have an effect. In SR this mechanic was thrown out when the variable TN was abandoned as Attributes (usually) used to determine a spell's TN.

Also many fantasy games have a higher high cap (or even none) on attributes and skills.

I find this a rather daunting task as I am still wrestling with balancing magic in in the normal SR setting. I wish you all the luck in your efforts and am curious to see what you come up with.

Personally I have been thinking of moving in the opposite direction and adapting the SR3 rules to a futuristic interstellar setting (sans magic or the Sci-Fi version of it, Psionics).

The problem with this is, it discourages players from playing an awakened character, and those that do are heavily specialized to be of any actual value, while it does not affect the actual base power level of magic.


Although it may be viable for some games, it is to specific, and would not work effectively in a low-magic fantasy setting. Also, although it may be fine with others, I personally hate the idea of requiring props for something. I am fine with equipment enhancing your abilities, but what you are suggesting here cuts to close to being required to use (or resist) those abilities.


Possible temporary solution, but it removes the value of playing an Adept in a average or low magic setting.

@ Kyoto Kid
Some of what you listed are reasons why we want to use the Shadowrun system for a fantasy game, and others are reason's why we have not yet made a functional "conversion" of the game mechanics.

We (or at least I) want to remove the class-and-level based advancement system, spells per day system, and huge variability of rolling a d20. While the Shadowrun mechanics function just fine if you remove Magic to play a pure Sci-Fi game (I have done so on a few occasions), the reverse is not true. Magic would then become far more powerful than mundane. This is the major issue we need to find a fix for. If you have any suggestions, let me know.


As for everyone else, if you happen to get a working solution, please let me know. If I come up with one, I will post here (assuming I remember).

Thanks everybody for your advice! Now I have something to work with for quite a while!

Please feel free to post more suggestions though! Everything is welcome!

If I come up with a suitable solution I will post it here, but I have a feeling that it'll take a while..

If its a low magic setting... then what's the problem with having mages that specialize? Maybe we have a different definition of low magic, but when I hear that term, I don't think of D&D sorcerers and magicians.

Anyway... another idea:

Modify the Magic Resistance quality to provide +2 or +3 dice per level to resist spells.

What about magic items that drain essence?

Bracelet of Reflexes
Essence cost: 2
Powers: Adds +1 Initiative and +1 IP

Mundanes don't have to worry about essence, and if they give up the magic item let them get it back slowly... say .1 essence/month.

Mages and Adepts would tend to avoid those kinds of magic items, but you could have the same power foci, weapon foci, type of items for them.


Sword of Piercing
Essence Cost: 1
Powers: Adds -3 AP for purposes of puncturing Immunity to Normal Weapons

etc?

This makes the most sense to me, overall. Your DnD fighters could think of the adept powers as feats. It does, however, make phys ads unheard of unless you wanted to take the time to group powers or something.

I would also consider the following: Seriously tweak the foci system so that they can be used as magic items a DnD group would be more familiar with. Up the bonding cost on Sustaining foci so that it has a permanent force X armor spell on it, then make the whole focus be a suit of armor and you've got +X Full Plate. I would also consider using unspent Edge as a sort of Counterspell defense pool or something and possibly increase drain by 1 across the board.

Personally I would seriously reconsider making everyone an Adept/Mystic Adept/Magician. I really think it's the easiest way. Just say that magic is everywhere and everyone is at least a little bit magical. It works fine in ED and you can look in those books for ideas.

If you are absolutely deadset against that here are a few thoughts:

Change Spell Resistance. How it's up to you but in SR4 magicians get to add two dice pools (Attribute+Skill) to "attack" with a spell but the defender only gets one to resist (usually Wil or Bod). If Mundanes are to have some sort of fighting chance this has to change. Give everyone and their pet dog Counterspelling. Add Essence to spell Resistance (it's totally useless without cyber, might as well give it some use), whatever.

Give mundanes some form of "Initiation." We all have heard the usual stuff about magicians having unlimited advancement whereas mundies can start "frontloaded." Just go search for any of the many threads on Adepts VS Sammies to read all about it. In this setting magicians can still advance ad eternum but mundies can't even start frontloaded since there's no cyber anymore. You will have to come up with something to make mundanes more appealing or everyone playing one will get bored soon.

Possibly cut back on magician's power. Not only the thing about attacking with one dice pool/defending with just one but also the stuff about Astral Projection, etc that others have mentioned. It isn't so big an issue in SR4 because mundanes can also do lots of neat stuff like hack, rig drones, etc. But if all your mundane archer can do is shoot his bow but the magician can shoot just as well, if not better (using Enhance Aim, Increase Attribute, etc) and can also see through walls, scout better than the thief and call on nearly unkillable spirits, well, the archer is gonna get bored real quick. Consider making Astral Perception/Projection Metamagic abilities. Or forcing all magicians to be aspected so they ca neither cast spells or conjure spirits but not both.



More when I think of it.

Now THAT's Exactly what I hate about D&D, everyone is so loaded with magical items that they look like christmas trees on the "astral", and without the gizmos.. the character is worthless, they never become heroes.. merely people in superhero costumes.
The mojo should never come from the gizmos, the mojo comes from the man (or woman) the gizmos are just for added style

Could always wait until DnD 4th arrives (End of June), and then tweak those rules. From what I've been reading there are going to be alot of tweaks to DnD; half the skill list is being taken out, and Magic Items are taking a major downgrade, and levels are being divided into 3 distinct power levels.

...there is one non-level based fantasy game I have played: Hero system's Fantasy Hero.

While the mechanics are different than SR, the concept does work and rather well I may add. Creation of enchanted items is a lot simpler than the SR mechanic in that you simply apply powers to some kind of an obvious or inobvious focus. There is no anchoring and no astral thread to the artificer. mundanes could possess and use the advantages a magical item granted provided there was no power limitation prohibiting them from doing so.

Again, mundanes had a better chance at defending against spells due to the game mechanics. In order to bypass armour a spell had to be bought with the power advantage No Normal Armour which requires one condition against which the spell will not work (e.g. Force Field).

In many ways I found this to be an ideal system and it has a few similarities to SR.

...No arbitrary levels
...No save rolls - you basically resisted attacks and effects with skills and attributes
...Players build their characters rather than rely on randomly rolled attributes.
...Characters are awarded Power Points instead of Experience that can be directly applied to improving skills, attributes, or items.
...The game is D6 based though all tests are rolled on 3d6 with damage & other effects based on the number of base power points (before limitations and advantages) in the attribute/power (usually 1d6 per 5 PP invested).
...There are no arbitrary set limits as to how many times a character can cast a spell or use a power (stun is used as drain and of course can be recovered during the adventure)

Just about everything in the game is power point based, for example a sword is a HTH killing attack with an obvious accessible focus limitation and reach advantage. It can get a bit crunchy, but as I recall they do have a lot of the common items already stated up and ready to go.

While they do have character classes, this is usually based around various "Package Deals" that are available. There is no reason why a character cannot be both a good swordsman and spell slinger.

...you might want to give this a "look see" for ideas.

Funny you should mention this because some friends of mine and I use to play the Sci-Fi RPG Traveller (classic version from the 70's and 80's), and I have recently been reading the rules for the new version that Mongoose Publishing just released for Traveller. I like the rule system Mongoose is using, but Traveller for some strange reason has always been lacking in equipment, technology (and how the tech works), and Psionics; and I was sad to see that Mongoose did not take the chance to expand upon this (though they maybe waiting to add a lot with supplements).

I have considered taking the Shadowrun v4 rules and applying them to Traveller with little to no modifications because it seems like the Shadowrun rule system would fit well, especially the skills, combat, matrix, and magic (as Psionics). The only problem I see so far would be how to handle starship combat and zero-g combat. I don't think there would be much difference in zero-g combat, but starship combat would be different. I guess with starship combat I could keep the rule set from Mongoose's Traveller system.

RE: Fighting spirits/Spell resistance
our group is enstating a house rule that Attacks of Will are a Will + (melee combat) roll instead of Will + Banishing. we're also disscussing the possibility of limiting Direct Combat spells so thier damage is fixed. net hits on the spellcasting roll only enhance the damage value when the spellcaster critically succedes, the defender glitches, or edge is spent on the spellcast test.

Thanks for the tip! I'll check it out ASAP!

...I used to play the classic Traveller too & still have most of the books & supplements. The only part I thought was weird was the random roll for skills. However, I did like the character advancement table, If you rolled good you could accrue some nice mustering out benes (like merchants getting their own ship). I also actually liked the fact that Psionics was shrouded in "mystery" and speculation as all to often in other SF games it seemed like just another label for "magic".

I personally find the 3rd ed rules better suit the campaign (set in the universe of an aborted graphic novel I worked on years ago) I have that centers around a special class of pilots which are similar in concept to riggers of the older editions. I've already stated out a number of items including weapons, fully autonomous driods, armour/space suits vehicles and other specialised gear and and really don't want to do that all over again. For ships and ship to ship combat, I am using Gurps Space which outlines different propulsion systems from chemical to jump/warp/gate as well as weapon technologies. I like the idea of having different variants of drive systems and weapons (sorry, no Infinite Improbability drive though, don't want the universe cluttered with sperm whales and petunias now).

Most of the cyber, bio, and genetech translates nicely and using the build point system, different species are easy to develop. Some will have distinct advantages over other just as the metatypes in Shadowrun already do. While I am not embracing the overt or gaudy "Force" type powers, there is a type of adept as well as an empathic/sense based trait that is much more subtle.