Dumpshock Forums > How Would I Go About Unarmed?

tsuyoshikentsu

May 21 2008, 06:18 PM

Hey all... this is my first post here.

(If any of you recognizes the screenname, yes, I'm the same one.)

So a question, which is really two questions. I'm trying to make an orc unarmed combat specialist. The first question is of course the build; I can do a gun-bunny fine, but for this sort of thing I'm completely lost. I'm assuming things like martial arts and the Augmentation specialized cyberlimbs are good, but I have no idea if they're worth the trade of having to average your values and I have no idea which of the martial arts are good. My last problem is that, unless absolutely necessary, any above-the-waist cyberlimbs need to be synthetic.

My other question is a bit more complex. I've played a melee character once or twice, and I always hit the same problem: while I'm running over to take care of the enemies, my gun-bunny friends put holes in them before I even get there. If I end up contributing at all, it's as a bunching bag for bullets. Any thoughts on what to do about this?

Zak

May 21 2008, 06:22 PM

Get a ranged skill like anyone else. There are quite some threads about exactly this topic hiding right under the search function.

In a game with guns, you can not expect to stay unharmed unarmed.

ArkonC

May 21 2008, 06:31 PM

Sound advice...

But for unarmed, you need a vector of delivery...
Stealth, evasion or soaking seem to be the 3 main ones...
Stealth: If they don't see you close in, they die... (High Stealth)
Evasion: If they can't hit you while closing in, they die... (High Reaction and Reakt, Combat Sense)
Soaking: If they can't hurt you while closing in, they die... (High Body and Bone Density, Dermal Seath, as much armor as you can without taking penalties)

I would say make it an adept, out of the box, adepts make the best punchers, IMO...
Tack on some ware for pragmatic purposes and you've got a winner...

But don't be daft, get a ranged skill, yes, you can shine with unarmed and you can kick major butt, but don't gimp yourself by not knowing how to fire a gun...

EDIT: HAHA! I beat Screamin Demon and Adarael! I WIN tha intarweb

Screamin Demon

May 21 2008, 06:32 PM

If you really want to do the martial artist type the best two are the crazy stealth ambushing ninja who streaks out of nowhere murdering half the enemies in the turn he reveals himself (Thanks to their inability to defend and a decent melee pool). Such characters often 'steal' a lot of the action, as you will tend to end up using your group for more of a distraction then anything else.
And I would go adept for ninjaness. They do better maxing out on the necessary skills.

The other good melee build would be the hulking troll wrestler. I find cyberware trumps adept ability in this build, as killing hands is easily replicated by bone density, and if you are going to roll with such a large target you really need to have a serious soak. You will run into the same problem with the troll, though. When the enemies begin at range your wired reflexed omaes blast the drek out of em before you can close to decent range.
But when you finally get the chance, landing a grapple and then ripping a finishing move in the same initiative pass to do somewhere around 20P damage to something is really fun to describe yourself doing.
It can all be accomplished without a single cyberlimb, as a high strength with muscle augmentation/replacement usually wins out over limb replacement.
Make sure to look up all the martial arts in Arsenal, a lot of them are really worth it.

A side note worth mentioning with the troll wrestler build is if you want to go adept you sacrifice a lot of your soaking capabilities (Unless you spring for type O and sacrifice a point or two of magic), but can buy the capacity to put your wrestling smackdown on spirits, as well as buying up the 'Power Throw' ability, which paired up with a decent strength to begin with can make for increased lethality at range, and synergies very well with the 'throw' maneuver in augmentation. Throwing your enemies 10+ meters at other enemies is always a whole lot of fun to do.

EDIT: ArkonC, you need to go get laid.

Adarael

May 21 2008, 06:34 PM

You're basically describing the problem with close range combatants. If you're generally fighting at a distance from your targets or in open-air areas, the guys with guns are gonna kill the targets before you get close...or you're gonna end up drawing fire when you move from behind cover.

Things change to be much more in your favor if you end up fighting in close quarters, such as indoors or from an ambush.

It's really an issue of environment rather than anything else. Make them fight on your terrain. Or if they won't, use stealth to close the distance. With a chameleon suit and a stealth roll to get from point a to point b, they're not gonna be able to shoot you unless the spend an "observe in detail" simple action to make a perception test against your stealth.

tsuyoshikentsu

May 21 2008, 06:44 PM

Well, I've got to keep it an orc, but I'm not adverse to magic use. I just kind of have to be hand-held through it. The stealthy ninja seems to be the consensus here... what should I be looking for?

And RE martial arts, which ones are the best for this sort of thing? And how many points should I put in the quality?

I'm sorry that I'm having to ask all this; I'm just not nearly as good with Shadowrun as I'd like. (Part of the reason I joined Dumpshock, really.)

Screamin Demon

May 21 2008, 06:52 PM

Ninjitsu would be best, as it gives you dice to do what you want.
Improved Stealth is a must. A point of counter-attack and a lot of gymnastic skill to aid you in full defense. Then just kit out your favored melee skill (Vibro blades are always fun)

Read up on adept abilities, find the ones you like.

Your MO is going to be delaying the first combat round (As I expect you to only have 3 initiative passes anyway) then leaping out of the darkness taking a run action to get yourself in contact with as many of the enemy as possible. Split your melee pool to roll a pittance on as many as possible, you will only need a single success as they will not be defending against your attacks. This should murder a whole bunch of them. They won't be able to react to your presence (to hurt you) untill your next turn where you will take advantage of your insane gymnastics skill to go on full defence and ninja your ass back to the shadows where, if your team mates don't clean up what you left behind in the next turn or two, you come flying back out for another ambush (This all depends on environment. Carry smoke bombs).

Why the loyalty to ork, may I ask?

tsuyoshikentsu

May 21 2008, 08:10 PM

Open Arsenal to page 162. That's why.

evil_bacteria

May 21 2008, 08:42 PM

Honestly, in a paper-and-pencil RPG, it doesn't matter how TOUGH you are, it just matters how much fun you have. If you want an Ork, make an Ork. If you want him to be magical, make an adept. If not, chrome him out.

It also helps to have a GM who understands that everyone needs a time to shine. Think about this.

The team is hunkered behind a wall, with a dozen enemy combatants on the other side throwing lead at them. The street sam with the smartlink rolls around the corner and blasts a couple corpers to bloody paste.

Out of nowhere, a whirling, screaming air elemental bursts on the scene, buffeting the team around. The street sam fires, but his guns are useless, his bullets passing through the monster with no effect. The shaman stands up, waves his arms, and fires bolt after bolts of magical energy into the spirit, driving it back until he can banish the thing to the astral.

Turning their attention to the corpers, the team notices they've brought in some drones wielding rocket launchers and machine guns. The wall that's providing cover takes a pounding; bullets bounce off the armored hulls of the machines, and the mage can't beat their OR to deal any damage. Suddenly, the hacker laughs as the drones go berserk, blasting each other into scrap metal as he overrides their programming.

Things seem to be fine now, but no! From behind emerges three more corpers, SMGs ready, about to geek the runners in five seconds flat, so close they can't help but hit their targets. Without a word, the grappler leaps into action, fists flying, screams of chaos and thunks of flesh on flesh filling the air. Within moments, the corpers are unconscious or dead, and the team is saved. Everybody played a part.

paws2sky

May 21 2008, 08:45 PM

QUOTE (tsuyoshikentsu @ May 21 2008, 03:10 PM)

Open Arsenal to page 162. That's why.

That is a great picture.

ArkonC

May 21 2008, 09:23 PM

QUOTE (evil_bacteria @ May 21 2008, 10:42 PM)

Honestly, in a paper-and-pencil RPG, it doesn't matter how TOUGH you are, it just matters how much fun you have. If you want an Ork, make an Ork. If you want him to be magical, make an adept. If not, chrome him out.

It also helps to have a GM who understands that everyone needs a time to shine. Think about this.

The team is hunkered behind a wall, with a dozen enemy combatants on the other side throwing lead at them. The street sam with the smartlink rolls around the corner and blasts a couple corpers to bloody paste.

Out of nowhere, a whirling, screaming air elemental bursts on the scene, buffeting the team around. The street sam fires, but his guns are useless, his bullets passing through the monster with no effect. The shaman stands up, waves his arms, and fires bolt after bolts of magical energy into the spirit, driving it back until he can banish the thing to the astral.

Turning their attention to the corpers, the team notices they've brought in some drones wielding rocket launchers and machine guns. The wall that's providing cover takes a pounding; bullets bounce off the armored hulls of the machines, and the mage can't beat their OR to deal any damage. Suddenly, the hacker laughs as the drones go berserk, blasting each other into scrap metal as he overrides their programming.

Things seem to be fine now, but no! From behind emerges three more corpers, SMGs ready, about to geek the runners in five seconds flat, so close they can't help but hit their targets. Without a word, the grappler leaps into action, fists flying, screams of chaos and thunks of flesh on flesh filling the air. Within moments, the corpers are unconscious or dead, and the team is saved. Everybody played a part.

Good scene...
Never happens in play...
And completely irrelevant...
Someone asks how to build a good unarmed fighter, you reply by saying he doesn't need advice, he should just play what he wants?
Get this, he wants to play a good unarmed fighter...

Adarael

May 21 2008, 09:26 PM

Maybe it doesn't happen in your games. I can think of some situations in mine that are nigh identical.

tsuyoshikentsu

May 21 2008, 09:50 PM

I figure since Trollman's here I can be acerbic. So, Adarael:

Optimiziation or GTFO. Have a nice day.

QUOTE (paws2sky @ May 21 2008, 01:45 PM)

That is a great picture.

Yes it is.

Adarael

May 21 2008, 09:58 PM

Optimization doesn't HAVE to mean "not awesome and cinematic." I mean, if optimization just meant max kill count, play a rigger. Drones with autofire.

Sometimes optimization also means "I punch him so hard his lungs come out his back!"

ArkonC

May 21 2008, 09:59 PM

QUOTE (Adarael @ May 21 2008, 11:26 PM)

Maybe it doesn't happen in your games. I can think of some situations in mine that are nigh identical.

Where everyone waits around for their turn to do something?
No, that doesn't happen very often with us, usually, all of us are busy trying to save our lives...

Here's how it would be in our group (Changes in italics):

The team is hunkered behind a wall, with a dozen enemy combatants on the other side throwing lead at them. The street sam with the smartlink rolls around the corner and blasts a couple corpers to bloody paste while the shaman throws down some bolts, the hacker is coordinating the AR tactical overlay and the melee man is looking for avenues of approach.

Out of nowhere, a whirling, screaming air elemental bursts on the scene, buffeting the team around. The street sam ~~fires, but his guns are useless, his bullets passing through the monster with no effect~~ knows the shaman will handle it and keeps shooting the corpers. The shaman ~~stands up,~~ waves his arms, and fires bolt after bolts of magical energy into the spirit, driving it back until he can banish the thing to the astral, the hacker alerts everyone to the drones that are closing in on them, the melee man gets in position to jump the remaining corpers.

~~Turning their attention to the corpers, the team notices they've brought in some drones wielding rocket launchers and machine guns.~~ The wall that's providing cover takes a pounding; ~~bullets bounce off the armored hulls of the machines, and the mage can't beat their OR to deal any damage.~~ the sam starts taking down the drones while the hacker jams their input; the shaman put up a barrier to reinforce the wall they're behind; ~~Suddenly, the hacker laughs as the drones go berserk, blasting each other into scrap metal as he overrides their programming.~~ Mr. Melee jumps the corpers who are surprised and easily deals with the rest of them.

Things seem to be fine now, but no! From behind emerges three more corpers, SMGs ready, about to geek the runners in five seconds flat, so close they can't help but hit their targets. ~~Without a word, the grappler leaps into action, fists flying, screams of chaos and thunks of flesh on flesh filling the air.~~ Everyone piles up on the 3 poor corpers who should have left well enough alone... Within moments, the corpers are unconscious or dead, and the team is saved. Everybody still played a part and was useful all the time.

EDIT: Maybe my group has been playing together for too long, but everyone shines most of the time...

Adarael

May 21 2008, 10:02 PM

Okay, I thought you meant in your games people just stood up and did white wall combat of the "I shoot him twice." Variety. Sorry for misunderstanding.

Teulisch

May 21 2008, 10:05 PM

hmm. dump stats of charisma and logic (make em 2 each), everything else is useful. will should be either 3 or 5. the thoughness and high pain tollerance qualities may help.

chrome up, but focus on bioware. wired reflexes to go fast on a budget, then get bone density 4, muscle toner and augmentation at 2, reflex recorder for the unarmed skill. choice of orthoskin or dermal sheath, either can work. platelet factory will be a must. call it about 3 essence of cyber and 3.05 essence of bioware. thats 4.55 essence loss, plenty of room left.

an ork with 7(9) strength and bone density 4 will punch for 8P. thats pretty hard, up there with a rifle or shotgun. with a body of 8, he could get a ton of armor and add 13 soak on top of what he can wear. a soak of 30 is easy enough to get, and most things that hit him will just to stun. a 5(7) agility and he could be throwing 16 dice punches before we get to the martial arts bonuses.

if you max agility, strength, and body, you could leave will and intuition at 3, reaction at 3(5). initive would only be 8, but with 3 actions it will do.

you do want to have at least a pistol on you and the skill to use it- not having a gun means your at a big disadvantage.. but being a bruiser means you can do wonders in many situations, especially those where you cant use guns. a shock glove will work on most things, and breaking heads without guns is a valuable talent to have. you may want to buy up a few points of intimidation.

key point here- with bone lacing, being 'unarmed' is about as good as having a sword, but with less reach. the troll with a combat axe will eat you for breakfast, but everyone else will have problems when you tie their broken limbs into knots. if you really want to screw with people, get the heavy weapons skill and bring an LMG to the party! body and strength of 8+ let you use em with greater ease.

evil_bacteria

May 21 2008, 10:06 PM

Wow, I never expected such...contempt to be directed at me for, you know, trying to offer some advice. Silly me.

ArkonC

May 21 2008, 10:14 PM

QUOTE (evil_bacteria @ May 22 2008, 12:06 AM)

Wow, I never expected such...contempt to be directed at me for, you know, trying to offer some advice. Silly me.

Not contempt, just pointing out you didn't give any advice to someone trying to make a character...
And that everyone should be useful most of the time, not just waiting around for their time to act...
I wasn't aware I wasn't allowed to disagree...
If you want to take it as a contemptuous remark, there's little I can do about it...

evil_bacteria

May 21 2008, 10:30 PM

I suppose it's true. I guess my advice was more for GMs than for min/maxers, and in that vein, I can see your point.

I also agree that everyone should be useful most of the time, but, y'know, my little scenario there wasn't exactly an in-depth analysis of the way a game should be run. My point is simply that even if someone's character is less powerful than the rest of the group, it's the GMs job to either A) tell them flat out that they're gonna be left in the dust, or B) make sure everybody gets a piece of the action. If someone hangs back to ensure that nobody tries to attack the team from behind, while the others are having a grand ol' time killing bad guys, do the rearguard a favor and give him someone to fight, too.

Muspellsheimr

May 21 2008, 10:54 PM

If you want cheese, I give you cheese.

12 Soak (Body) + 16/14 Armor
19P Base Unarmed Damage
17 Dice to Attack
3 Initiative Passes
85 Unspent Build Points
1,400 Unspent Nuyen

Ork (20 BP)
Physical Attributes (140 BP)
8 Body
5(7) Agility
3(5) Reaction
7(9) Strength

Special Attributes (65 BP)
6 (4) Magic

Qualities (35 BP)
Adept
Boxing (+1 Unarmed DV)
Boxing (+1 Unarmed DV)
Kung Fu (+1 Unarmed DV)
Muay Thai (+1 Unarmed DV)
Muay Thai (+1 Unarmed DV)
Tae Kwon Do (+1 Unarmed DV)

Adept Powers
Increased Reflexes 2
Critical Strike 4

Bonded Foci (2 BP)
Weapon Foci Force 2, Hardliner Gloves

Skills (26 BP)
Unarmed Combat 6; +2 Martial Arts

Gear (27 BP)
Bone Density Rating 4 (1.2 Essence)
Muscle Augmentation Rating 2 (0.4 Essence)
Muscle Toner Rating 2 (0.4 Essence)

Hardliner Gloves
--Force 2 Weapon Foci

Armor Jacket (8/6)
Forearm Guards (0/1)
Helmet (0/2)
Leg & Arm Casings (1/1)
Shin Guards (0/1)
Vitals Protector (1/1)
Full Body FFBA (6/2)

Daier Mune

May 22 2008, 01:53 AM

QUOTE (Teulisch @ May 21 2008, 05:05 PM)

key point here- with bone lacing, being 'unarmed' is about as good as having a sword, but with less reach. the troll with a combat axe will eat you for breakfast, but everyone else will have problems when you tie their broken limbs into knots. if you really want to screw with people, get the heavy weapons skill and bring an LMG to the party! body and strength of 8+ let you use em with greater ease.

actually, the Clinch manuver can help with unarmed brawlers and thier lack of reach. also: telescoping cyberlimbs.

personally, i'd go for an adept with distance strike, or a cybersam with projectile spurs and retractable cyberskates.

evil_bacteria

May 22 2008, 02:01 AM

All this stuff about martial arts and cyberstuff is from Augmentation, right? Damn, I gotta get me that book.

Daier Mune

May 22 2008, 02:04 AM

martial arts is in Arsenal, the cybertech is in Augmentation. and yeah, you needs both of em, they're good stuff.

CanRay

May 22 2008, 02:42 AM

How do you go about unarmed?

Simple.

Drive. Then you have the biggest projectile around, as well. Slam enemy against nearest brick wall. Back-up. Repeat as neccessary.

Snow_Fox

May 22 2008, 03:11 AM

for your complaint that the gun bunny's are shooting up targets before you get there sounds like a tactical problem. and they're shooting around you, right? you're charging over open ground while people are shooting? it didn't work in 1916 on the Somme and it isn't working there. For hand tohand you're momment comes when you are clsoe to begin with, sneaking up on a target or at a meet. Remember if the gunsles are opening up you're really not in a stealth mode anymore.

samuelbeckett

May 22 2008, 10:35 AM

Of course, if it is cheesy 400 BP melee builds you are after, how about the mighty Norris!

[ Spoiler ]

I ask you, what can't be solved with a roundhouse kick to the head?

Snow_Fox

May 23 2008, 01:11 AM

The trcik is to get close enough to do that before I can pull the trigger on my little MP5 "Familiar."

evil_bacteria

May 23 2008, 01:35 AM

As hilarious as that is, samuel, I gotta call bullshit on the geas. How many GMs would let you get away with such a cheesy move

samuelbeckett

May 23 2008, 07:01 AM

QUOTE (evil_bacteria @ May 23 2008, 02:35 AM)

As hilarious as that is, samuel, I gotta call bullshit on the geas. How many GMs would let you get away with such a cheesy move

Ah, you got me...although I do know some GMs who are partial to cheese

Edit: Actually, I was waiting for someone to call me on the use of Watcher Spirits as my Spirit Bane. At least with the bio-rhythms the GM can apply extra cheese and have me always doing runs during that time slot...

evil_bacteria

May 23 2008, 02:39 PM

I dunno, it might be fun to have half a dozen watchers following you around all day yelling obscenities. Try to be stealthy with that going on!

Stahlseele

May 23 2008, 02:43 PM

i can't believe nobody said it yet:
how to "Handle" unarmed Combat?
Get a pair of Arms . . no matter what kinda pair . .*grins*
if you still wanna do it clobbering time, get a pair of metal-arms and in important situations redline them to break trolls in 2 . . no, clean would be the wrong word . . pieces . .
get custom optimized with bulk mod(that even possible? no books here at work<.<) and add in armor and it will make them harder to stop you from coming close enough too . .