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Stahlseele
May 22 2008, 10:05 AM
a little something i just stumbled upon in another thread.
i thought it would be worth discussing this issue.
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ May 21 2008, 01:31 PM) *
QUOTE
The only thing that actually increases body is the gland, the adept power, a spell and drugs to my knowledge...


why the hell did they even change that? if natural max is 10, then how is a troll supposed to ever hit the cap of 15 body without being an adept or taking drugs like crazy or having some mage beef him up some more, which is incredible unlikely as i believe the target for the mage to be the base attribute?

in SR3 the numbers were rounded up and you still got to the limit in character generation if you really wanted to . .

but if i am understanding this right then in SR4 Trolls get +4 to body, meaning natural 10, exceptional rises that one to 11, gen thingy to 12 and the gland to 13 . . but with the exceptional and gen thingy your maxed augmented body is actually 18 again 12+(12/2=6) . . and you are stuck at body 13 without magic or taking enough drugs to kill you . .

granted there's things that add Dice Pool Modificators to damage resistance tests, but no way to get the body higher than that?

even replacing most of the body with metal bits (limbs) only gives + boxes to damage track . . and because you have to up those stats per limb the average is more likely to get lowered with limbs too . .

so, what do people think about that?
why has that one happened?
did it happen to stop people from tanking up even more?
did it happen to make chem-tech that is resisted with natural body and maybe some dice-pool modifiers from more or less exotic cyber/bio stronger?
to stop people from shape-shifting into dragons and turning them into goo?

discuss! ^^
Fortune
May 22 2008, 10:13 AM
I don't think it is necessarily a given that drugs fall into this category.
DocTaotsu
May 22 2008, 10:26 AM
*coughs*

I guess I'm not understanding it. This poster is sad that they can't max their trolls already horrific body in chargen?

I'd cry but I cried all those tears when they got rid of grounding.
/sarcasm
Fortune
May 22 2008, 10:35 AM
There are more 'boosts' for Body than there are for Intuition. biggrin.gif
Stahlseele
May 22 2008, 10:37 AM
noo . . what i wanna know is why there's way for all other attributes to be more or less maxed out but body does not even come close . . you have 2 things to actually get a higher maximum, both natural and augmented . . but only one bioware that actually gives more body and everything else is magic or drug as far as i can tell . .
you can get a +5 in strength, you can get a +5 in agility i think . . but to get to the body of 13 you have to buy it up to natural maximum including exceptional and genetic and then put in the gland and you're still only about 2 thirds the way there . . and there is nothing that even gives the option of going the whole nine yards O.o

ok, what does indeed raise body and not just give +dice on specific tests?
ArkonC
May 22 2008, 10:40 AM
Well, let's see if it's unique or not, can we max out a maxed out other stat Character?
Str:
Troll 10 + 2 (Exceptional and Optimized = 12(18)
So with gland and muscle replacement or augmentation is 17, can anyone get the last point?
Agi:
Elf 7 + 2 = 9(13)
Replacement or toner would max this one out, next...
Rea:
MBW maxes this one out no matter what...
Body:
See above...
Cha:
Elf 8 + 2 = 10(15)
Does anything actually give Cha bonusses?
Int:
any 6 + 2 = 8(12)
What about Int bonusses?
Log:
any 6 + 2 = 8(12)
Cerebral boost gives +3, what else?
Will:
Dwarf 7 + 2 = 9(13)
Pain editor gives +1 but not permanent and with drawbacks, what else?

(I'd look it up myself, but I'm pretending to work and whipping out SR books will "blow my cover")
Stahlseele
May 22 2008, 10:45 AM
muscle replacement and augmentation does not give + to body. replacement gives + to strength and agility and augmentation only goves + to strength, no body here for your 17 O.o
or did i understand something wrong there?
Fortune
May 22 2008, 10:45 AM
QUOTE (Stahlseele)
ok, what does indeed raise body and not just give +dice on specific tests?


As you said yourself ...

QUOTE (you)
... the gland, the adept power, a spell ...


And arguably drugs. wink.gif biggrin.gif

Attribute Boost also falls under the cap, so technically there are two Adept Powers. biggrin.gif
ArkonC
May 22 2008, 10:47 AM
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ May 22 2008, 12:45 PM) *
muscle replacement and augmentation does not give + to body. replacement gives + to strength and agility and augmentation only goves + to strength, no body here for your 17 O.o

I was talking about Str there...
I brought up the 13 max to begin with... smile.gif
Stahlseele
May 22 2008, 10:49 AM
ah, so i did indeed misunderstand you there . . okay, carry on, i was wrong there, nothing to see here <.< . .
DocTaotsu
May 22 2008, 10:53 AM
There's some nanotech I think that gives you an extra point of intuition.

I guess you really can teach common sense in the future smile.gif
Fortune
May 22 2008, 10:57 AM
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ May 22 2008, 08:37 PM) *
. . what i wanna know is why there's way for all other attributes to be more or less maxed out


The thing is, this just isn't the case.

There is no way that I know of to max out Charisma, Intuition or Willpower. Add in Body and you get half of the Attributes that cannot be maxed, and half that can. I fail to really see the problem, what with all the other bonus modifiers available for Body. I think it is a good thing that Body and Willpower cannot be maxed out in SR4.
Stahlseele
May 22 2008, 01:00 PM
it ain't really a problem . . especially for me, as i am not playing 4th . .
i was just curious O.o
and i did not think that half of the attributes were not max-able o.O
HentaiZonga
May 25 2008, 10:06 AM
QUOTE (Fortune @ May 22 2008, 03:57 AM) *
The thing is, this just isn't the case.

There is no way that I know of to max out Charisma, Intuition or Willpower. Add in Body and you get half of the Attributes that cannot be maxed, and half that can. I fail to really see the problem, what with all the other bonus modifiers available for Body. I think it is a good thing that Body and Willpower cannot be maxed out in SR4.


Body can absolutely be maxed out in SR4. It's called cyberlimbs.

Specifically, four cyberlimbs, a cybertorso, and a cyberskull, all custom-designed to the user's natural maximums (12 Body, if you're a Troll with Exceptional Attribute and Genetic Optimization), and then with +6 Body enhancements to peg at 18. Get the Bulk upgrades, and you even have enough space left over to get +4/+4 Armor per location, for a total of 24/24 buck-naked (and therefore, a rather consistent 42 damage resistance dice until AP enters the picture). Now, you still only have your natural Body for healing, toxin and disease resistance, but that's what bioware is for. And yeah, you can't get the "squishy" Body above 13 (12 natural + 1 from syprathyroid) - but you can apply a reasonably consistent +6 to +10 dice pool bonus on top of that with the Toxin Extractor, Pathogenic Defense and Nephritic Screen. At which point, the only thing you ever have to worry about is Direct Combat spells.
Stahlseele
May 25 2008, 10:46 AM
ok, yes, i did not think of simply rising cyberlimb-body up to the maximum O.o
i won't argue the natural body not being max-able . . that didn't work in SR3 either *g*
HentaiZonga
May 25 2008, 11:29 AM
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ May 25 2008, 03:46 AM) *
ok, yes, i did not think of simply rising cyberlimb-body up to the maximum O.o
i won't argue the natural body not being max-able . . that didn't work in SR3 either *g*


Yep. smile.gif Cyberlimbs are the WIN in SR4. You can pretty much hard-max your pick of Body, Strength or Agility, even if your original "meat" rating was 1. I always hard-max Body for trolls and Agility for elves, just because I can. The Ultimate Troll Tank has High Pain Tolerance 2, Toughness, a Platelet Factory, Trauma Damper, Toxin Extractor 6, Pathogenic Defense 6, Suprathyroid Gland, Genetic Optimization (Body), Genetic Optimization (Strength), four Bulk-Enhanced Cyberlimbs (and a torso, and a skull) all with Body 18, Strength 11, and Agility 5, and 4 points of Armor. You wind up capping out at 43 soak dice buck-naked, always ignore 2 DV from every hit, and never take damage that isn't Stun unless it's a direct combat spell. The awesome part is, you don't even have to buy his physical attributes at chargen - 5/1/5 does you just fine. All you have to spend Attributes on is Reaction, Intuition and Willpower, and you have the ultimate brick-tank. You shrug off Panther rounds and rockets to the face.

Stahlseele
May 25 2008, 12:52 PM
and later on pain editor, so you simply don't even care about stun-damage . . untill it goes up to physical anyway *g*
then you take . . physical . . stun? @.@
HentaiZonga
May 25 2008, 07:36 PM
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ May 25 2008, 05:52 AM) *
and later on pain editor, so you simply don't even care about stun-damage . . untill it goes up to physical anyway *g*
then you take . . physical . . stun? @.@


BAD idea! The Pain Editor shuts off the Trauma Damper. You're far, far better buying 2 to 3 levels of the completely natural High Pain Tolerance Quality, which is the only way to mitigate wound penalties that doesn't weaken your Trauma Damper.

Stahlseele
May 25 2008, 08:23 PM
but trauma dampener only allows you to ignore a certain ammount, if you don'T buy it at the same level that your stun track has boxes or am i understanding something wrong there?
pain editor does not let you feel stun period, no matter how much it is . . you only start to FEEL stun if the stun goes over into physical . .
you don't black out if your stun is full, you just keep going and going and going like the energizer troll on his favourite elf . .
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