Hi folks,

One of the other players asked me last game if the Clearsight soft applied to drones making sensor tests for targeting. There are so many drone threads on here that my search-fu is overwhelmed and I haven't found anything in the errata, FAQ or chat logs.

Logic says the clearsight 'soft should have some effect on sensor targeting, at least when the drone is operating autonomously. However the rules don't always agree with logic.

Can anyone point me to an official, or at least, dev response?

If not, what's the general opinion?

clearsight adds to sensor tests.

active targeting requires you to make a sensor test.

where's the confusion, exactly?

It seemed to break the normal stat+skill mechanic since you would wind up rolling Sensor + Pilot + Clearsight. Other autosofts (defense, targeting, maneuver, ECW) add a "skill" to supplement the drone's "attribute" in the dice pool so you roll Pilot+Maneuver or Sensor+Targeting.

This one seems to act different and different stuff tends to be errated (errataed?).

His vehicle (pilot2: sensor:2) has clearsight2 soft and vision enhancement:3 on the cameras. By our take, the vehicle gets 2+2+2+3=9 dice (-visual condition modifiers) for sensor tests, including active targeting that tends to yield 2-3 bonus dice on the gunnery test. When the visual conditions are drek, he falls back to radar (per Arsenal's standard sensor load) for 2+2+2=6 dice sensor tests.

Here's the thing, a players perception/intuition has no bearing what so ever on how he shoots.

Neither does a drones, so Vision Enhancements, and Clearsight will not add to their targeting.

So you can't use vision enhancements to offset vision penalties.

You are most correct, but some here "choose" to blend the two systems ie to get more munchkin dice.

WMS

I wouldn't blame it all on munchkin-ness... Give some credit to mixed up sensor rules.

Yeah?

Here's the RAW as I understand my 1st printing, GenCon edition book

Sensory modifications, such as vision enhancement or audio enhancement, act as a bonus to perception tests. (p324)
A "perception test" for a drone is a sensor test. p.162
The default sensor test is Pilot+Sensor. p.162
Clearsight autosoft adds its rating to sensor tests p.239
Therefore a drone's "perception test", which is sensor test, is Pilot+Sensor+Clearsight+ (sense) enhancement - condition modifiers


Active Targeting requires a sensor test p.162
By above, a drone using cameras for the sensor lock is Pilot+Sensor+Clearsight+ vision enhancement - condition modifiers

To then shoot at the locked target they roll Sensor+Targeting+(successes from active targeting) - condition modifiers p.162

What do you mean mixed up sensor rules, they are as clear as lead and concrete. And that is a feature not a flaw.

WMS

I understand your logic, but you're assuming that an active targetting test is a perception test rather than just a sensors check. I don't have the book in front of me at the moment, but based on the thread so far, there certainly isn't agreement on that point.

With a sweep of his...

Hat

Jaid has been precise. Clearsight enhances sensor tests made by the drone pilot, active targeting calls for a sensor test. Absolutely no room for interpretation.

Except my Force 6 Machine Sprite that now has 18 dice for targeting...
Or more precisely any Machine Sprite over Rating 6 (w/ Clearsight and Targeting) has 3 x its Rating for Targeting.

I'm sure my GM would hate you for giving me this idea.

Or since pilots don't use sensors for targeting do they not get clearsight when targeting?

Drones can make both Perception Tests and Sensor Tests. Otherwise the wouldn't even notice somebody right in front of them.

I think here's the part thats being skipped...

Autosofts are only for Pilots/Agents/Sprites

Clearsight is the perception skill for drones
Riggers use Perception.

You don't use Targeting autosoft when you shoot as a rigger, you use Gunnery.

And since Pilots shooting is a Pilot + Targeting test, there is no sensor in that.

Right, but I'm discussing drone operation.



That's not correct. Per BBB p.162, drones attack using Sensor+Targeting. I have no idea why "sensor" is used in place of "Agility" instead of Pilot, Response, or Device Rating. Now this isn't a "Sensor Test", it is a test that happens to use Sensor, so I agree that clearsight and vision enhancement wouldn't apply any more for a drone than a sam.

But you've also missed the "active targeting" stage. Drones, AFAIK, must use active targeting to identify a target to shoot while riggers have the option of passive targeting. IMO "active targeting" is the drone identifying the target, applying a bounding box and an aim point that leads the target an appropriate amount. If the drone can't identify the target enough to choose an aim point, it won't shoot. "Passive targeting" is the rigger shooting on the fly using instinct and training with no special computer assist.

For a drone to shoot someone/thing the action sequence is:

1. take an action to get sensor lock (active targeting). This is, by RAW, a Sensor Test. (Pilot+Sensor+modifiers for clearsight-free drones, Pilot+Sensor+Clearsight+modifiers for those with it) The successes from the Sensor Test apply as a bonus when shooting at said target until the target manages to hide. (and possibly if the drone acquires lock on another target even though I don't see any limitations to the number of sensor locks a drone can maintain).

2. Shoot at the target. This is a Sensor+Targeting test modified by range, environmental conditions etc, and the bonus dice from active targeting.


So a doberman (pilot3/sensor3) with rating 3 targeting and clearsight softs along with vision enhancement3 and smartlink on its camera firing against a person at medium range some lingering smoke would

1. Acquire sensor lock Pilot3+sensor3+clearsight3+visionenhancement3 -2 smoke -3 signature = 7 dice ~2 successes

2. Shoot at the target Sensor3+Targeting3 +2smartlink +2 sensor lock -1 range -2 smoke =7 dice ~2 successes

The mechanics for active targeting provide a dp bonus equal to the hits of the sensor test.

The sensor test is rolled using Sensor+Pilot (+Clearsight), modified by the signature table only. Most relevant targets have a -3 mod, and the test can be opposed. Rating 6 sprites configured for exactly this purpose will indeed have a base DP of 18 on a drone with sensor 6.

Riggers are likely to use Pilots with Sensor 6 + Pilot 5 (effective rating) + Clearsight 4 = 15 dice, but have a WAY higher load of programs. (The real disadvantage is not that one hit less, but the need to have both upgraded Sensor and upgraded Response in place. Once you have that, you are better off using a sprite to augment rather than replace the pilot. IMO.)

So lets assume acquisition boni of +5 for the specialised Sprite and +4 for the drone Pilot.

The Pilot will shoot rolling Pilot+Targeting+4, likely 5+4+4=13, the sprite Rating+Targeting+5, here 6+6+5=17. Pretty tame compared to other pools.


How does the rigger do? The cursed FAQ gives us Response+Gunnery as base; Gunnery is a vehicle skill, smartlinks are useable wireless. Response 5 + Gunnery 5 (ballistic +2) + Vehicle Control Rig 2 + Smartlink 2 = 16 before we even started with the aquisition bonus. TMs get to exploit the mechanic for Command via Support Operation services from a sprite of their choice. Note that sensor tests should benefit from both Attention Coprocessors and Reception Enhancers, and that the Coprocessors are very affordable.

Why do you say "only" modified by the signature table? I see on p.162 that signature modifies the Sensor Test but I see no reason that full dark, concealment, cover, noise, chaff, smoke, etc would have zero impact on a Sensor Test.

I say that because no other mods do apply. The sensor rules are for the overall sensor rating. They only have one mod regarding what you are trying to detect.

That said, there is so far somewhat of a mess with sensor tech, because you can freely choose what makes up your sensor package. Not all combinations provide consistency, as sometimes one sensor would be way better than the overall sensor rating, and sometimes not even one would be of use.

That is one of the "features/perks" of sensor targeting, darkness, fog etc do not affect sensor targeting. Yes Sensor targeting does not have piles of dice to throw to hit/perceive the target but again run correctly and properly one does not need such.

FYI drone/pilot sensor targeting was never intended to be as good a character targeting the target.

WMS

Also note that this is the upper end (or at least close to it). Stock sensors operated by Pilots without Clearsight are worthless for detection:

Pilot 3 + Sensor 1 - Detection:Metahuman/Drone/Vehicle 3 = DP of 1. You can get it to 4 by software, yay.

Perhaps you should read the Errata too

Perhaps I should have.

My group is using Pilot+Sensor+Clearsight despite the errata, as it gives some minimal sensor pool to everyday vehicles.