So I stumbled across this apparently real life working gun.

Tiny Little Gun

I know nothing about firearms so I was wondering, how effective would this be in Shadowrun? What would the damage code be? Would it be high enough that something like this - a sub-holdout size gun, perhaps fired wirelessly - be useful?

Thanks!

-JKL

The only way that thing is going to kill someone is if they swallow it.

I don't know. If you shot them in the eye ... well, maybe.

oh man, slip that in someone's drink, and trigger it wirelessly. more effective than atropine.

If loaded with Stick'n'Shock, Capsule or Narcoject rounds, what would a reasonable range be?

-JKL

I like how the company claims it can still kill you. Yes, but in the same sense that a steak knife or a scalpel could kill you.

here we see an example of a dwarf-sized holdout pistol in the open palm of a troll. i think this explains the size penalty nicely

I would be very curious how big precisely the bullet is from that, and how fast it's moving. With sufficient speed, such a small bullet could be... bothersome. Perhaps unusually effective against armor (that would be the theory the needle gun is built on). But in regards to actual tissue damage, it's not too much of a threat.

That said, perhaps not a bad purchase if you're worried about windlings returning? Also, you can keep it on your keychain!

It does demonstrate that, no matter how absurd the idea, you can find someone, somewhere, willing to build it.

-Siege

All it needs to be able to do is 2 or 3 inches or so of penetration into flesh and you have some lethality.

There are only two or three places where you could hit someone and have it be lethal. One would be the throat, either the trachea or a major blood vessel. Another might be the eye. The last would be the heart, but the thing would be so low power it wouldn't go through a couple inches of tissue, much if it hit a rib.

As for a damage code, maybe 0P +2AP. The only way you can cause real damage with this thing is a very carefully targeted shot. US cops report people fighting on after being hit by multiple 9mm rounds. What can this thing possibly do with all six?

Well, the spiel does say close range, which for this hand gun I'll assume is real close. Knife type ranges. Anything past a couple of feet and ... Also, I would define lethal and fatal as slightly different. A fatal shot, to me, has a more immediate outcome to it. (Back of the head kind of thing)
At real close rang you have a better chance of aiming at the weak points.

Throat as you said, heart maybe. But better would be the aorta's From behind you have the liver and the kidney's. (You'd need to get both kidneys of course for lethality.) The groin for the femoral artery. The obvioius eye and at that caliber maybe the ear or up the nose.

"Ok, chummer I know it's a piddly little gun, but when I have it shoved this far up your nose how lethal does it have to be?"

It would also lose the bonus to intimidation rolls or even add a penalty.

"Put that thing away before you put somebodies eye out"

I think that everyone is overlooking the most obvious uses for a weapon that size.

When very small people want to kill other very small people they need very small weapons.

I'd make it do 1 physical. It looks pitiful.

Too bad this thing can't be the "Noisy Cricket" for SR.

Cookie for the first to get the reference.

You can glare at someone and do more damage.

The bullets are fired at around 400 fps, which won't even break the skin. The velocity threshold for breaking the skin for BBs is somewhere around 650 fps, and the projectiles fired by this thing will likely have worse ballistics than a simple BB.

Men in Black

Just load it with Ex Ex rounds then you might kill some thing.

You'd have to be insanely lucky to kill anyone with something like that.

If the person in question has any real muscle or fat, it likely won't penetrate that. However, it might be a nice way to start an interrogation.

*Shoots kneecap with Tiny Revolver* "OK, that hurt a little bit." *Pulls out Streetline Special* "We'll move onto this next, then a .32 ACCP. Then a .45 ACCP. Then I stop messing around, and start amputating limbs with a dull, rusty switchblade."

Ok as apparently the first RL shooter to see this drek. I can only say:
What the ^{$%^&*$%#@!#$%&^*!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!}
I think that says enough but dear goddess no one in or out of his right mind should go near this thing. It says it fires a small bullet but there's virtually no barrell, no range and while the slug might dribble out of the weapon(If we can call this thing a weapon) how much of a charge can the bullet carry? recoil ? HAH! ok there won't be any but how are you going to brace it to aim?

I have a .25 Barretta Bobcat with a 2 inch barrell and even with my small hand my pinky finger curls under the grip, not above it. This nonsense I doubt you could curl 1 finger around it.

After an incident this winter I replaced the .25 with a S&W .38 with a 2 inch barrell and extended J-frame for my business carry. If I felt the .25 was inadequate for safety, a .25 with a barrel longer than the length of this joke's entire body, what the lfock is this joke going to do?

This thing is only a hazard to anyone stupid enough to bring it along.
1) this just might set off a sniffer and you're explaining it to the police. ok they will probably laugh at you, but now you're on their radar.
2) look at the trigger in the pic. I mean really look at it.There's a spur sticking out of the "trigger guard" that is the real trigger, but it also means there's nothing to cover the true trigger AND so if you have this in your pocket, it just might go off from moving.

*snicker*

Well said, Fox.

-Siege

And check the price tag.

I have trouble believing this gun can break the skin, let alone kill someone. I think my nerf gun is more dangerous.

What would compel you to say that?

I chalked it up to annoyed impulse.

-Siege

The fact that this gun isn't considered a weapon in Canada made me doubt any possible effectiveness but knowing nothing about firearms, I was still interested in hearing from the local experts. Thanks for the input.

The quickie answer is:

No, it's not dangerous. It's not practical and isn't good for much more than a collector's oddity.

-Siege

Cookie for Emperor Tippy.

*Alex goes to off wonder why the board doesn't have the cookie gifs anymore.*

...so while they're busy busting a gut over your teensy little six shooter, you pull out the EXEX loaded Warhawk with the other hand and shoot them in the face.

Becasue no one else noted RL experience with weapons. Just running on what they could see and a strong does of common sense.
For example




I was pointing out my info came from practical experience, not just common sense observation.
Raygun is the aknowledged uber expert on firearms here.

It was made for the same reason that those 12 foot long katanas you see in some Japanese museums were made.

Just because they can.



-karma

If you say so. I am pretty sure that at least three of the dumpshockers that posted before you have had firearms experience.

Raygun is an acknowledged expert here, but he hasn't been around in quite some time. There are though, quite a few other people that have extensive experience with firearms that are active posters. Some, I am willing to bet, have even more practical experience than yourself. They just don't need to advertise that experience every second or third post.

Nor do they need to belittle someone else's credentials when they're brought up.

True. Can you show me exactly where you think I did that?

We've derailed this thread enough. Please check your PM box.

Uh huh!

In my defense, I couldn't get the companies website up to actually find out how well this thing fired.

Out of interest, does anybody have a size comparison between this and the old Derringer hold out pistol?

Please note that derringer is a term for a breech loaded pocket pistol. The Swissminigun is a revolver. As one can note when looking down the list that the next in volume is the Stinger Pen Pistol, followed by the WSP deringer, and then by the .22 short.

The explosive force of the 2.34mm is less than 0.97 joules which is less than most airguns.[1] In comparison the .22 short has an explosive force of 60J with a load of 29 gr (1.9 g) RN.[2]

• Manufacturer: SwissMiniGun
• Model: C1ST
• Caliber: 2.34mm
• Capacity: 6
• Type: revolver
• Action: DA
• Length: 2.20"
• Height: 1.40"
• Width: 0.40"
• Weight: 0.70oz
• Volume: 1.23

• Manufacturer: Stinger Mfg Corp
• Model: Stinger Pen Pistol
• Caliber: .22LR
• Capacity: 1
• Type: single shot Pen
• Action: SA
• Length: 5.60"
• Height: 0.62"
• Width: 0.62"
• Weight: 5.00oz
• Volume: 2.15

• Manufacturer: Downsizer
• Model: WSP
• Caliber: .45ACP
• Capacity: 1
• Type: derringer
• Action: DAO
• Length: 3.25"
• Height: 2.25"
• Width: 0.90"
• Weight: 11.00oz
• Volume: 6.58

• Manufacturer: NAA
• Model: .22 short
• Caliber: .22 short
• Capacity: 5
• Type: revolver
• Action: SA
• Length: 3.63"
• Height: 2.38"
• Width: 0.81"
• Weight: 4.00oz
• Volume: 7.00

[3]

References
1. http://www.swissminigun.com/ammunition.html
2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.22_Short
3. http://www.smallestguns.com/

Miniaturising firearms is the first step towards the oral/eye gun.

and curtesy of a lot of American riverboat gambler and western type movies and TV shows, just about the smallest pistol that many of us here could picture easily I believe.

forsize comparrison of a derringer-which has become a generic term for what was one a particular brand, think something marginally smaller than your hand inlength, so you can hide it. Remember this was a holdo ut surprise, not a first choice for a fight. For grip think one finger on the trigger. two more around the grip and the last finger hanging in air or under the grip. That's the bar minimum grip needed to hold. Less, like the above joke, and you really can't hold it straight without having to concentrate more than you should have to. heck of a distraction.

Yeah this thing does not have a intimidation factor, it probably has a negative intimidation factor. No one is going to take it seriously when aimed at them "That the best you got cabron??" or"Geez man, if we're gonna fight let me lend you something a little bigger. like the tooth pick from my club sandwich."

Tying this more directly back into SR, did this remind anybody else of the bracelet gun from NAGRL? The (lack of) barrel length looks pretty similar. The absence of any practicality of either seems about the same.

I'd rather use the bracelet gun. strapped on your arm it's easier to aim than this thing, and far less likely to go off in your pocket or purse.

And the knowledge that you know some idiot is going to try and use it, either shooting off their hand, or burning their wrist something fierce!

Which, of course, might be useful against Shadowrunners, as they roll around on the ground, laughing their hoops off.

How small could you realistically (for Shadowrun) make a Narcoject dart gun?

It could be triggered by wireless or skinlink to avoid accidental discharge, made of plastic to avoid MAD detectors and uses no bullets so it avoids chemsniffers.

Maybe something with a range of 1/2/3/5 (S/M/L/E)?

Edit:
Since Shadowrun guns don't need triggers (being fired wirelessly or by skinlink instead) and aiming can be done via smartlink, would there be any benefit to making a holdout/light pistol that was pen/cane/umbrella/wand shaped instead of a traditional shape?

I know, just make the bullets release nanites of doom into the target which make him die from the inside.

And here is the blueprint for the Shadowrun "Noisy Cricket" - without the insane recoil.

didn't that kinda nannies just show up in some other thread around here somewhere?
problem is that you can't really do that in SR . . you either have bullets, capsuöes or darts, but no bullets that can be filled with the icky as far as i know . .

Smurfy Harry Calahan needs a gun of sufficiently small size for him to wield but still large enough to be the most powerful handgun in smurfdom.


"Go ahead, Punk, Smurf my day"


And Windlings need tiny guns, too.