I am nearly positive I'm going to get beat down for this, but the Mana Static - Query thread reminded me of a thread I intended to start a few weeks ago. Namely, my own way of nerfing mana static.

Yes, I just used the satan-word of DS. Nerf. Something I usually detest myself since I prefer rules that add to the fun, clarify problems, and otherwise make with the happy. Taking a chunk out of what a lot of people consider one of the greatest spells ever is...well, shitty of me.

BUT, it was a decision came to with my entire group, who all agreed that Mana Static was just too bad assed (*coughs* mostly after I hosed them by having a sec mage who threw his own MS up to kill off the summoner/face's horde of fire spirits)

The change is simple. Rather than following the rules of permanent spells taking effect in the round they are cast and just dissipating if not sustained long enough, we changed it to not take effect until the end of the rounds needed to sustain it to permancy.

I.e. No instant nut-punch to caster's and spirits. It's a tactical spell used to hose up an area's mana for an extended time. Period.

The group have even managed to make use of it tactically for this method. Laying traps using it to make corridors that forced a toxic they were hunting to follow they path they wanted him to follow if he wanted to keep his magic for instance, then boxing him in from behind.

There's even precedence, strictly speaking, for this sort change to RAW. From page 203 of BBB, "The Ignite spell accelerates molecular motion in the
target, causing it to catch fire once the spell becomes permanent."

In other words, it has no effect until enough mana had built up to cause the flame to burst and sustain itself naturally. In this case though, it's building up enough mana to warp an area so severely that it causes a temporary background count to form that has no effect until it's released like a bomb.


ANYWAYS, just something that my group and I came up with, that I wanted to see how the DS community took to. Ruin of the greatest thing in shadowrun ever? Good idea, but not the best way of limiting it? Keep it to my own table and stop spreading my nerf filth on these boards? All opinions welcome.


P.S. To make it once more clear, this is purely a house rule for limiting MS a bit. In no way is this some bizarre interpretation of actual rules that I'm trying to call cannon.

Instead of having it work all at once at the end, why not let it really build up?
Starting at MS 1 and ending with whatever number of hits the caster scored?

That would be my suggestion if a nerf is needed. Divide the resulting Background Count into the required amount of time needed to sustain the spell, and have the BC build up progressively over that time.

We actually talked about that in the group and two people (myself included) were in favor of it, but others grumbled about bookkeeping involved in determining what the count was at at any given pass and turn (based on what pass and init the caster started on and then on force of the spell)

Plus, the time you have to sustain is twice the drain value in combat turns, so it'd take 8 + Force turns to get to full power, which doesn't scale very linearly really, though I suppose you could just divide the total turns by successes to get the turn count that it goes up each time or something.

In the end, my group just didn't want to mess with it, but it's a valid alternative, and even makes more sense really.

Isn't that what I said?

This is exactly the change I was thinking of making.

The high drain is fine, because you cast in preparation, so you often have time to shake off the drain. It makes a great area denial spell, a way of messing up a Toxic mage's day, a defence against known spirit users, or even a way for a security team to prepare a well defended part of their installation by mana-staticing the hell out of it, and then filling it with augmented guards. At the same time the time needed to make it permanent is only in rounds, so you can still use it as a make-shift defence in the middle of a run when it's needed.

I'd argue this rule actually adds to the fun of the game, because it makes people think more creatively about how they use Mana-Static, and leads to situations like "Just hold them off a little longer, the spell is nearly ready!"

Damnit Fortune! Stop making me look slow by posting my ideas first!!!




Heh. There really aren't enough "Just hold them off a little longer" moments anymore in my sessions, I'll have to keep that in mind.

To be frank I would just outright ban it. It ought to be in the same category as Teleportation and Time Travel. Not something you can do with normal magic.

Back in the day Background Count was something impressive and rare, reserved for the sites of truly enormous or horrific events. Now it is wheeled out every five minutes by any GM that lacks the creativity to reign in the monstrous PC's that he has allowed to come to be.

It used to be an optional system that ranged from 1 to 5+ with Stonehenge being a 4 and the site of the Great Ghost Dance a 5 or possibly even a 6.

And that was back in the day, when stat's were uncapped and spell locks were only Force 1 but could sustain any force of spell. Four colour Shadowrun if you will.

Anyone suggesting that a mere spell is capable of generating a Background Count rivalling or surpassing that of the Great Ghost Dance has slotted one too many BTL's in my opinion.

I might consider a spell that raised local BC by one whilst it was sustained, Force would have to be Current Count + 6 and Drain would be in the Force/2+6 area.

[Aside]
I assume I am correct in believing that one must be Astrally Perceiving, at least, to cast Mana Static at all.
[/Aside]

Nerfing and banning because something kills low-force spirits and makes high-force spirits doable? Banning Aspected Mana Static I would get, but Mana Static???

Actually you do not have to Astrally percieve to cast the spell at all and it does affect the Astral as well. However it is not really a permanent spell as the background count does recede at 1 point per hour to return to normal.

Mana Static p.173 Street Magic


So this is to me a Temporary Permanent spell.

Yes it is a killer spell but the sites like the GDD, StoneHenge and all the others are Permanent sites of Background count either Voids, Surges, and such; whereas this spell creates a temporary background count.

I'd never consider banning it, I think it has it's uses. I just detest anything that can have essentially a greater effect in casting it "incorrectly" (i.e. putting it up for one round to kill a bunch of spirits, then "failing" to sustain it for as long as it needs) than it does when used how it was written as a permanent spell.

Then again, I can't think of a single permanent spell that I _wouldn't_ prefer be treated like this. Heal, for instance, in my mind shouldn't just 'fade' if it is interrupted before being finished. It should not take effect at all until it's over. It would prevent mid-combat healings leading to the "K, hold on to me til your spell is done while I fire from prone since I feel so much better suddenly" thing that one of my players tried to pull once.

Regardless, mana static in my mind is an area of denial attack. It's not meant to be a one round spirit/sustained spell basher, even if that's the effect it can have by raw.

To my mind it isn't a question of Permanence but of magnitude. Spells are limited by the amount of mana a single mind can channel and mold and are capable of creating a background count of 1. More intense background counts require orders of magnitude more power to create, even temporarily.

Sacrifice a life? Now we are talking background count. I would use it like the Richter scale, base it of powers of 6. Magic/Essence of 6, BC 1. Magic/Esssence of 7-36, BC 2. Magic/Essence 37-216, BC 3, etc....

Bearing in mind that that 'Scaling' of SR4 is very different to previous editions, 6 becomes 4 etc, and that SR4's version of BC is massively harsher than in previous editions.

Additionally, like I said I don't think Spells should be able to influence Astral Space in this manner. It plays havoc with the whole ED/SR storyline. If a poxy 400BP Runner can, even for a micro-second, create a BC equivalent to the GDD why can't infinitely older and more skilled Magicians, who in cannon are already able to fudge many of the rules, manipulate the Astral in other, story-breaking, ways?

[Aside]

The target of the spell is Astral Space. You must be perceiving it to target it. Yesno?

[/Aside]

No. The target is an area, just like any other area spell. You can drop it on either plane and it affects both. Mystic Adepts and non-Materialized spirits have no trouble doing whatever they want with it.

Meh. Seems like a mountain out of a molehill. An incendiary grenade will usually prevent spellcasting much more effectively than any background count, and for less drain.

-Frank

I don't find myself agreeing with you very often, but for once-- Amen to that, Frank.

No.

Area spells only affect targets that you can see. With the obvious exception of Elemental Combat Spells.

If you can't see Astral Space you cannot target it with a manipulation spell.

Just as you cannot target an Astrally Projecting Magician with a spell without 'Perceiving' him first.

Environmental Manipulation spells target an area, and affect the environment in that area. Background Count is the same on the Astral or Physical, and is an environmental effect. So, yes, Mana Static cast on the Physical will affect the Astral in it's area, and vice versa.

True, but an incendiary grenade won't auto-kill anything. That's my big problem with it. The auto-killing of spirits. Specifically auto-killing without even fully casting the spell by just dropping sustaining before it's finished.

There's not a lot in SR4 that causes absolute unavoidable instant death. A hell of a lot that will smash the eggshells well and good, but not without at least some kind of pitiful attempt to resist it.

That said, it really is probably a mountain out of a molehill, but eh, so is a lot on DS. That's what makes it so jerry springer-like addictive.

Source?

All I can find is 'all visible targets within the area are affected' SR4 p173. There are exceptions made for indirect combat spells but I can't find any exceptions to this ruling made for Environmental Manipulations.

AFAIK if you don't have LOS to what you want to affect, in this case Astral Space, you don't affect it.

Well I felt it was too potentially disruptive especially on the high end. Having one mage being able to drastically alter astral space for an extended period of time is just something I can't support so I essentially made it cost progressively more. 1hit = -1, 3hits = -2, 6hits = -3, 10 hits = -4 etc. This allows it to have an effect without being an end all, be all spell. Its effect on spirits is not my main concern it is the complete magic smackdown. With this progression even a high level initiate wont be able to create a -12 background count.

[Aboutface]

The actual target of Mana Static is Physical Mana present in the real world. SM explicitly states that BC or Aspecting imprinted on one planes mana 'leaks' through to it's mirrors mana also, SM p112.

By applying a BC to physical mana one also creates a BC in astral mana.

Note you have not targeted 'astral mana' with the spell, it just so happens that astral mana explicitly mirrors the state of physical mana and vice versa.

You cannot target stuff you can't see. Except with Indirect Combat Spells.

[/Aboutface]

An oversight here in my opinion is the relatively small radius of the Mana Static.

Sure, it does make a good ambush.

But casting it in combat (considering the long cast time thanks to P) will either get you killed outright or your targets might have moved somewhere else already and dispersed into various positions where you don't get all of them.
I have yet to see an effective use of it as a spell cast in combat, then again: I do not employ hordes of Force 8 spirits alot.

When you look at it they've really amped the effect of BC in SR4 to incredible levels.

It used to be TN mods, which translates to a Pool penalty, like a perception mod. Now, however, it's a direct drain on your magic stat, vastly reducing the force of spells you can cast and the size of your casting pool whilst simultaneously keeping the drain at the same level.

Additionally, unlike ever other scaling change in SR4, Background counts have gone up!

Stonehenge now rates a 5 and whole new types of BC have been created that range all the way up to 12+

To be frank, if you don't like the effect magic has on the game tone it done at the root or go and play Cyberpunk instead.

Can you please give me a quote or page number on the description (not stat line) of this spell? As far as I know, its only appearance is an erroneous listing in the index at the back of Street Magic, and it is not mentioned, or even hinted at anywhere else.

Yeah, it is only in the german version. So better stay away from those german speaking mages. Or get a linguasoft.

Hmmm. That definitely needs fixing.

Much obliged.

You have your quote already, kindly provided by Zak. I did not know this is "limited to the german edition", QUITE liberal translation if the correct original was used. The spell is a very different kind of animal as it boosts your magic, but may either hinder or boost the opposition.

It definitely has the 'not in my game' sticker on it, as far as I'm concerned.

Personally, I think there should be an errata stating that supposedly 'permanent' spells cannot be moved during the sustaining process. I think that the whole 'shifting the spell' thing should be limited to sustained spells only. My reasoning is that the main purpose behind sustaining a spell for a short while before before it becomes permanent is to 'attune' the mana to the particular item/person/location properly. The whole idea of changing the parameters of a 'permanent' spell by totally changing the affected area just doesn't make sense to me.

It requires one hit per force point of the spirit. You need to get five hits to "auto-kill" a Force 5 spirit. Your spellcasting test needs 8 actual hits to auto-kill a Force 8 spirit. A spirit who happens to have Magical guard will, on average, pick up 2 hits for every 3 force when resisting a spell like Manabolt. A manabolt of sufficiently large Force will kill a spirit (or anyone else) with even a single net hit. A Mana Static of any Force has the same Drain Value as a Manabolt of Force 8 or 9 higher than itself, which means that it is always directly comparable to a Mana Bolt that will instantly ultrakill any target you are concerned with in one shot with just one net hit.

Mana Static is great because it lets you ricochet off the physical plane and clear out watchers from the Astral without going there yourself. That's really cool. But it's not a drain-efficient or even reliable way to kill spirits of any worthwhile force.

Aspected Mana Static would be horrible unbalanced. It does not appear in the book that we wrote, and with good reason.

-Frank

But who added it to the german version, and why do we not have pictures of their flaming skull impaled on a pike yet?

Important question. Aspected mana static was not the only thing fucked up while translating.

However, those people won't do much with shadowrun in the near future as the german version of SR wasn't continued after the Fanpro fizzle. If you ask me, that is a good thing.

I am personally not pleased with the state of german shadowrun. It´s high time for someone to clear that up.

Aspected Mana Static is banned from our game. The idea that pushed it over was aspecting a site to +6 for conjuration.

Not that it really matters for this discussion, but can spirits spend a point of edge to escape certain death?