The Idiots Guide to the Matrix thread needs to be edited down to something readable. I am trying to incorporate deckers into my game that aren't npc's and am having a hard time trying to understand all the rules. Is there a faq or another thread that has a step by step guide to decking. I find the layout in the BBB to be confusing.
Thanks
Thanos
Full Version: Matrix Help!
The Idiot's Guide thread has grown somewhat since its inception and can be hard to follow because we're not only doing sample runs with explanations but also fielding people's (and our own) doubts and questions as we go along. That being said a read through the first 4-5 pages includes a simple no frills datasteal run (my own posts and satcong's).
It would help to know what you're having difficulty with and how much of the rules you are comfortable with before commenting further.
However I will say that from a GM's point of view the Matrix is exceptionally simple to run. All you really need to know is that every Host has a Security Value and an ACIFS rating (ie. Orange 9-8/13/10/10/10) and that almost everything a decker can possibly do is a System Operation - which is simply an Opposed Test rolled against one of the ACIFS subsystems with a negative modifier equal to the appropriate program (without the appropriate program a decker rolls against the unmodified subsystem rating). .
The charts on pages 162 and 163 of the Matrix sb are the ideal crib sheets for this - they list all the possible Tests, the relevant ACIFS subsystem and the program that can be used to modify the target. Every time a decker makes a System Operation Test, the host Opposes it rolling its Security Value against the decker's Detection Factor. As in any standard Opposed Test, the host's successes are subtracted from the decker's to get the final result.
Independent of this result (whether the decker succeeded or failed the Test) all the successes the host rolls are registered by the GM. These make up the decker's Security Tally. When the Security Tally reaches certain levels (called Steps) IC is triggered in response. Different IC do different things and must be dealt with on a case by case basis.
It would help to know what you're having difficulty with and how much of the rules you are comfortable with before commenting further.
However I will say that from a GM's point of view the Matrix is exceptionally simple to run. All you really need to know is that every Host has a Security Value and an ACIFS rating (ie. Orange 9-8/13/10/10/10) and that almost everything a decker can possibly do is a System Operation - which is simply an Opposed Test rolled against one of the ACIFS subsystems with a negative modifier equal to the appropriate program (without the appropriate program a decker rolls against the unmodified subsystem rating). .
The charts on pages 162 and 163 of the Matrix sb are the ideal crib sheets for this - they list all the possible Tests, the relevant ACIFS subsystem and the program that can be used to modify the target. Every time a decker makes a System Operation Test, the host Opposes it rolling its Security Value against the decker's Detection Factor. As in any standard Opposed Test, the host's successes are subtracted from the decker's to get the final result.
Independent of this result (whether the decker succeeded or failed the Test) all the successes the host rolls are registered by the GM. These make up the decker's Security Tally. When the Security Tally reaches certain levels (called Steps) IC is triggered in response. Different IC do different things and must be dealt with on a case by case basis.
| QUOTE |
| every Host has a Security Value and an ACIFS rating (ie. Orange 9-8/13/10/10/10) and that almost everything a decker can possibly do is a System Operation - which is simply an Opposed Test rolled against one of the ACIFS subsystems with a negative modifier equal to the appropriate program (without the appropriate program a decker rolls against the unmodified subsystem rating). . |
Yes. I understood that. What I'm having a problem with is when to do what. I'll read your posts in the Idiots Guide and see if this gets any clearer. However I still stand by my comment that the Matrix rules in the BBB are layed out in a very confusing manner. At least for me.
Thanks
Thanos
Not just for you, 14/15 pages is TOO much for a simple walkthroug and/or faq.
I think a nice abridged article on someone's personal site would be far more helpful to understand the current ruleset.
That having been said. As a person with a computer science degere and lots of experience in networking, I find it much better to ignore the Matrix rules, which are horribly out of date, and insanely inaccurate now, let alone 60 years from now; and just kind of say okay, you wanna do what? Okay done, and/or leave out of the Matrix entirely.
If you do not have enough experience with modern technology to know/care, and like the rules, by all means use them. But I will warn you strongly if you are knowledge about how computers/the web work, you will be sorely dissapointed by the Matrix rules. Especially the hardware ones and their costs. The Deck parts show some of the systems flaws better than any other item for sale in the SR world.
I think a nice abridged article on someone's personal site would be far more helpful to understand the current ruleset.
That having been said. As a person with a computer science degere and lots of experience in networking, I find it much better to ignore the Matrix rules, which are horribly out of date, and insanely inaccurate now, let alone 60 years from now; and just kind of say okay, you wanna do what? Okay done, and/or leave out of the Matrix entirely.
If you do not have enough experience with modern technology to know/care, and like the rules, by all means use them. But I will warn you strongly if you are knowledge about how computers/the web work, you will be sorely dissapointed by the Matrix rules. Especially the hardware ones and their costs. The Deck parts show some of the systems flaws better than any other item for sale in the SR world.
Synner and I have discussed a pared-down version of The Idiots Guide to the Matrix for a future issue of the Shadowrun Supplemental; I have some interesting ideas as to how it will be presented, and hope that the format will make it a bit more clear than the thread.
Do you also plan to fix the memory, cost, and workings of the decks along with the out-dated matrix rules too?
I am not saying they were done poorly, but really, they are outdated, and horribly inaccurate given modern computing standards.
EDIT: That includes connections, the way RTGs/LTGs interact...Corpate LTGs...all sorts of stuff. Oh making a lot of it clearer would be beneficial too. The book really upon a strict reading inticates someone with a computer use of 1 can't even log in legally to servers at work...etc
I am not saying they were done poorly, but really, they are outdated, and horribly inaccurate given modern computing standards.
EDIT: That includes connections, the way RTGs/LTGs interact...Corpate LTGs...all sorts of stuff. Oh making a lot of it clearer would be beneficial too. The book really upon a strict reading inticates someone with a computer use of 1 can't even log in legally to servers at work...etc
You should be addressing such concerns to the Shadowrun Line Developer., not me. You can reach him at info at shadowrunrpg.com
On the other hand, since comparisons between megabytes and Megapulses were intentionally left undefined and vague, they might not be as out of whack as you might think. It's a different scale entirely, so abstract comparisons to modern-day computing standards (like "standard" PCs these days coming with 80 gig hard drives and 512+ megs of RAM) really don't apply.
Did I even once mention that as my basis of comparison?
My basis is simply how many programs I can keep on my deck...100k for a program I shoulda written myself in a few days, at MOST a few weeks of which I can have about 4 running at any given time!?
HELL no...That is completely ridiculous especially as hackers write the smallest, best, and cleanest code using the highest level languages available, I assure you they could have dozens or MORE programs running simultaneously for simply mundane tasks...Only for things such as decryption would it be a mildly limiting factor, which I will not argue eats RAM, and CPU time, which it does, however locate, read/write, attack, and about 90% of the others are rediculous.
The sheer cost for a measely 512MP of Active is rediculous, and the fact that the room cost is so obscenely high for those simple and small parts it just doesn't make sense... Doube the Active space for storage? please...
I have about a billion other gripes about accuracy. this is as I said earlier, why I stay out of the matrix. I played 1 decker, best char I ever made for SR...and I will not play one again using those rules. Until I see an overhaul or write my own house rules for decking/computing I am out. If you like the system, fine. I am merely saying it isn't accurate, which is usually something about a dozen people here get behind and say "We like accuracy." In the case of computing, this is something I have a BS in and a lifetime of vested interest. I can make a dozen computers in 2 hours, I can build a dream machine for about 600 bucks...I know computers, especially hardware, and I feel more than safe saying the SR system is not accurate.
My basis is simply how many programs I can keep on my deck...100k for a program I shoulda written myself in a few days, at MOST a few weeks of which I can have about 4 running at any given time!?
HELL no...That is completely ridiculous especially as hackers write the smallest, best, and cleanest code using the highest level languages available, I assure you they could have dozens or MORE programs running simultaneously for simply mundane tasks...Only for things such as decryption would it be a mildly limiting factor, which I will not argue eats RAM, and CPU time, which it does, however locate, read/write, attack, and about 90% of the others are rediculous.
The sheer cost for a measely 512MP of Active is rediculous, and the fact that the room cost is so obscenely high for those simple and small parts it just doesn't make sense... Doube the Active space for storage? please...
I have about a billion other gripes about accuracy. this is as I said earlier, why I stay out of the matrix. I played 1 decker, best char I ever made for SR...and I will not play one again using those rules. Until I see an overhaul or write my own house rules for decking/computing I am out. If you like the system, fine. I am merely saying it isn't accurate, which is usually something about a dozen people here get behind and say "We like accuracy." In the case of computing, this is something I have a BS in and a lifetime of vested interest. I can make a dozen computers in 2 hours, I can build a dream machine for about 600 bucks...I know computers, especially hardware, and I feel more than safe saying the SR system is not accurate.
Hey hey, those hackers aren't writing programs that fly through fucking virtual reality in not the internet but the freakin' matrix and then kill people or blow stuff up. That's too cool to multi-task.
Well, yes. Comparing Shadowrun's computers and Matrix to real life is pointless, because they're entirely different and meant to be that way.
Wanting Shadowrun's computers and Matrix to be more like real life, that's the domain of house rules.
Wanting Shadowrun's computers and Matrix to be more like real life, that's the domain of house rules.
Actually, in that regard I agree with you. I do agree that a number of the prices for creating your own hardware are quite excessive. Software, too, for some of the things.
I also possess a BSci in computer science, though I haven't gone into networking as you have (the job market wasn't quite as friendly to me
). And I do agree that, realism-wise, the Matrix rules as written don't approach the factual structure and logic which govern computing in the modern era. What, precisely, would you replace it with?
Basically, I'm seeing a great deal of "this system sucks" without much in the way of proposed replacement. Within the SR system, if you eliminate all but the decryption (which, from your previous posts, you debate most eloquently is the only thing which should take CPU time), then decking -- one of the primary elements of the cyberpunk genre -- becomes little more than a single test. If you have alternative rules which might prevent the relegation of an entire archetype to obsolescence and still meet your demands for accuracy, then by all means present them.
I completely respect your experience and your devotion to your profession. It's a devotion which, to some degree, I share. If you've read my posts on this board, you know that I've often rallied against how quickly mages seem to develop their kick-ass techniques while deckers get screwed on time and Karma (having to buy half a dozen knowledge skills for specific programming tasks, where mages get by on fairly basic skills). I guess I'm just looking for something more than "I feel more than safe saying the SR system is not accurate".
Help us build something better.
I also possess a BSci in computer science, though I haven't gone into networking as you have (the job market wasn't quite as friendly to me
). And I do agree that, realism-wise, the Matrix rules as written don't approach the factual structure and logic which govern computing in the modern era. What, precisely, would you replace it with?Basically, I'm seeing a great deal of "this system sucks" without much in the way of proposed replacement. Within the SR system, if you eliminate all but the decryption (which, from your previous posts, you debate most eloquently is the only thing which should take CPU time), then decking -- one of the primary elements of the cyberpunk genre -- becomes little more than a single test. If you have alternative rules which might prevent the relegation of an entire archetype to obsolescence and still meet your demands for accuracy, then by all means present them.
I completely respect your experience and your devotion to your profession. It's a devotion which, to some degree, I share. If you've read my posts on this board, you know that I've often rallied against how quickly mages seem to develop their kick-ass techniques while deckers get screwed on time and Karma (having to buy half a dozen knowledge skills for specific programming tasks, where mages get by on fairly basic skills). I guess I'm just looking for something more than "I feel more than safe saying the SR system is not accurate".
Help us build something better.
| QUOTE (Dende) |
| Not just for you, 14/15 pages is TOO much for a simple walkthroug and/or faq. |
I suggest you give it a read anyway. The IGTTM thread is not a 14/15 page walkthrough and it is not hard to follow if you identify people who are involved in the sample runs (satcong and I, and now Kukukami and I) and follow their posts. The "problem" is that the IGTTM thread attempt to come up with (unofficial) answers to a number of different FAQs and doubts interspersed with the two actual play by play runs as those doubts come up in practice. I've since added some "identifiers" to the relevant posts.
As Adam has mentioned above, we have discussed making the IGTTM sample runs (rather than the FAQ aspect) into TSS articles and I hope to have the first one prepped to send to him soon.
Regarding the rest of the post I'd like to argue that Dende is missing one important element (if not the most important) of the Matrix, one which is way beyond a current decker/hacker's experience, which has nothing to do with how the program functions or how tight the code, and which ultimately justifies any value the designers chose to put on the size of programs - ASIST technology and all the sensory input coding that goes with every single piece of software represented in the Matrix, even if it is simple UMSII.
Even if someone were to go to the trouble to calculate an equivalence between Mb and MPs, and then analyze program sizes based on that (still mostly impossible since it is impossible to know how many variables you'd have to include in any program to match a 2063 host's/mainframe's capacity to protect itself), there is still absolutely no way to derive values for the ASIST/interactive representation aspect of each program.
Furthermore, despite Dende's negative take on the plausibility of the Matrix system, I've talked to at least one CompSci alumni who says that the SR Matrix system is actually pretty close to developments in modern User-based systems (rather than Network Code-based systems), that in fact the Matrix is closer to an Internet structure than what SR would have you believe and in many ways similar to technology being developed not for traditional computer network management but for interactive/digital television and online computer games.
As he put it, "a Persona seems to be simply a cross between a current day operating system and a web browser - in most respects it is a mobile "Windows platform" which interfaces with other systems like a browser does a website and off which you run programs. Like a browser it logs on to a particular address/coordinates, allows access to the ASIST feed information at those coordinates and allows you to then manipulate the information "on site" with the programs that you have "Active" in your "mobile operating system" rather than using the Host's space."
However this all means that the underlying Matrix protocols are highly biased towards program use and are based on the understanding that at the speeds the Matrix operates at, most deckers/hackers would not have the skill to affect most Host coding with on the fly hacking and programming, and so would resort to simply running pre-made programs (with their ASIST loads).
The "run time" this takes is impossible to judge since in fact several levels of processing are happening every time you do anything (ie. you give your orders by DNI; this is translated to ASIST protocols; run by your deck, transmitted to your Persona/browser which is operating on another system - the Host - in terms of programming commands; the program then runs on the Host which includes both the strict execution of the commands and the ASIST/Sensory interaction elements;
the Host 'interacts' to those commands with a set of responses and ASIST/Sensory interaction elements; this is recieved by your Persona and sent back to the deck; then those are translated back into DNI and processed by your mind.
Amen, Synner.
As someone working in computer technology in a R&D center, I agree 200% with your post.
I also want to add that the programming rules of Matrix sourcebook are very compliant to RL development process.
As someone working in computer technology in a R&D center, I agree 200% with your post.
I also want to add that the programming rules of Matrix sourcebook are very compliant to RL development process.
EDITED to be readable...Actually can be read now...
All SUs assume max allowed per part. You can only go as fast as the slowest part. You actual Speed is up to your net quickness, decided by your (Int + Will + (Hack or comp skill))/2. You cannot go above the SU allotment.
Matrix Connections
Sat Accessible anywhere on the planet
Type Cost/Month SU Allowable
S-1: 500 ¥ 2
S-2: 750¥ 4
S-3: 1500¥ 5
Personal Accessible anywhere with a line
Type Cost/Month SU Allowable
A-1: 100¥ / month 1
A-2: 250¥ / month 3
A-3: 500¥ / month 5
A-4: 750¥ / month 6
A-5: 1000¥ / month 10
Corporate These also require a business grade line to your house/building
Type Cost/Month SU Allowable
A-1: 1000¥ 10 SU
A-2: 2500¥ 12 SU
A-3: 5000¥ 15 SU
A-4: 7500¥ 20 SU
A-5: 10000¥ 25 SU
Custom Decks All Decks need a case, Active and Physical, Board and Chip.
Deck Cases Flashy colors (Conceal – 2). All boards fit in all decks.
Type Concealment Ex Drive Bays Cost
A: 6 1 200¥
B: 8 2 500¥
C: 10 3 750¥
Boards
Type Cost Active Slots Physical Slots SU Allowment
Light: 200¥ 2 2 15
Med: 300¥ 4 3 30
Heavy: 500¥ 6 4 50
Ex Drives
MiniCD 50¥
Crystal 100¥
Chip Drive 200¥
Active Chips
5 slots 100¥ a pop
10 slots 250¥ a pop
15 slots 500¥ a pop
20 slots 750¥ a pop
Physical Storage
50 slots 150¥ a pop
100 slots 300¥ a pop
150 slots 750¥ a pop
200 slots 1000¥ a pop
Processor Chip:
Type Cost SU Allotment
Low-1: 750¥ 5
Low-2: 1000¥ 10
Mid-1: 1250¥ 15
Mid-2: 1500¥ 25
High-1: 2000¥ 40
High-2: 2500¥ 50
Programs
Your OS/browse utility must always be running to be in matrix. This consumes 1 Active and 3 Physical slots. OS always runs. Base cost assigned to each type:
Rating Base Cost Utility Combat System Development
1 1000¥ 50% 100% 75% 40%
2 2000¥
3 4000¥
4 6000¥
5 10000¥
6 15000¥
7 20000¥
Programming Base Time
Time Cost is per 2 ratings. A Development Program is required.
Total Time = Time / ((Successes of Programming Roll + Devolopment Rating)/4)
Type Base Time Minimum Time
Utility 2 wks 3 days
Combat 1 month 1 week
System 3 wks 5 days
Development 1.5 wks 2 days
Umm, combat is left alone, as is availability. I would like a bit of help there, but I do like how comabt works now, mostly. I welcome comments, and questions.
All SUs assume max allowed per part. You can only go as fast as the slowest part. You actual Speed is up to your net quickness, decided by your (Int + Will + (Hack or comp skill))/2. You cannot go above the SU allotment.
Matrix Connections
Sat Accessible anywhere on the planet
Type Cost/Month SU Allowable
S-1: 500 ¥ 2
S-2: 750¥ 4
S-3: 1500¥ 5
Personal Accessible anywhere with a line
Type Cost/Month SU Allowable
A-1: 100¥ / month 1
A-2: 250¥ / month 3
A-3: 500¥ / month 5
A-4: 750¥ / month 6
A-5: 1000¥ / month 10
Corporate These also require a business grade line to your house/building
Type Cost/Month SU Allowable
A-1: 1000¥ 10 SU
A-2: 2500¥ 12 SU
A-3: 5000¥ 15 SU
A-4: 7500¥ 20 SU
A-5: 10000¥ 25 SU
Custom Decks All Decks need a case, Active and Physical, Board and Chip.
Deck Cases Flashy colors (Conceal – 2). All boards fit in all decks.
Type Concealment Ex Drive Bays Cost
A: 6 1 200¥
B: 8 2 500¥
C: 10 3 750¥
Boards
Type Cost Active Slots Physical Slots SU Allowment
Light: 200¥ 2 2 15
Med: 300¥ 4 3 30
Heavy: 500¥ 6 4 50
Ex Drives
MiniCD 50¥
Crystal 100¥
Chip Drive 200¥
Active Chips
5 slots 100¥ a pop
10 slots 250¥ a pop
15 slots 500¥ a pop
20 slots 750¥ a pop
Physical Storage
50 slots 150¥ a pop
100 slots 300¥ a pop
150 slots 750¥ a pop
200 slots 1000¥ a pop
Processor Chip:
Type Cost SU Allotment
Low-1: 750¥ 5
Low-2: 1000¥ 10
Mid-1: 1250¥ 15
Mid-2: 1500¥ 25
High-1: 2000¥ 40
High-2: 2500¥ 50
Programs
Your OS/browse utility must always be running to be in matrix. This consumes 1 Active and 3 Physical slots. OS always runs. Base cost assigned to each type:
Rating Base Cost Utility Combat System Development
1 1000¥ 50% 100% 75% 40%
2 2000¥
3 4000¥
4 6000¥
5 10000¥
6 15000¥
7 20000¥
Programming Base Time
Time Cost is per 2 ratings. A Development Program is required.
Total Time = Time / ((Successes of Programming Roll + Devolopment Rating)/4)
Type Base Time Minimum Time
Utility 2 wks 3 days
Combat 1 month 1 week
System 3 wks 5 days
Development 1.5 wks 2 days
Umm, combat is left alone, as is availability. I would like a bit of help there, but I do like how comabt works now, mostly. I welcome comments, and questions.
As entertaining and informative as the above discussions are they don't really help me with my problem. I have read the IGTTM and found it entertaining as well and a little helpful. I would have probably been better if they had done the run with just the tests etc. then done it with all the color. IMHO.
However, to bring this back on topic... I'm going to do my own run here. 1st I'll create a host using the rules from the BBB. In fact that's all I'll be using as I don't have any of the Matrix SB's available. So... I'v decided that the Host will be orange. Something tuff but not impossible for a noobie. I've also decide that it's intrusion difficulty will be average. Generating a random number using the BBB rules I role a two wich equals 1. I add the +6 for a total of 7. So the host is now known as Orange-7.
Now for the sub-systems... In order role 2d3 +9 to get numbers: 12,12,12,15,14
So now we know the whole system as Orange-7 12/12/12/15/14
Depending on the posts this generates my next trick will be to create a deck with programs.
Thanos
However, to bring this back on topic... I'm going to do my own run here. 1st I'll create a host using the rules from the BBB. In fact that's all I'll be using as I don't have any of the Matrix SB's available. So... I'v decided that the Host will be orange. Something tuff but not impossible for a noobie. I've also decide that it's intrusion difficulty will be average. Generating a random number using the BBB rules I role a two wich equals 1. I add the +6 for a total of 7. So the host is now known as Orange-7.
Now for the sub-systems... In order role 2d3 +9 to get numbers: 12,12,12,15,14
So now we know the whole system as Orange-7 12/12/12/15/14
Depending on the posts this generates my next trick will be to create a deck with programs.
Thanos
Okay...Well let's do it this way.
You have your target server. check
Don't forget to assign IC level...
Your decker needs stats, and a datajack to go into his computer. Let us know these.
Your decker needs to assign points to his Bod, Masking, Evasion, and Sensors. Once there, let us know those.
You will need to make your decker's deck. Easiest way would be use a base model... like the CMT Avatar, expensive, but nice. in the system.
MPCP of 7
Hardening of 4
I/O speed of 300
Memory of 700
Storage of 1400
Then you must buy programs to put on the deck.
You have your target server. check
Don't forget to assign IC level...
Your decker needs stats, and a datajack to go into his computer. Let us know these.
Your decker needs to assign points to his Bod, Masking, Evasion, and Sensors. Once there, let us know those.
You will need to make your decker's deck. Easiest way would be use a base model... like the CMT Avatar, expensive, but nice. in the system.
MPCP of 7
Hardening of 4
I/O speed of 300
Memory of 700
Storage of 1400
Then you must buy programs to put on the deck.
Before you get into the decker and software, you should first draw up a Security Sheaf listing the IC and trigger steps to go with the Security Rating and ACIFS you have already generated.
Unfortunately though there are rules for determining Security Sheaf trigger steps in SR3 (page 211), the random IC allocation rules are in Matrix. You can either:
Note that calling your host "Orange-7" is slightly misleading and might lead to confusion - Orange-7 is the Security Rating of the Host not a designation. It's «insert corp name here» corporate office Host and it has a Security Rating of Orange-7. This minor distinction is important when your Orange-7 host is actually part of a tiered system (but more on that later).
It's also helpful to know whether you intend to gamemaster or play a decker since this gives us some parameters to help you with. And whether you are creating a decker with Chargen rules or after some game time (this is mainly because depending on your GM's interpretation, decks like the CMT Avatar might be unavailable at creation because the MPCP has a rating above 6).
You may also want to check out The original Idiot's Guide to the Matrix thread which contains guidelines and help for anyone interested in developing a decker and his program load including explanations by a number of people on the various choices available and different priorities/strategies.
Unfortunately though there are rules for determining Security Sheaf trigger steps in SR3 (page 211), the random IC allocation rules are in Matrix. You can either:
- create your own on the fly and attribute IC as you see fit (probably unwise at this point);
- borrow one from one of the published SR3 adventures;
- borrow one of the ones on here
- or try this link to a random host generator (note that from experience I've found the Sheaves generated on this one on the tough side).
Note that calling your host "Orange-7" is slightly misleading and might lead to confusion - Orange-7 is the Security Rating of the Host not a designation. It's «insert corp name here» corporate office Host and it has a Security Rating of Orange-7. This minor distinction is important when your Orange-7 host is actually part of a tiered system (but more on that later).
It's also helpful to know whether you intend to gamemaster or play a decker since this gives us some parameters to help you with. And whether you are creating a decker with Chargen rules or after some game time (this is mainly because depending on your GM's interpretation, decks like the CMT Avatar might be unavailable at creation because the MPCP has a rating above 6).
You may also want to check out The original Idiot's Guide to the Matrix thread which contains guidelines and help for anyone interested in developing a decker and his program load including explanations by a number of people on the various choices available and different priorities/strategies.
| QUOTE |
| Note that calling your host "Orange-7" is slightly misleading and might lead to confusion - Orange-7 is the Security Rating of the Host not a designation. It's «insert corp name here» corporate office Host and it has a Security Rating of Orange-7. This minor distinction is important when your Orange-7 host is actually part of a tiered system (but more on that later). It's also helpful to know whether you intend to gamemaster or play a decker since this gives us some parameters to help you with. And whether you are creating a decker with Chargen rules or after some game time (this is mainly because depending on your GM's interpretation, decks like the CMT Avatar might be unavailable at creation because the MPCP has a rating above 6). |
Yes. I ment that we know it is a orange-7. It's for Corp X. No tiered system. I'm GMing and just want to get the veerrrryyy basics down. So this doesn't represent a charicter or actual game. Just hypothetical so I can get the rules down.
Here's the rest of the info on the host: Corp X orange-7 12/12/12/15/14
Security sheaf is as follows using the rules in the BBB. 2d6 divided by 2 +2. Now I didn't see it but I assume after the 1st number the others are added to it. So 1st trigger is at 3 which activates probe 3. Next role resulted in a 5 so the next trigger, as I figgure it, is 8. At that point probe 5 is activated. Next one is 11 with two tarbaby activated: sleez and analyze. Also passive alert. Finaly 15 blaster 5 active alert.
Orange-7 12/12/12/15/14
SECURITY SHEAF
trigger
3 probe-3
8 probe-5
11 tarbaby-4 x 2 targeting operational and offensive. passive alert
15 blaster-5 active alert.
Access has scramble 5 on it.
Also how exactily does a san figgure into this? I want to put scramble on it.
Thanks
Thanos
That looks good although a bit sparse, you may want to go up to 25 trigger steps. Newbies tend to accumulate a lot more Tally than you'd expect.
Additionally those IC look pretty whimpy, using Matrix (or any of the examples in the adventures) most IC will have a Rating between 5 and 12 on an average toughness Orange system.
Also Tar IC (both Baby and Pit) isn't programmed (SR3 pages 228-229) to target a specific Utility/Program, but rather programs within one of the four general categories of Utilities (Operational, Defensive, Offensive, Special). This means that if programmed against Operational Utilities it will remain hidden (it is Reactive IC) and attempt to destroy the first Operational Utility used after it is triggered.
Regardless of this, it cannot target completely passive Utilities such as armor or sleeze.
A System Access Node in SR3 is simply an iconographic representation of the Access subsystem in ACIFS (especifically the one that links with the Local Telecom Grid rather than a sub-host of the network). Since it is not triggered but is always active, Scramble IC (as well as Virtual Machines, Databombs, worms and other nasty surprises) is listed separately from the Security Sheaf, normally as a small Note at the end:
"Access subsystem has Scramble-8" or "Security cameras in the Slave subsystem have Scramble-7" or "Restricted files have Scramble-8, normal files don't"
Additionally those IC look pretty whimpy, using Matrix (or any of the examples in the adventures) most IC will have a Rating between 5 and 12 on an average toughness Orange system.
Also Tar IC (both Baby and Pit) isn't programmed (SR3 pages 228-229) to target a specific Utility/Program, but rather programs within one of the four general categories of Utilities (Operational, Defensive, Offensive, Special). This means that if programmed against Operational Utilities it will remain hidden (it is Reactive IC) and attempt to destroy the first Operational Utility used after it is triggered.
Regardless of this, it cannot target completely passive Utilities such as armor or sleeze.
A System Access Node in SR3 is simply an iconographic representation of the Access subsystem in ACIFS (especifically the one that links with the Local Telecom Grid rather than a sub-host of the network). Since it is not triggered but is always active, Scramble IC (as well as Virtual Machines, Databombs, worms and other nasty surprises) is listed separately from the Security Sheaf, normally as a small Note at the end:
"Access subsystem has Scramble-8" or "Security cameras in the Slave subsystem have Scramble-7" or "Restricted files have Scramble-8, normal files don't"
I've edited my last post so that it now reads "tarbaby is targeted to operational and offensive programs. I also added scramble 5 to access. I'm leaving everything else the same for simplisity sake. Once I see how things work I'll definitly change the numbers.
Later in the day I'll post the stats for the decker and the deck.
Thanos
Later in the day I'll post the stats for the decker and the deck.
Thanos
Here are the decker and deck stats that I've come up with.
Decker: race ork. B6, Q4, S5, C2, I5, W5. 1 data jack. The only skill I see that applies to decking is computer so that skill is at 6.
Deck: CMT Avatar MPCP-7 This gives me 21 points to spend on BEMS (7X3=21) with no single value being above 7 per the rules in the BBB. So now the deck looks like this: MPCP-7 4/5/7/5 with 4 points of hardening, responce increase 1, active mem 700, storage mem 1400, speed 300. Detection Factor 7 (8+5 divided by 2=7), Hacking pool 4 (5+7 /3=4)
It has the following programs:
Analyze3=12mp
Decrypt5=25mp
Browse3=9mp
Deception5=50mp
Sleaze5=75mp
Read/Write5=50mp
Attack6s=144mp
Armor5=75mp
Spoof4=48mp
Total mp=488mp With 212 left over for what ever.
Lets see where that takes us for a few posts and then we'll try a run against the host I created.
Thanos
Decker: race ork. B6, Q4, S5, C2, I5, W5. 1 data jack. The only skill I see that applies to decking is computer so that skill is at 6.
Deck: CMT Avatar MPCP-7 This gives me 21 points to spend on BEMS (7X3=21) with no single value being above 7 per the rules in the BBB. So now the deck looks like this: MPCP-7 4/5/7/5 with 4 points of hardening, responce increase 1, active mem 700, storage mem 1400, speed 300. Detection Factor 7 (8+5 divided by 2=7), Hacking pool 4 (5+7 /3=4)
It has the following programs:
Analyze3=12mp
Decrypt5=25mp
Browse3=9mp
Deception5=50mp
Sleaze5=75mp
Read/Write5=50mp
Attack6s=144mp
Armor5=75mp
Spoof4=48mp
Total mp=488mp With 212 left over for what ever.
Lets see where that takes us for a few posts and then we'll try a run against the host I created.
Thanos
How quickly we loose interest here. Ok on with the show.
To even log onto the host I 1st have to defeat the scramble ice on the san. To do this I have a TN of 3(the ice rating)-5=-2. How ever 2 is the lowest TN you can have so all I need is a single 2 to beat the ice then I can attempt to log onto the host. The host gets to roll 7 dice (its security rating is 7) against a TN of 12. My DF is 7 but I'm all so running sleaze so that boosts it up to 12.
I roll 8 dice. 6 for my computer skill plus two from my hacking pool. I get 6,6,5,5,4,4,3,2. Easily defeating the ice. The host rolls 7 dice and gets 5,5,5,4,3,1,1. No sucesses so the security tally stays at zero.
Now comes the part where you the reader gets to tell me if I got it right or if I really screwed up the rules.
Looking for your imput
Thanos
To even log onto the host I 1st have to defeat the scramble ice on the san. To do this I have a TN of 3(the ice rating)-5=-2. How ever 2 is the lowest TN you can have so all I need is a single 2 to beat the ice then I can attempt to log onto the host. The host gets to roll 7 dice (its security rating is 7) against a TN of 12. My DF is 7 but I'm all so running sleaze so that boosts it up to 12.
I roll 8 dice. 6 for my computer skill plus two from my hacking pool. I get 6,6,5,5,4,4,3,2. Easily defeating the ice. The host rolls 7 dice and gets 5,5,5,4,3,1,1. No sucesses so the security tally stays at zero.
Now comes the part where you the reader gets to tell me if I got it right or if I really screwed up the rules.
Looking for your imput
Thanos
One small thing straight off the top of my head. Your Detection Factor is the average of your Masking and your Sleaze, rounded up. If you had no Sleaze running, your Masking alone (at rating 7) would provide you with a DF of 4. With Sleaze-5, it makes it ((7 + 5)/2) = 6.
Thus, the host only needs to roll against a TN of 6, not a TN of 12.
Your security tally in the example above would still be zero, but you're not quite as invisible as you thought.
Thus, the host only needs to roll against a TN of 6, not a TN of 12.
Your security tally in the example above would still be zero, but you're not quite as invisible as you thought.
I assume you've deliberately skipped to Log on to LTG, etc. to actually get to your desired target. Also, I agree with Synner, those IC seem to have particularly low ratings for an Orange(Average) system. If you haven't seen it, take a look at an online random host generator, using the SR3 and Matrix rules here: http://plastic.dumpshock.com/shadowrun/mhg.html
Anyway. Your decker is currently in the LTG, facing a scrambled SAN. Before you can attempt to Log On to Host, you have to Decrypt the Scramble IC protecting it. You make a Computers(Decking) test against a 2 (Rating 5 IC - Decrypt 5 = TN 0, brought up to 2 as the minimum target number). Your decker scored 5 successes. The Host then makes a Security Test against your Detection Factor (7 dice, target number 6 as Kurukami said). Since the Host got no successes, you decrypt the entry to the SAN and avoid racking up a security tally.
Next, you'll need to perform a Log On to Host operation. This is also a Computer(Decking) test, target number 12 (The Host's Access rating) - 5 (The rating of you Deception Utility), or TN 7. That test is opposed by the Host's standard Security roll (7 dice, vs. your DF of 6).
Mal-2
Anyway. Your decker is currently in the LTG, facing a scrambled SAN. Before you can attempt to Log On to Host, you have to Decrypt the Scramble IC protecting it. You make a Computers(Decking) test against a 2 (Rating 5 IC - Decrypt 5 = TN 0, brought up to 2 as the minimum target number). Your decker scored 5 successes. The Host then makes a Security Test against your Detection Factor (7 dice, target number 6 as Kurukami said). Since the Host got no successes, you decrypt the entry to the SAN and avoid racking up a security tally.
Next, you'll need to perform a Log On to Host operation. This is also a Computer(Decking) test, target number 12 (The Host's Access rating) - 5 (The rating of you Deception Utility), or TN 7. That test is opposed by the Host's standard Security roll (7 dice, vs. your DF of 6).
Mal-2
Your right! My bad. Now as you had no other commments I'm assuming that everything so far is correct and I can now try to log onto the Host. Now I'm trying to do this with out looking at the book so here goes. To log onto the host I'll be trying to gain access. So my TN is 12. I have deception-5 running so that decreases my TN to 7. I roll my computer plus 2 hacking dice and get 7,5,4,3,3,2,2,1. The host however gets 6,6,6,4,3,3. I fail to log on and the security tally is now 3. Which activates Probe-3 ice.
OH BOY!
Thanos
OH BOY!
Thanos
| QUOTE (Thanos007) |
| The host however gets 6,6,6,4,3,3. I fail to log on and the security tally is now 3. Which activates Probe-3 ice. |
This brings up a point I'm not sure on. Your decker isn't actually in the Host yet, his Icon is currently in the LTG, but you've activated IC inside the Host.
Normally when you activate IC, the GM makes a secret Sensors test against the rating of the IC to see if you even notice it. In this case, the IC is on the other side of a SAN from you. Are there any clear rules on how this is supposed to work?
Mal-2
| QUOTE |
Normally when you activate IC, the GM makes a secret Sensors test against the rating of the IC to see if you even notice it. In this case, the IC is on the other side of a SAN from you. Are there any clear rules on how this is supposed to work? Mal-2 |
That is a good question. Any one have an answer?
Thanos
| QUOTE (Thanos007) | ||
That is a good question. Any one have an answer? |
Not a matrix expert here, but I would imagine that the probe IC will just be waiting on the other side of the gate if you ever did get in (and it's calm-down period hadn't reset)...
Oh, it will be waiting, you can count on that. Just look at this example in the IGTTM ( and do a search for "lumbering troll" )... 
Certainly the Probe IC should activate. I'm not sure if the decker should get his normal Sensors[IC Rating] test to notice that it activated, though. If anything, I'd be tempted to give it to him at a TN equal to (IC Rating + Access subsystem of the Host), to represent the difficulty of determining what's going on in a system you haven't fully been able to access yet.
Are there any existing rules allowing you to scout a host before loging on to it?
Are there any existing rules allowing you to scout a host before loging on to it?
This is an important element of the SAN aspect of the Access subsystem. When you are accessing a host, be it from an LTG or another host (as in a tiered system), you are actually try to get through the Access subsystem on the 'next' host. Any Tally you wrack up will only come into effect after you manage to Log On (step through the door) to that host.
Regarding the Probe IC it will continue to monitor the "illegal account's" attempts to Log On if it is active (contributing to the Security Tally) but will remain out of your reach until you do Log On (and even then the GM has to make a secret Sensor Test for you to notice it - SR3 page 209 - if you fail it continues to do its business and helping to increase the Security Tally without the decker even knowing it is there).
The important thing to note here (and the reason I made the comment on whether this is being approached from a GMs or players point of view) is that the decker does not know his Security Tally (finding this out requires an Analyze Security operation inside the host). He doesn't know its gone up to step three. He doesn't know Probe may have been triggered. If he fails the above secret roll (when he gets in) he has no way of knowing the IC is active and acting against him except to make a System Operation which in turn might increase his Tally again.
Thanos - your Detection Factor is extremely low, even for this grade of system and weak IC. You really need to work on maxing it out or else you'll be running into trouble.
Regarding the Probe IC it will continue to monitor the "illegal account's" attempts to Log On if it is active (contributing to the Security Tally) but will remain out of your reach until you do Log On (and even then the GM has to make a secret Sensor Test for you to notice it - SR3 page 209 - if you fail it continues to do its business and helping to increase the Security Tally without the decker even knowing it is there).
The important thing to note here (and the reason I made the comment on whether this is being approached from a GMs or players point of view) is that the decker does not know his Security Tally (finding this out requires an Analyze Security operation inside the host). He doesn't know its gone up to step three. He doesn't know Probe may have been triggered. If he fails the above secret roll (when he gets in) he has no way of knowing the IC is active and acting against him except to make a System Operation which in turn might increase his Tally again.
Thanos - your Detection Factor is extremely low, even for this grade of system and weak IC. You really need to work on maxing it out or else you'll be running into trouble.
OK. What would a good DF be for a begining decker? What is the best way to boost it. Keep in mind that all suggestions and info must come from the BBB
Thanks
Thanos
Thanks
Thanos
Well, typically the best you'll be able to start off with (reasonably) would be somewhere around a 6 or 7. The Kraftwerk-8 in the SR3 rulebook is available to starting players, I believe ( availability 8 ), but programs over rating 6 usually aren't. Thus, you'll be able to start with your Masking at 8, but your Sleaze will likely only be 6.
Keep in mind, though, that one of the rules in (I think) the Matrix rulebook allows one to run in a particular MPCP "mode" which increases the value of that Matrix attribute by 50% at the cost of decreasing another one by the same percentage. Therefore, by running in Masking mode you can boost that Masking persona chip's rating from 8 up to 12, which (combined with a Sleaze of 5 or 6) will put your DF at 9.
Keep in mind, though, that one of the rules in (I think) the Matrix rulebook allows one to run in a particular MPCP "mode" which increases the value of that Matrix attribute by 50% at the cost of decreasing another one by the same percentage. Therefore, by running in Masking mode you can boost that Masking persona chip's rating from 8 up to 12, which (combined with a Sleaze of 5 or 6) will put your DF at 9.
Well, Detection Factor = (Masking + Sleaze)/2, so raising both of those is paramount. Your maximum Masking Rating is limited by your MPCP. Depending on how your GM interprets the starting equipment limits, that means either a Novatech Hyperdeck-6 (if maximum ratings apply to MPCP, this is MPCP 6 and the best you can get) or a CMT Avatar (if you're going by availability, this is availablity 6, and the best deck you can get under availability 
.
So, assuming you can get a CMT Avatar, with MPCP 7. You could split that up as MPCP-7/4/5/7/5, and run sleaze 6, which would give you a DF of 7. As far as I can tell, that's the best you can do for a starting character using just SR3. Statistically, that's the same thing as a DF of 6.
If you were using the Matrix sourcebook, there's a few other things you can do. For instance, you could engage Masking Mode, which would boost your Masking by 50%, dropping one of your other attributes by 50%. You can also get the Sneak Option on some of your Utilities, which raises your DF while using those Utilities.
.So, assuming you can get a CMT Avatar, with MPCP 7. You could split that up as MPCP-7/4/5/7/5, and run sleaze 6, which would give you a DF of 7. As far as I can tell, that's the best you can do for a starting character using just SR3. Statistically, that's the same thing as a DF of 6.
If you were using the Matrix sourcebook, there's a few other things you can do. For instance, you could engage Masking Mode, which would boost your Masking by 50%, dropping one of your other attributes by 50%. You can also get the Sneak Option on some of your Utilities, which raises your DF while using those Utilities.
Thanos, I highly suggest reading the now-14-page (as I write this 
) "Idiot's guide to the Matrix". There was a smaller-scale intro run done, but this thread (Where Kurukami's decker is running Matrix Overwatch on Synner's system) more accurately represents the depths of drek your decker can more reliably expect to find themself in. Deep, deep, DEEP drek.
It's a very informative and entertaining read, as both participants are giving lots of behind the scenes details on how things work, and on strategies/tactics. I suspect that were I the decker instead of Kurukami, I'd probably have been a sizzling pile of meatbod LONG ago.
[edited to reflect the proper spelling of Thanos' name Sorry, chummer, for messing that up.]
) "Idiot's guide to the Matrix". There was a smaller-scale intro run done, but this thread (Where Kurukami's decker is running Matrix Overwatch on Synner's system) more accurately represents the depths of drek your decker can more reliably expect to find themself in. Deep, deep, DEEP drek.It's a very informative and entertaining read, as both participants are giving lots of behind the scenes details on how things work, and on strategies/tactics. I suspect that were I the decker instead of Kurukami, I'd probably have been a sizzling pile of meatbod LONG ago.
[edited to reflect the proper spelling of Thanos' name
Sorry, chummer, for messing that up.]
Yes I've read the IGTTM and it is vastly entertaining. Also some what educational but I find that the easyest way for me to learn something is by doing it. So that is the reason for this thread. Think of it as a complement to the IGTTM especialy for the slower among us (me too). When I get to work I'll post my next moves (thats where my books are)
Thanks
Thanos
Thanks
Thanos
OK. If I'm correct I don't have to defeat the scramble ice again and can attempt another log on. I do so rolling 8 dice. I get 11,5,4,3,3,2,1,1. The host get's 5,5,4,3,2,2,1. My one success gets me into the host. The hosts 0 keeps the tally at 3.
Now that I'm inside the host I do have to deal with the probe ice. As GM I make the secret roll and get 6,5,4,2,1,1. The probe ice gets 4,3,2. I (as decker) have 3 successes and notice the ice. The probe get 0 successes. I get a free ride and the tally stays the same. If this is all correct then I can try many things from here. After this post I most likely just jump into cyber combat as I think I understand everything but that pretty well now. This has helped a lot.
How do you determine initiative in the matrix? Can't seem to find it.
Thanks
Thanos
P.S. If this thread has bored you just wait until I start my rigging thread!!! WOO-HOO!!!
Now that I'm inside the host I do have to deal with the probe ice. As GM I make the secret roll and get 6,5,4,2,1,1. The probe ice gets 4,3,2. I (as decker) have 3 successes and notice the ice. The probe get 0 successes. I get a free ride and the tally stays the same. If this is all correct then I can try many things from here. After this post I most likely just jump into cyber combat as I think I understand everything but that pretty well now. This has helped a lot.
How do you determine initiative in the matrix? Can't seem to find it.
Thanks
Thanos
P.S. If this thread has bored you just wait until I start my rigging thread!!! WOO-HOO!!!
just one small "offtopic" post:
never ever try to mix real life computer knowhow with the matrix rules, NEVER! that is unless your doing it in the very broadest sense...
one thing you have to remeber is that neuromancer was written on a typewriter by a person that never had used a computer in his life...
but still i prefer the matrix style over real life, matrix is a mutch more wild world
so stuff that in you packet and sniff it 
never ever try to mix real life computer knowhow with the matrix rules, NEVER! that is unless your doing it in the very broadest sense...
one thing you have to remeber is that neuromancer was written on a typewriter by a person that never had used a computer in his life...
but still i prefer the matrix style over real life, matrix is a mutch more wild world
so stuff that in you packet and sniff it
I think you missed a few things there, Thanos007. I agree that the Scrable IC remains decrypted, so you need to Log On to Host operation again. That's a Computer [7] test, which you made, and got one success. That's opposed by a Security Rating test, TN 7 (your Detection Factor). The Host also rolls three extra dice from the active Probe 3 IC. Any successes on those bonus dice will add to your Security Tally, but will not counter your successes trying to Log On to the Host.
Once you're inside, the GM makes a Sensors[3] roll for the decker, which is not opposed by anything. Since you scored three successes, the decker will know that there is active IC, that it is Probe IC, and that it is Rating 3.
Matrix Initiative is Reaction + 1d6, plus bonuses from response increase on the deck. In this case the CMT Avatar comes with level 1 response increase, so your decker's Matrix initiative is 6+2d6. Initiative for IC is determined by the table on SR3 223. Since this is an Orange Host, the IC has initiative of 3+3d6.
Once you're inside, the GM makes a Sensors[3] roll for the decker, which is not opposed by anything. Since you scored three successes, the decker will know that there is active IC, that it is Probe IC, and that it is Rating 3.
Matrix Initiative is Reaction + 1d6, plus bonuses from response increase on the deck. In this case the CMT Avatar comes with level 1 response increase, so your decker's Matrix initiative is 6+2d6. Initiative for IC is determined by the table on SR3 223. Since this is an Orange Host, the IC has initiative of 3+3d6.
| QUOTE |
| The Host also rolls three extra dice from the active Probe 3 IC. Any successes on those bonus dice will add to your Security Tally, but will not counter your successes trying to Log On to the Host. |
I did roll the 3 dice, but I did it once I loged on to the host. Or should I have rolled after the 2nd log on attempt but before I was actualy on the host. And again once i was on the host. Here's a question. How many times does the probe try to do it's thing? Just the once when it's activated or every time I try to do something after it's activated?
Thanks
Thanos
| QUOTE (hobgoblin) |
| just one small "offtopic" post: never ever try to mix real life computer knowhow with the matrix rules, NEVER! that is unless your doing it in the very broadest sense... one thing you have to remeber is that neuromancer was written on a typewriter by a person that never had used a computer in his life... but still i prefer the matrix style over real life, matrix is a mutch more wild world so stuff that in you packet and sniff it |
So true. Many's the time I wish that programming was as kinetic and fun as it's portrayed in, say, the movie "Swordfish".
| QUOTE (Thanos007) |
| How many times does the probe try to do it's thing? Just the once when it's activated or every time I try to do something after it's activated? |
The Probe Test is made every time the decker makes a System Test. Since Log On to Host is a System Operation (and requires a System Test), you roll the IC's Probe Test when attempting it. Since noticing an Icon in a Host is not a System Test, you don't roll the Probe Test for that.
Mal-2
Just bumping this untill I get time to go over matrix combat.
Thanos
Thanos
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