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Sweaty Hippo
Alright, here is my story:

Bought SR 4th Ed from my local book store and love it. I have been reading it, and as usual, I have questions about the setting. I came here to ask more experienced folks in the hopes of getting answers.

1.) On page 83, it mentions anti-tech communes (Luddite collectives and NAN pinkskins). I tried to find these two groups elsewhere in the book, but to no avail. Who are these groups?

2.) Did the corporate entities (Big Ten) replace the government bodies of the world in everything but name only, or are there countries out there that are different/unaffected?

3.) What does the term "Sixth World" mean?

4.) In America, does freedom of speech still exist? Can you badmouth Aztechnology and Renraku and not suffer consequences?

5.) What areas of the SR world are well fleshed out enough to get good information on other than North America?

6.) I am planning on starting a game with my group, and I presented the ideas to them. The only problem is of Essence. The notion of trading out life energy permanently for SIMS and datajacks turns most of them off cyberware? Judging by how omnipresent cyberware is, can "cyberless" people still meaningfully interact with society?

I appreciate any help you folks can bring me? Thanks!
IQ Zero
QUOTE (Sweaty Hippo @ May 18 2008, 11:44 AM) *
1.) On page 83, it mentions anti-tech communes (Luddite collectives and NAN pinkskins). I tried to find these two groups elsewhere in the book, but to no avail. Who are these groups?
Luddites are an old group of back to basic type peoples. You can find them on Wikipedia.

QUOTE (Sweaty Hippo @ May 18 2008, 11:44 AM) *
2.) Did the corporate entities (Big Ten) replace the government bodies of the world in everything but name only, or are there countries out there that are different/unaffected?
The Big Ten are the biggest megacorps around, they are extraterritorial in nature. There are still many countries out there though all have been affected by the corps.

QUOTE (Sweaty Hippo @ May 18 2008, 11:44 AM) *
3.) What does the term "Sixth World" mean?
Each "world" is a rise and fall of magic, thus we are in the 5th world, and when magic returns, it becomes the 6th world, the terms were based on Mayan/Aztech myths.

QUOTE (Sweaty Hippo @ May 18 2008, 11:44 AM) *
4.) In America, does freedom of speech still exist? Can you badmouth Aztechnology and Renraku and not suffer consequences?
Sure you can, of course, that depends, I'm sure a lot of the chummers out there bad mouth the corps, but I'll lay you good odds that they are doing so from the barrens.

QUOTE (Sweaty Hippo @ May 18 2008, 11:44 AM) *
5.) What areas of the SR world are well fleshed out enough to get good information on other than North America?
There are many sourcebooks available. Shadows of Asia and Shadows of Europe come to mind.

QUOTE (Sweaty Hippo @ May 18 2008, 11:44 AM) *
6.) I am planning on starting a game with my group, and I presented the ideas to them. The only problem is of Essence. The notion of trading out life energy permanently for SIMS and datajacks turns most of them off cyberware? Judging by how omnipresent cyberware is, can "cyberless" people still meaningfully interact with society?
Yes, you can get a trode set instead of a 'jack.
Emperor Tippy
QUOTE (Sweaty Hippo @ May 17 2008, 11:44 PM) *
Alright, here is my story:

Bought SR 4th Ed from my local book store and love it. I have been reading it, and as usual, I have questions about the setting. I came here to ask more experienced folks in the hopes of getting answers.

1.) On page 83, it mentions anti-tech communes (Luddite collectives and NAN pinkskins). I tried to find these two groups elsewhere in the book, but to no avail. Who are these groups?

Mostly irrelevant people? Really, being anti-tech means that they have at most a minor impact on most games. Maybe some of the 3e books like Threats and Threats 2 have them.

QUOTE
2.) Did the corporate entities (Big Ten) replace the government bodies of the world in everything but name only, or are there countries out there that are different/unaffected?

Mostly. Countries continue to exist because the Big Ten want them around/don't want to go through the hassle of chucking them. No nation is really unaffected (some are affected less than others though).

QUOTE
3.) What does the term "Sixth World" mean?

The world goes in cycles. The 4th world was the last time dragons were up and about, the 5th world ended when they came back. Thats the simple version but the dragons are a symptom not the cause.

The 6th world is the world post awakening (2020 on or so iirc).

QUOTE
4.) In America, does freedom of speech still exist? Can you badmouth Aztechnology and Renraku and not suffer consequences?

Sure, the government won't stop you from badmouthing an AAA. But the AAA's own the media so its unlikely that your bad mouthing would become known to most of the world. And if you are becoming a problem the company that is having the problem highers some runners to put a bullet through your brain pan.

QUOTE
5.) What areas of the SR world are well fleshed out enough to get good information on other than North America?

Japan and Honkong are the big ones. I believe that a Shadows of Latin America is coming out sometime soonish. 3e had Shadows of Asia and a bunch of other setting books.

QUOTE
6.) I am planning on starting a game with my group, and I presented the ideas to them. The only problem is of Essence. The notion of trading out life energy permanently for SIMS and datajacks turns most of them off cyberware? Judging by how omnipresent cyberware is, can "cyberless" people still meaningfully interact with society?

Yes and no. Unless you want to play all magic then you really do need cyber/bioware. An all awakened game could be fun.
Sweaty Hippo
Thanks for all your answers!

Three more questions:

1.) What is the "Sprawl?" I could not find a page on it in the Sixth World wiki nor the rulebook's index. From what I could guess, it sounds like the name for a section of a city.

2.) Speaking of the criminal underworld, it gives a list of real-world gangs and syndicates that survived to 2070, but what of the other big players from our time, and their position in North America? Ex: are the Bloods, Crips, and Aryan Brotherhood still around, or did they get defeated/assimilated into other gangs?

3.) I plan on setting a game in Los Angeles, as many of my RPG games set in the modern/future "real world" end up in Los Angeles. Other than what is in the SR 4 book, are there any other things important that I should know about the city?

P.S. I looked at the Wiki entry, and it said two books that have information on Los Angeles (California Free State and Shadows of North America). However, I don't want to wait to get the books to start my game. spin.gif
Emperor Tippy
QUOTE (Sweaty Hippo @ May 18 2008, 12:13 AM) *
Thanks for all your answers!

Three more questions:

1.) What is the "Sprawl?" I could not find a page on it in the Sixth World wiki nor the rulebook's index. From what I could guess, it sounds like the name for a section of a city.

The sprawl is the whole city plus its suburbs in most cases.

QUOTE
2.) Speaking of the criminal underworld, it gives a list of real-world gangs and syndicates that survived to 2070, but what of the other big players from our time? Ex: are the Bloods, Crips, and Aryan Brotherhood still around, or did they get defeated/assimilated into other gangs?

You could have them around if you wanted but I don't believe they are ever mentioned in any SR product that I am aware of.

QUOTE
3.) I plan on setting a game in Los Angeles, as many of my RPG games set in the modern/future "real world" end up in Los Angeles. Other than what is in the SR 4 book, are there any other things important that I should know about the city?

Half of the book Corporate Enclaves is all about LA. It's a 4e book, you may want to at least take a look at it at the book store.
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (Sweaty Hippo @ May 17 2008, 11:44 PM) *
1.) On page 83, it mentions anti-tech communes (Luddite collectives and NAN pinkskins). I tried to find these two groups elsewhere in the book, but to no avail. Who are these groups?


Since IQ Zero already answered about Luddites, I'll take the other half of this one. NAN pinkskins were former US citizens with little to no Native American heritage who were allowed to become citizens of the Native American Nations after the treaty because they pledged a commitment to the "Indian way of life." Many of them go to extreme measures in their pursuit of an eco-friendly lifestyle however, taking the idea of "living with the land" even further than their Native American neighbors. Take the most extremist tree-hugging, off-the-grid-living, ex-hippie that you know today, crank up to eleven, and dress them in deer pelts.
Sweaty Hippo
QUOTE (Emperor Tippy @ May 18 2008, 12:17 AM) *
The sprawl is the whole city plus its suburbs in most cases.


You could have them around if you wanted but I don't believe they are ever mentioned in any SR product that I am aware of.


Half of the book Corporate Enclaves is all about LA. It's a 4e book, you may want to at least take a look at it at the book store.


Thanks, great Emperor! But what is your opinion on the two other books that I mentioned? Do they have a lot of information on the City of Angels?

Unfortunately, the 4th edition book is the only Shadowrun book that they sell, and the last copy, too! I guess I'll have to resort to Amazon...

As to Runner Paul, what self-respecting hippy wears a deer pelt? wobble.gif
Emperor Tippy
QUOTE (Sweaty Hippo @ May 17 2008, 11:25 PM) *
Thanks, great Emperor! But what is your opinion on the two other books that I mentioned? Do they have a lot of information on the City of Angels?

Unfortunately, the 4th edition book is the only Shadowrun book that they sell, and the last copy, too! I guess I'll have to resort to Amazon...


I'm not sure. I haven't ever read through either. I have them (a buddy gave me all his Shadowrun books, and he had most of them from 1e on) but I've never looked at them.
Sweaty Hippo
I've got two players genuinly interested. One's going to be a Technomancer, and the other a Troll skilled with guns and brawling. I will get two other players. As to the "roles," what does every Runner group require, to a lesser or greater extent?
vladski
Emp Tippy's long reply has it all right, save for my understanding of one thing:

Don't be holding your breath over Shadows of Latin America. It was supposed to come out for the 3rd edition of hte game and while it has mostly (nearly all, from my understanding) been written, a conflagration of events (mainly a new company taking over production of Shadowrun and a switch to 4th Ed. rules... some of us even think possibly an alien plot "What is in that book that they don;t want us to know?!?!?") put it on a side burner.

Now, unless something has been officially stated in the last month or two that I am unaware of, it's status is not changed: It's not quite vaporware as many of the authors chat on these forums, but if and when it will ever see the light of day is anyone's guess. And don't ask the developers on this site. They seem to field the question every other breath and have for a long itme. The answer will only frustrate you and annoy the developers, to paraphrase Robert Heinlein.

Vlad
Sweaty Hippo
QUOTE (vladski @ May 17 2008, 11:38 PM) *
Emp Tippy's long reply has it all right, save for my understanding of one thing:

Don't be holding your breath over Shadows of Latin America. It was supposed to come out for the 3rd edition of hte game and while it has mostly (nearly all, from my understanding) been written, a conflagration of events (mainly a new company taking over production of Shadowrun and a switch to 4th Ed. rules... some of us even think possibly an alien plot "What is in that book that they don;t want us to know?!?!?") put it on a side burner.

Now, unless something has been officially stated in the last month or two that I am unaware of, it's status is not changed: It's not quite vaporware as many of the authors chat on these forums, but if and when it will ever see the light of day is anyone's guess. And don't ask the developers on this site. They seem to field the question every other breath and have for a long itme. The answer will only frustrate you and annoy the developers, to paraphrase Robert Heinlein.

Vlad


Your advice will be noted.
imperialus
QUOTE (Sweaty Hippo @ May 17 2008, 09:13 PM) *
P.S. I looked at the Wiki entry, and it said two books that have information on Los Angeles (California Free State and Shadows of North America). However, I don't want to wait to get the books to start my game. spin.gif


Cal Free and SoNA are both pretty out of date. Big chunks of LA basically sunk between 3rd and 4th ed. They also saw the rise of a home grown megacorp (Horizon) and finally managed to drive the Japanese out.

Cal Free and SoNA are also both out of print so finding them might be a challenge. I'd recommend picking up Corporate Enclaves available in PDF from Battlecorps here.

I prefer the Tokyo entry in Corp Enclaves myself but I know lots of people who love LA too.

Oh, and I'd recommend against using a Technomancer for a starting character. You really need to be able to crunch the numbers and play the system to create a viable technomancer. They can be pretty potent but they take a lot of technique to use effectively. Go for a Hacker instead to introduce a player to the game.

A Troll with guns is pretty safe though.
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (Sweaty Hippo @ May 18 2008, 12:13 AM) *
1.) What is the "Sprawl?" I could not find a page on it in the Sixth World wiki nor the rulebook's index. From what I could guess, it sounds like the name for a section of a city.
"Sprawl" is an often used theme in cyberpunk and post-cyberpunk fiction. In general, it's a large city that ate several smaller cities for breakfast. Some of William Gibson's stories make reference to the "Boston-Atlanta Metroplex Axis" which is one large city that dominates most of the North American East Coast. While Shadorun sprawls aren't usually that large, it's still worth noting that the game's default setting of the Seattle Sprawl encompasses the area taken up by the present day cities of Seatle, Tacoma, Redmond, Bellevue, Snohomish, Puyallup, and Everett. (and that's just off the top of my head. I know I've forgotten a few.)


QUOTE
are the Bloods, Crips, and Aryan Brotherhood still around, or did they get defeated/assimilated into other gangs?
I can't speak for the other two, but acording to the books, racism based on skintone/hair color/eye color has mostly given way to racism based on metatype. The analog for today's Aryan Skinhead in Shadowrun time would be a member of Humanis/Alamos 20,000.


QUOTE
what self-respecting hippy wears a deer pelt?
One who thinks that by hunting down a deer with a bow and arrow, and making use every part of the carcass so that nothing goes to waste, he can somehow atone for the atrocities that the White Man inflicted on the Red Man in the 18th and 19th centuries, and the early 21st century. Self-respect is the furthest thing from their mindset.


QUOTE
As to the "roles," what does every Runner group require, to a lesser or greater extent?
Well, you've already got the Gunbunny and the Computer Guy covered. Throw in a Magic User and a Face/Con-Artist type, and you have a pretty standard runner team.
vladski
Not too long ago there was a nice thread recommending old edition books and what people thought were useful or essential to running a good 4th edition game. Obviously, they are all opinions and if you are new to SR, really, you can run a MIGHTY fine game without any of the old stuff. That being said, there is a huge wealth of great material in those old books.

Here's the link:

SR4-Compatible SR3 Books, Which are must-haves for SR4 GM's?

Post Number 6 on that thread is mine and I took the time to list and rate a huge number of 1st and 2nd Edition books that I think are useful.

While the first two editions of SR stuff are harder to get, you will still find many of them languishing on used RPG shelves at your favorite local gaming stores and a ton of htem show up on eBay regularly, for surprisingly cheap prices.

Finally, I recomend both Cal Free State and Shadows of N. America if you are going to run an LA based game. They might be a bit out of date, but they will provide your "history" Then use the newer book to jsut see what's changed.

Oh, and welcome both to Dumpshock and to the world of Shadowrun, chummer!

Vlad
Sweaty Hippo
QUOTE (imperialus @ May 17 2008, 11:43 PM) *
Oh, and I'd recommend against using a Technomancer for a starting character. You really need to be able to crunch the numbers and play the system to create a viable technomancer. They can be pretty potent but they take a lot of technique to use effectively. Go for a Hacker instead to introduce a player to the game.


I will point this out.

QUOTE (RunnerPaul @ May 17 2008, 11:49 PM) *
Well, you've already got the Gunbunny and the Computer Guy covered. Throw in a Magic User and a Face/Con-Artist type, and you have a pretty standard runner team.

By magic user, do you mean "Adept," "Magician," "Mystical Adept," or any of the three? Also, I have three dedicated players, so if the beginning group had to not have one role, should it be the Magic User or the Face?
DocTaotsu
Whenver you buy and read source books it usually helps (and is rather interesting) so make sure you read them in order.

The Neoanarchists Guide to North America is a fantastic book. Target: UCAS, not so much. NGNA is unfortunately a little out of date in some respects but don't let that stop you from digging into it with both hands.

As to non-America running. As mentioned Shadows of Asia is fantastic and I'm currently using it for my campaign. I'm reading Target: Awakened Lands and that's a very enjoyable book but can't wholeheartedly recommend it yet.


Oh and I think he's refering to mages. Adepts are cool but they don't have nearly the utility that a good mage. Mystic Adepts are... tricky and you might want to steer clear of them until you've really gotten used to the magic system. If this is your first time playing SR I highly recommend you look browse through the "How Do You Teach Shadowrun" thread. A couple of people, myself included, recommend that you start with something simple (3 guys with guns) and slowly mix in new elements as you all become comfortable with the system. It's taken me several months to get a handle on magic and I'm just now sliding Matrix gameplay into my game. Throwing combat, rigging, magic, and the matrix into a first game can be daunting and overwhelming.
vladski
QUOTE (Sweaty Hippo @ May 17 2008, 11:57 PM) *
I will point this out.


By magic user, do you mean "Adept," "Magician," "Mystical Adept," or any of the three? Also, I have three dedicated players, so if the beginning group had to not have one role, should it be the Magic User or the Face?


If I had to ditch one "archetype, it would be the "Face"

Actually, there's no reason any character can't be "the face." A Magic User, especially if he's a Shaman build, probably took a high charisma (It's a major quality for his drain test). Supplement that with a few useful skills, and you have a "Face."

I concur with new players/GM's staying completely away from Technomancers. I'd recommend to the player, if he wants to deal with the Matrix, to play a hacker instead. Technomancers are "advanced" characters and need a lot of indepth understanding of the rules to play them correctly. I've been playing SR for over a decade now and I don't even allow TM's in my game for this reason.

If I had to state what three builds I would compose a core team of:

A Shaman that's also a face
A Gun bunny/melee-ist that's built around being an Adept
A Streetsam/Mercenary type build that can also work as the hacker.

Unless you as the GM just really want it in your game, the core can get by without a Rigger archetype pretty easily. Just have one of hte above take a decent piloting skill in Groundcraft. The Streetsam/Merc might even take a Vehicle Rig if he wants/has room.

Vlad
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (vladski @ May 18 2008, 12:53 AM) *
That being said, there is a huge wealth of great material in those old books.

In particular, I reccomend Sprawl Survival Guide and Mr. Johnson's Little Black Book as two of the finest books for entry-level introduction to Shadowrun. These were some of the last books to be printed out of 3rd edition, and while some of the material is a bit out of date now, they're very good books for getting a feel for what Shadowrun as a game and a setting are all about.


QUOTE (Sweaty Hippo)
By magic user, do you mean "Adept," "Magician," "Mystical Adept," or any of the three?

Specifically, I mean "Magician". While magic makes Adepts what they are, it's not really what they "use" to acomplish their role in a team. And Mystical Adepts, being halfway between the two, have their own unique quirks.

I agree with the other poster's suggestions for the stacking of roles if you only have three players, as there some heavy overlaps that you can synergize to your advantage.
DocTaotsu
I'd also personally recommend that you allow players to fiddle with their character builds after the first few games. Typically everyone forgets a skill that they really need (Perception is popular at my table) or decides that a skill doesn't necessarily work for the character.

Don't be afraid to NPC hackers, riggers, even mages (although magic us an integral part of the setting so you might as well suck it up and start learning).
Muspellsheimr
QUOTE (Sweaty Hippo @ May 17 2008, 09:33 PM) *
As to the "roles," what does every Runner group require, to a lesser or greater extent?

That depends heavily on your style of play. As such, there is no single "must-have" profession. However, for the standard Shadowrun campaign, the following are suggested, and common.

Hacker/Technomancer:
The go-to guy for everything involving the matrix, their most common job is intel gathering & covering your ass (deleting records, etc.)

Samurai/Adept: The combat character, these are what you want in the (inevitable) gunfight. Specialties can range from Unarmed to Autocannons. The Samurai is a mundane character with heavy augmentation to give him/her a much-needed edge in combat. The Adept uses magic to do what the Samurai relies on tech for.
Note: Adepts are not always combat characters, but this is their most common role. Second would probably be as a Face (see below).

Magician: The go-to guy for everything magical, spellslingers are very powerful characters, but do have their downsides & limits. They can be generic, using everything that may be useful, to specialized in almost anything (combat, healing, mind-control, etc.) A second, very important job provided by the magician is Counterspellig. Without the added magical defense, the runner team will likely get slaughtered the first time they face off with a mage of any respectable power level.

Face: The Face is the team's front-man. He does the talking. He negotiates for payments. He is often the source for the job. A secondary element common to the Face is infiltration. A skilled Face can go anywhere & be anyone.


As for actually running the game, I would strongly recommend not making house rules until you have a firm understanding of the system. In combat situations, remember that it is easy to kill, & easy to be killed. Tactics are very important, and you want to use cover whenever possible. Be sure to apply all dice pool modifiers. Experienced GM's can eyeball this, but for someone just learning the system, it is important to take the time and look everything up to make sure you are doing it right. And probably the single most important thing to remember, depending on what previous games you have come from, is there is no way to bring back a dead character - avoid death in every way possible. You can also burn a point of Edge (permanently loose it) to survive.

I would also recommend giving your players each one of the sample characters available in the core book, and running a few games with them to learn the system without risking death to a character they actually like. Allow any karma earned to carry over to their 'official' characters. Also remember that it commonly takes upwards of 4 hours to generate a character, even for those who know the system (it takes me easily a week to get a character how I want it). Equipment often requires the most time.

QUOTE (DocTaotsu @ May 17 2008, 10:26 PM) *
I'd also personally recommend that you allow players to fiddle with their character builds after the first few games. Typically everyone forgets a skill that they really need (Perception is popular at my table) or decides that a skill doesn't necessarily work for the character.

Agree'd. I would recommend allowing them to make minor changes for the first month (or 4 sessions if you play more than once a week). After that, the character's are fixed. This is also a good idea even when you understand the system. I still forget minor things once in a while (one of the reasons it takes me so long to make a character, as this is usually not allowed at our games)

Tips for Your Players
Use cover. Do not be afraid to loose an action for Full Defense. It is far more effective to not get hit than it is to try and soak the damage.

The best way to survive is to not get in a fight. Avoid armed confrontations whenever possible. This will keep the Jonson happy with a low body count, bring down less law-enforcement heat onto you, save funding on ammunition, and increase your overall survivability.

If you do not like the idea of loosing Essence, use magic. A simple un-augmented mundane will be little more than cannon-fodder in the shadows.

For the Technomancer, take all the Complex Forms you want at the highest rating at character generation. It is far more expensive to upgrade them with Karma.

Do not take any negative qualities at character generation you cannot live with. It is incredibly expensive to remove them during gameplay, and so in all but the most extreme cases, not worth doing so.


On a final note, if you just happen to be in the Albuqueruqe area, I would not mind joining another game.
imperialus
Was thinking about your players concerns about street sams and the limited amount of essence that they have to spend and I figured I'd toss out my reasoning behind why they're my favorite archtype to play. It boils down to versatility.

A well built street sam can do a little bit of everything that doesn't involve magic. His ware lets him give and take damage like nobody's business (though a one trick pony adept can out damage them) and since most of his upgrades will involve nuyen it frees up Karma to advance skills. My longest running PC, a troll named Elfin-Face eventually learned how to deck (hack), handle most vehicles the team needed, and deal with underworld figures. He built or customized his own guns, moonlighted as the team mechanic and all sorts of other things that the other team members just couldn't do. He was still perfectly acceptable in combat, tossing 14+ dice with pistols, assault rifles, and his implanted cyberspurs. The teams other street sam chose not to diversify and focused on damage output. He rolled over 20 dice with an LMG mounted on an articulated arm coming out of his back while duel wielding pistols and could fight the most twinked out physad to a standstill with his cougar fine blades.

An adept will only ever really shine at one thing, it might be pistols, it might be knives, it might be talking to people but they don't have anywhere near the versatility that a sam will because they are limited by an inability to take any kind of ware without their magic suffering. This means that in order to advance they need buckets of karma. Money doesn't mean much but every point of karma that an adept puts into another grade of initiation is a point that isn't spent rounding out his skills. While a street sam spends their cash on better ware and their karma on better skills the adept just hordes his money, maybe buys a weapon focus or two and a luxury lifestyle but there isn't much else he can do with it. In the mean time he's stuck trying to stretch every single point of karma to the breaking point just to keep his edge.
DocTaotsu
I adept is also capable of walking through most security checkpoints with only a cursorary astral glance.

But nah, I generally have to agree. Adepts are specialists by nature and that makes them one trick ponies. A sam can always get skillwires and carry around a pocket full of chips with brand new tricks.
vladski
On the other hand, adepts are a boatload of fun! Most beginning players will enjoy playing them. The "traditional" adept is your "ninja guy." Physically superior, capable of dealing out (and even taking) decent damage and usually stealthy as hell. They are a great infiltrator if they take Astral Perception, and are a good bodyguard for a mage/shaman, if they have both Astral Perception and Astral combat and a decent weapon focus.

Role playing wise, especially for a beginner, they have some nice hooks: playing the snobby foil to the street sam that has all that *holds nose* "non-organic" stuff in them. Yet, when the drek is flying, it's often them and the Sammy, fighting back to back that save the day (usually saving the mage's hoop so he has time to call down the wrath of the heavens on your opponents.)

(Traditional)Adepts frequently also make up the shortstop guy for the team. While they are usually one of the top fighters (typically only out shined by a well-built Street Sam) if you need a guy to do ANYTHING physical that takes agility or reaction, he's your metahuman! He can probably drive a getaway car, makes a great impromptu sniper and in 4th edition can be a decent break-in guy with a good hardware skill , tools and 'trodes. As with any other character, he can be a great face, and without sacrificing too many BP points here can definitely be a good backup. What it boils down to, the adept can be versatile and for a new player, if he doesn't try to specialize too hard, will never be bored and will always have something to do. And will probably frequently find himself being the "hero" for the party...coming through and saving their bacon when the chips are down.

It only costs 5 BP to take the Adept quality (and if you stay at a Magic 5) only another 50 BP to gain all their Adept abilities. So, in designing your typical Character with 400 BP, you've only spent 255 BP for a boatload of attributes and Adept super-boosters. That leaves you a whopping 145BP to spend on skills and Gear, Contacts and Edge. Personally, I'd consider a 15 or 20 point Negative quality to pay for that extra point of magic to go to Magic 6...say Sensitive System, if you truly never want to go "cyber" with this guy. Remember, you aren't going to be paying for ANY of that expensive cyberware out of your BPs. Another nice side benefit to the Adept is that you aren't going to be raising any flags with all your "illegal" (and unditchable) cyber at a checkpoint.

Another thing to remember is that an adept can also take a mentor spirit. Not only does this allow a role playing hook/set of ideals for your character, there are some that can provide worthy bonuses to your character:
Examples:

Dark King:
Advantages: +2 dice for Perception and Assensing Tests, +2 dice for spirits of man.
Disadvantages: –1 die to resist Physical damage.

Rat:
Advantages: +2 dice for Infiltration Tests, +2 dice for resisting disease and poisons
Disadvantages: A Rat magician must make a Willpower + Charisma (3) Test to not immediately flee or seek cover whenever
caught in a combat situation. If there is nowhere to flee, then she is forced to fight.

Thunderbird:
Advantages: +2 dice for air spirits, +2 dice for Intimidation Tests
Disadvantages: A Thunderbird magician must succeed in a Willpower + Charisma (3) Test to avoid responding to an insult
in kind.

The above are all examples of Mentor Spirits that don't have some sort of spell boost as part of their advantages. 5BP to pick up 2 dice to some pretty important rolls is a thing not to be overlooked, especially when the added flavor to the character is considered.

House Rule to Consider
As a side note, my group has decided that with mentor spirits that do have spell boosts and/ or spirit boosts, you get those dice in those types of things. Example:
Raven:
Advantages: +2 dice for Manipulation spells, +2 dice for air spirits.
Disadvantages: A Raven magician must make a Willpower + Charisma (3) Test to avoid exploiting someone else’s misfortune
to her own advantage.

An adept that follows Raven would not only get his normal defense test against Manipulation type spells, but get to add two dice to that pool. Ditto, if he is facing an air spirit. If he is attacking one, say with Astral Combat, he adds a pair of dice to the attack. If he is defending against an attack from one he gets those dice as well. We find it it helps balance out magic a bit for the mundanes by allowing one more character a slightly improved chance of fighting against magical foes.

________________________



In the end, it is sort of silly to completely compare all/any of the archetypes. It really depends on what guy you want to role-play. Also, remember most shadowrun games are played as a "team." No one character is gonna have all the skills to be the uber-guy at everything. You really do need that core 4 types: Warrior, Mage, Hacker, Infiltrator. Typically, the Adept can fill/supplement the Warrior and Infiltrator roles marvelously. With his peek into the magical realm he can also be a nice complement to the Mage and with, appropriate gear and skills, at least a second rate hacker.

The Adept is far from broken and there are a vast number of ways one can be put together. As with most things, it depends on the type of game the GM is running as to how completely needed or awesome he is. I usually don't worry too much about growth caps, down the line. The Adept can do a lot of growing along the way and yet, can be damn impressive right off the blocks. Besides, like most newbie runners, he'll probably get geeked on the streets inside of 6 months. Welcome to the shadows, chummer. ANYONE can die and frequently does. biggrin.gif

Vlad
DocTaotsu
Yeah, I have much love for the adepts smile.gif

And yeah, what archetypes you need for a game is largely based on what kind of game you want to run. We had a rip roaring good game with only two characters. One guy was an adept sniper, the other guy was a troll gun bunny with tactics and a taste for Jazz.

Cain
The four areas that need to be covered are: Magic, Muscle, Tech, Social. If you have all those bases covered, you have a well-rounded team. If you don't have four players, don't worry: you can double up, so one character covers more than one role. For example, anyone with a high charisma and good social skills can double as the Face. Every character should be able to hold their own in combat, so you'll have a lot of backup muscle. And any character with a high Gear budget should be able to find enough cash to buy a decent commlink and a few choice programs. A dedicated Face or Decker, like a dedicated Street Samurai or Adept, will naturally trounce the second-stringers; but that's not really a problem. Everyone should have an overlapping skill set to some extent, but everyone should also be able to shine in their specialty.

Magic is the difficult one. In order to provide what a team needs to face down mages as enemies, they'll need a full mage on their team. Counterspelling is pretty much the only defense against hostile spells, and spirits are the easiest way to defend against spirits. But to create a mage who can counterspell and provide the other major contributions that a mage should, requires a dedicated build. You aren't going to be able to create a "dabbler" in magic and have an effective character. Making a mage double as muscle or as a Face isn't hard, though: a few select augmentations, and said mage will be indistinguishable from a light samurai; and since mages already benefit from a high charisma, getting decent high social skill pools is not difficult. If your team doesn't have a mage, the GM can drop magical opposition to compensate, but that leaves out a lot of the flavor of Shadowrun.

With your Troll with guns, you have the Muscle part covered. Rather he goes Street Samurai or Adept (Cybernetic versus Magical augmentations) is largely a personal choice; either can be easily made into a highly effective character. The Techie concept you have would take a lot of work, so going with a standard matrix specialist (what us Shadowrun classicists would call a Decker) is a better choice. Either one of these could also take the Influence skill group at 3 or 4, making them into an effective Face (but because of the troll's attribute limitations, it's best that said role go to someone else).
Sweaty Hippo
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ May 18 2008, 01:42 AM) *
On a final note, if you just happen to be in the Albuqueruqe area, I would not mind joining another game.


Unfortunately, I'm thousands of miles away from that city.

Holy crap, I go to sleep and wake up to find a bucket-load of posts full of advice! Do newbies here cause a lot of attention or something?

Setting detail question: do civilians have the right to bear arms in Los Angeles? I noticed that most firearms are restricted, but not illegal. Of course, most runners won't care, but it will probably be a concern if some observant bystander notices a character with a concealed pistol.
Fortune
QUOTE (Sweaty Hippo @ May 19 2008, 05:07 AM) *
Do newbies here cause a lot of attention or something?


Not especially.

You could probably have had even more response, but weekends are always slow on Dumpshock.
Zak
QUOTE (Sweaty Hippo @ May 18 2008, 01:07 PM) *
Holy crap, I go to sleep and wake up to find a bucket-load of posts full of advice! Do newbies here cause a lot of attention or something?


There were quite a few the last weeks, but dumpshock is one of the more friendly forums for new people wink.gif
Personally it is a good way to recap rules. Or notice my group completly forgot some of them were even there in the first place biggrin.gif
vladski
QUOTE (Zak @ May 18 2008, 03:56 PM) *
There were quite a few the last weeks, but dumpshock is one of the more friendly forums for new people wink.gif
Personally it is a good way to recap rules. Or notice my group completly forgot some of them were even there in the first place biggrin.gif


Dumpshock Noobs keep our games SOTA. nyahnyah.gif

And, to refer back to that last post by Cain: I still call 'em deckers. Everytime I am on here, I try to be sure to properly call them "hackers" when referring to SR4 and a little part of me dies inside. wink.gif

Decker's are cool bad-ass mo-fos with sleek mini-laptops attached to their noggin' with a fiber optic cable, slinking around behind the troll with the BFG, ready to play havoc with the Man's defenses.

Hackers are pimply faced geeks eating Doritos and giggling because they uploaded porn onto Microsoft's official download site for the latest Windows Vista upgrade.

I know, I know... that's wrong of me and it infuriates the entire real hacker community. Still, I can't help my brain. biggrin.gif

Vlad
Sweaty Hippo
Alright, I started my first game. It went very well. The player with the Troll decided to have an Elf Gunslinger Adept named Brendon instead of his original character. The second player decided to be a human detective type named Shinji that has a knack for computers. The guys had a mission from Mr. Johnson (an Elf in a suit) to help a girl that escaped from a Bunraku parlor by transporting her to Tijuana in Aztlan waters to escape the Yakuza's grip. Our pair of runners found out that three tough-looking Japanese dudes were tailing them, but due to luck, the Yakuza lost track of them. The pair took a car through a rival gang's territory to make sure that the mobsters wouldn't follow. With some fancy driving skills, the detective made it through the Barrens at high enough speed to escape the dangerous area quickly. The pair reached the docks, and found a group of dock workers who recognized the pair. "We were told by the Elf to secure the girl." Just in case, the detective gave the girl his commlink address to call if the guys happened to be liars. She called back 4 hours later, telling him that she was in Tijuana.

The group managed to avoid any fights, until the Adept returned to his Squatter shack, only to find that somebody spray-painted "Big Willy wuz here" on his door. Angered, the Adept tracked Big Willy through the Barrens to a seedy bar named the Drunken Weasel. Big Willy was bragging to the bar patrons of his deed, so the Adept opened fire. Having a high agility, he managed to shoot Willy and his buddies down, in addition to an angry Troll bartender. The Hacker found out in the parlor Girl's recorded chip of a wealthy Renraku executives' taped escapades. He sold it to Mr. Johnson for blackmail material.
The detective has bought Commlinks, Audio, and Visual enhancements for Cyberware purposes, but other than that, his body is "pure."
The Adept just bought a trode on the chance that he needs to surf the Matrix highway.
Our group needs a good Face, as the detective is good at finding people, but is Uncouth and has no social skills. The Adept lets his guns do the talking. Other than the Adept, there are no magicians or Astral specialists, and the detective doubles as a hacker. I just stuck to the party's strong points so that they would have fun.

Since the Japanese had Los Angeles for a while, I would assume that the Yakuza and Renraku had influence before the Pueblo Corporate Council annexed the city.
Of the megacorps, which of the "Big Ten" are the most active in the affairs of Los Angeles?

P.S. I had one memorable event, in which the characters were meeting the Mr. Johnson at a coffee shop.

Shinji: "We are more than willing to accept your offer, except that there is one problem."

Mr. Johnson: "What is that?"

Shinji: "Next time, pick a better meeting place. This coffee sucks."
Fortune
QUOTE (Sweaty Hippo @ May 19 2008, 11:23 AM) *
Since the Japanese had Los Angeles for a while, I would assume that the Yakuza and Renraku had influence before the Pueblo Corporate Council annexed the city.


As far as I know, Japan concentrated more on the San Francisco area. I don't think they made too many inroads into L.A.

QUOTE
Of the megacorps, which of the "Big Ten" are the most active in the affairs of Los Angeles?


Horizon is the big Mega in L.A. Sure, all the others are there, but the city is Horizon's home base.
Sweaty Hippo
What is Horizon's main product/schtick? Ex: Renraku is computers, Aztechnology is big in blood magic, etc.
Muspellsheimr
QUOTE (Sweaty Hippo @ May 18 2008, 07:23 PM) *
Our group needs a good Face, as the detective is good at finding people, but is Uncouth and has no social skills.

There is a bit of disagreement over Uncouth on the forums, because of how social skills work. Because social skills are resisted with social skills, quite a few people believe an Uncouth character cannot resist social skills being used against him/her. Because of this, it is probably the worst quality in the book.

However, some people, such as myself, do not view resisting social skills as a use of the skill, and so do not apply defaulting modifiers (and Uncouth does not affect your resistance). This is how I would strongly recommend running it, not only because it makes the quality viable, but because I am (in RL) Uncouth, and it certainly does not reduce my ability to resist such things. It even makes it more difficult for most people to effectively influence me.

Regardless, you should decide on how you view the Uncouth quality working with resisting social skills, and if it makes you unable to do so, inform your player and allow him a chance to change it if he would like.
DocTaotsu
Horizon's main "product" is the media. They control major sources of news, entertainment, and so forth. Basically they're a corps that specializes in giving the public what it wants, which just so happens to be what they told the public to want.
Fortune
QUOTE (Sweaty Hippo @ May 19 2008, 12:13 PM) *
What is Horizon's main product/schtick?


Media, Marketing and Entertainment.

As an aside, Aztechnology's main 'schtick' is Consumer Products. They also have one of the best PR departments, and the bulk of the public opinion is that the corporation as a whole is pretty damn good. Very little of the 'shadowy evil magic stuff' ever sees the light of day.
Snow_Fox
Just to go back to the first question. a Luddite' is a temr that goes back to England in the early 19th century. As the industrial revolution was getting underway laborers, fearing they were losing their jobs to machines, especially in milling cloth, would break into factories at night and destroy the machines. Leaving notes they claimed they were working for "General Ned Ludd" So they were the "Luddites."

Although we no longer smash new tech people who avoid it are still called Luddites harking back to those early vandals. For example I do not have an Mp3 player bought one, just couldn't get it to work so gave up and took it back. I'll just keep going with CD's
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (Sweaty Hippo @ May 18 2008, 09:13 PM) *
What is Horizon's main product/schtick? Ex: Renraku is computers, Aztechnology is big in blood magic, etc.

Horizon? From what I've gathered about them so far, their big thing is Mememtic Engineering and use of the media to propagate their well crafted Memes for the purposes of Viral Marketing. In current times the use of memes (an idea or a bit of pop culture so influential that it compels a brain that contains it to pass the information on to other brains) is still in its infancy. By the 2070s, with nearly everyone tied into the global matrix and communicating with each other every waking minute of the day, ubiquitous use of Augmented Reality, and simsense technology that can control not only what someone sees and hears, but also what emotions they experience at the same time (and that's not even couting BTL-level Simsense that provides a better-than-life experience akin to a drug high), it's no wonder we have a megacorp who's core business is shaping the hearts and minds of the masses.
vladski
Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't LA/Pueblo kick Aztechnology and all it's subs out after the quake(s) in the late 60's? I think it's in the stuff in Corporate Enclaves.

And if that's the case, I wonder what company has the convenience store market sewed up, since Stuffer Shack is an AZT compnay. Hmmmm...

Vlad
Fortune
Yes. Officially Aztechnology does not do business in L.A.

That ban is, as far as I know, only for Aztechnology. Not for individual subsidiaries of the Megacorporation. Saeder Krupp has done the same thing in a number of locations where the 'parent' corporation could not openly do business.

So Stuffer Shack, as a unique entity in and of itself should be good to go.

Horizon is making big inroads on consumer goods though, probably filling the vacuum left by Aztechnology's absence.
Sweaty Hippo
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ May 18 2008, 10:13 PM) *
It even makes it more difficult for most people to effectively influence me.


You probably also have Guts. rotfl.gif
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