So I had a new group of players join up, and one of them wants to play a blind mage, He has a spirit pact with a beast spirit that inhabits his pet wolf. Not wanting to be a party pooper I allow it. So far we havn't needed him to cast any spells. This begs the question. If a mage is born blind, does he need to see his targets, or can he use astral perception to locate them. If still yes, then can the spirit pact do the job for him?

Astral Perception has always been a viable method for spell targeting (at least in SR4), as is Astral Projection, but in regards to Projection, and a lesser extend Perception, you must remember your spells can only affect subjects on the same plane as you.

This means if you are projecting, you can only use Mana spells, and can only target other Astral/Perceiving/Dual Natured creatures. If you are Perceiving, you can use Mana & Physical spells, but can only target Physical/Perceiving/Dual Natured creatures.

it says somewhere in the book that astral perception is a psychic sense, not linked to any of the other five senses; so a blind mage can see and a deaf mage can hear. i'm not clear on what the rules are for targeting mundanes from astral are, but it should be possible.

In 3rd ed you could blast mundanes on the astral and watch as they drop. In 4th ed they need to be astrally perceiving to nail them.... that or manifest. Hum..... gives me an idea....

A Projecting Magician can make him/herself visible/audible on the Physical plane, but cannot manifest, and therefor cannot affect anything only active on the Physical. To do so would require the Manifestation Spirit Power.

Well touch range spells would also work (at least in my world, you simply need to touch them to have effect if it's touch range).

But I believe you only have to definitely percieve them. So sound wouldn't count, becuase you can't manabolt "that sound over there, no a little to the right." But if you were a mystic adept, with... which is it, ultrasound I think the power is, then I would allow a character to target using that.

(I actually had a blind phys add martial arts fighter. Took almost no penalties.)

That's not quite what it says, though. See page 173:

So, when perceiving, you can target pretty much anything. Even if you can't see it physically, if you can see it astrally, you can target it with an appropriate spell.

if you're astrally perceiving and you cast an AoE mana spell, does it hit everyone in the blast radius, regardless of what plane they're on?

No, you have to chose on which plane the spell is taking effect. An astral perceiving character (read: somebody who is now dual-active) has to decide if his Area of Effect Mana Spell either targets beings on the astral plane, or on the material plane. Except for some possible exceptions, spells are never dual-active themselves.

According to the main book, pg. 173 (emphasis mine):



So you need to choose which "side" your spell detonates on. That has advantages, too, though. For example, if your teammates are in a swirling melee with a pack of ghouls, you can cast a manaball onto astral space, and the area-effect spell will only hurt the dual-natured ghouls.

I don't know about the astrally perceiving part (and I want to know because it makes a big difference if a caster can just astrally perceive if he is in total darkness.)

But on the second part my understanding is that you have to see someone (or be touching them) to effect someone with a combat spell (non indirect), even if it is an area effect.

Something about syncing aura's.

Just an arm would be enough (but cover bonus apply).

So if a Mr. Suit has four goons around his desk and you give them a Manaball but Mr. Suit is able to dive under his desk before you get the spell off then the goons take it and he is immune to the Manaball until he shows himself or you move to see him.

But there is always the Indirect Elemental spells.

You don't need to see them to Roast them with a Fireball.

I'm afraid it's not as clear as that. "Either" can be used inclusively or exclusively. It's an ambiguous word. One example where they used "either or" inclusively in SR4 is where they said that you can use full defense gymnastics dodge against "either" ranged or melee, which means you can do it against both, at least according to FrankTrollman, who was there and would know what they meant. So the language doesn't automatically resolve it like you say. I don't think you're necessarily wrong, I just wanted to point out that yours is not the only answer.

I think that's an overgenerous interpretation. It would make a mockery of the vision modifiers affecting spellcasting, for a start, and it says you can cast on "targets in" either world: non-Awakened beings that aren't *in* but whose auras are visible from the Astral wouldn't, therefore, qualify.

I disagree with your arguments on two points.

First, the phrasing could mean that you can use gymnastics to dodge gunfire or melee, but not both at the same time.

Second, FrankTrollman was there as I understand it, but he has also demonstrated a willingness to interpret rules to match his own opinions, not to mention stating those opinions as facts even in blatant opposition to the written rules, so I wouldn't necessarily consider him a reliable source. (No offense intended to you personally, Frank, I'm just describing your style; I might be wrong about it, but this is what I've seen thus far.)

Making yourself visible/audible is called manifesting. There is also no such thing as a Manifestation Spirit Power. Any astral form can do that by default.

What he was aiming for was Materialization.

As for Astral perception... let's you see both worlds, not just Physical or Astral.

With regards to dual natured beings like ghouls (from a post earlier in the thread)... They are *ACTIVE* on both worlds. As if you use Astral Perception, you can fire off your spell to only take effect on the Astral. Since your team ostensibly *ISN'T* active on the Astral, you can do this, the spell misses your team (they are active on the Physical and only visible on the Astral) but the Ghouls are toasted because they are active on the Astral (in addition to the Physical).

Using Astral Perception to target someone mundane / not on the Astral is the same as specifically stating you are designating the spell to affect the Physical Plane. You are (while astral perceiving) designating your target plane by virtue of the target(s) you are choosing.

I was fully aware of that, but since I am in jerk mode today, I felt compelled to do what I did.

If you are Astrally Percieving vision mod's still apply. If there is something that impedes normal vision it is impeded on the Astral. Smoke shows up as a shadow on the Astral. Material objects are opaque as well is mirrored glass. If you cannot see through it on the mundane physical plane you cannot see through it on the Astral.
As Synner has stated multiple times in multiple threads vision mods stack when spell casting.

So if Mr Suit dives under cover of a desk and you throw a Manaball and the only people you 'see' are Goons 1-4 then goons 1-4 are the only ones affected with a Direct Combat spell.

In astral perception glass windows are opaque as well if I remember correctly.

Yes. You can't see through glass in the astral anymore in SR 4 (if you ever could, anyway).

My personal theory is that mana on the physical plane travels along (or like) photons.

Wait, wait, wait, so by that I can perceive astrally, cast a Mana Static on the Astral, then watch as my Adept allies walk into the area and kick ass on the dual-natured beings?

Or is it the Mana Static is always cast on the Astral, even if I do not percieve there at the time?

No, the spell is either cast on one side or the other. It just so happens that the effect of the spell (creation of a background count) is unique in that it bleeds over to affect both sides.

So, if I read this correctly:

A blind mage has no physical sight.

While astrally percieving, the mage can target things on either the physical OR the atral plane (exclusive or). He can cast either physical or mana spells.

While astrally projecting, the mage can target things on the astral plane only. He can cast mana spells only.

Is that correct?

Pretty much. Astrally perceiving gives you the best of both worlds, but also makes you vulnerable to both.

Pretty much. Astrally perceiving gives you the best of both worlds, but also makes you vulnerable to both.

Yes, but remember that astrally perceiving characters and dual natured beings are on the astral plane.

A mage who can turn spirits into Great Form spirits could order a spirit to Imbue him with the Materialization power, if the spirit had Materialization and Imbue. This opens up a large set of possible tactics.

Ultrasound, echolocation and the like don't work for spell targeting. You have to see the target, knowing where they are isn't enough. What ultrasound does is interpret sound into visuals, it is not sight and that is what you need according to SR4 Magical theory. And since blind people can actually see in/on the astal plane, Astral Sight or Projection do work...
This has been discussed at length in some old thread if you feel brave enough to look for it...

Would work fine for the direct example given of a phys ad though. Since the phys ad was most likely punching, stabbing, or shooting folks. However for spell targeting you are correct.