John Milius once said in a DVD extra interview that movie sets are more effective if they're physically built than if they're computer generated because they provide a sense of reality to the scene. A viewer can still tell if something was actually built versus if it was all blue room CG crap.

In the same way, I often felt that RPGs such as Shadowrun would do better if there were statistics for real world classic firearms (the statistics for each and every weapon need not always be greatly different, either, given the granularity of the system) it could provide a sense of reality and a mental frame of reference for players. On the other hand, if the firearms are entirely made up, it can create a bit of confusion or less of a sense of reality.

In the first place, if the weapons are totally made up, it's not always clear what the weapons are supposed to be in real world terms. For example, is the Ares Predator closer to a HK mk 23, or is it closer to a Deagle? I remember back when I used to GM a new player said that he wanted a pistol for his character that was like a deagle in .50AE. I told him to pick the Predator, given the 9M damage code and the fact that the Ruger Warhawk was only 1 point of Power higher, but at the same time IIRC Raygun went ahead and statted handguns in 9x19 P and .45 ACP at 9M damage as well. At the same time as a GM I'd been thinking of "realistic" pistol calibers as falling into the 6L light pistol category, just because 9M was so hyper-powerful versus people, vehicles, and everything. So right there that's an example of how totally made up weapons without a clear frame of reference can make people think of different things when they pick weapons.

Secondly, real-world classic firearms are gritty and ballsy and make for more dramatic scenes, again because of the sense of reality they impart. Look at the two following writing samples:

"Wolff Tungsten, his leathers dripping with his own blood, grimaced like a demon as he walked towards the man in the suit, stepping on the dead with every other stride. Without a word, he raised his Predator, and fired, his eyes coming to rest finally on his racked-back slide and not on the wallflower bloom of hemoglobin and fatty pink tissue which had sprouted on the wall behind the traitorous Mr. Johnson. He stared at his racked-back slide and didn't reload because it was finally over."

"Wolff Tungsten, his leathers dripping with his own blood, grimaced like a demon as he walked towards the man in the suit, stepping on the dead with every other stride. Without a word, he raised the vintage 1911 from his father's gun collection, and fired, his eyes coming to rest finally on his racked-back slide and not on the wallflower bloom of hemoglobin and fatty pink tissue which had sprouted on the wall behind the traitorous Mr. Johnson. He stared at his racked-back slide and didn't reload because it was finally over."

You read the first one, and you're like, hmm, some kind of gun, I guess. But you don't know how big it is, the round it fires, what it sounds like, or even what color it is. You read the second one referencing a vintage 1911 and you know exactly what it looks like, what it sounds like, how it kicked when he fired, and you can even imagine how big the hole in Johnson's head is. You think, "What a badass Wolff Tungsten is, he just killed a whole bunch of people with an old .45!", because you've probably used a 1911 yourself in the past, or you know someone who has, or you've read a lot about them, and you understand both its strengths and limitations.

If SR had stats for classic weapons, it would really improve immersion since it would give weapons real world reference points, and it would improve characterization. Does your character choose to carry a CAR 15 in 5.56, or does he lug around an old M14? That's characterization.

One of my PCs in my group is getting an ancient Webley revolver.

One of the character's in my story has a 150th Anniversary Edition Colt M1911A1, a Holland & Holland Double Rifle that's 165-years old, and a few other from his collection that he hasn't shown yet!

So what about those of us who don't fall into any of those categories? Both paragraphs sound pretty much exactly the same to me. To me saying it was a gun from his fathers collection raises more imagry then saying it's a 1911 vs a pedator.

Agree with Walrus above. Also, if the devs did stat real-world weapons there would be an ENDLESS litany of complaints about methodology.

How many DS posts would begin... "Well, I used a [weapon name here] for years in [insert real-world conflict here] and it never, EVER [insert behavior or damage code here]."

?

=)

Let's face it, Ronin. If the devs went this way, it would just draw ire from you when they inevitably get the damage codes wrong.

A good picture + matching description have always been enough for me to get a sense of what a gun is supposed to be.

When I read the above paragraph mentioning a Predator, my mind immediately conjures the image from the SR1 gear section.

Similarly, I have a good idea what 1911 looks like, though I've never held, much less fired, one. The 1911 seems out of character for the setting, however, while the Predator does not.

Just my 2

-paws

I concur with Paws, above.

As an aside, CP2020 did post stats for older weapons in their main book. For some reason I keep thinking I saw some for SR as well, but that can't be right. Truthfully though, it would probably be sufficient to take a point or two off from Power and be done with it. My assumption has been the primary changes have been modifications in engineering to allow a larger round to be more comfortably fired, a more effective smokeless powder, and other minor changes to make weapons cycle quicker and fire more accurately. Ultimately, most of the changes are fairly minor. Yes, a gun nut may prefer some historical guns for the purpose of baselining, but given the authors obvious lack of knowledge about firearms and the lack of understading on the part of MOST players, I don't know that that would have been so successful for the most part.

You want a 1911? Use the Predator IV stat line.

Many weapon attachments from the SR era will not work with it, because it is not designed to interface with anything but your palm and trigger ringer. A SG link would give a point of aim, but nothing else.

If it is original, pre-awakening, it is probably worth several thousand as an antique.

It might also be a Barrens knock-off from some guy in a van with a tabletop CNC mill and a pile of scrap steel. Caveat emptor.

It would be a great weapon to hunt technomages with, though. Just try and hack it...

I imagine a light pistol as the biggest handgun the average person might want to fire, ie, 9mm, or .40.

A heavy pistol would be the kind of pistol we just kind of shake our head and grimace at today, like 10mm Auto, .44mag, etc.

I would put .45ACP in both groups, because of how granular the SR system. Likewise, I'd put .44mag also in the superheavy catagory (of which there is still only one, even after 20 years!)

My husband has a Webley revolver.

In the game we also had a Lewis gun.

actualy, i think the Colt Government 2066 (Arsenal) is probably a closer match to the 1911. i've always assumed that the Pred was a .50AE.

I think coming up with stuff like this is basically a task for RayGun. He's the one with the knowledge to do it AND the generosity to put it all on the web for us. Everyone's right; if the devs tried this, we'd eat them alive. We'd be like "Ok, so a predator's supposed to be a Deagle, but remember, it's a Deagle that's assumed to be bored for Firepower ammuntion!" And then everyone would have something mean/stupid/hostile to say about that, and it would end with everyone calling me a stupid liberal, and someone vowing to quit the game.

HOWEVER, I would still like rules on vintage guns. Not stats, necessarily. But they could say an assault rifle is an assault rifle, but vintage ones have a chance of failing. Kind of like second-hand cyber rules from previous editions, I guess (I'm not sure off the top of my head what the new ones are). I don't think the vintage guns most people would come across would be the 19th century rifles worth thousands (nor do I think a 1911 would be worth that much). But you read stories about Iraqi insurgents using old weapons left behind by the European forces in the area in WWII, and similar reports from most other conflicts. I don't really think the AK-47s of the world would really have had time to die off by 2070. I don't mean to get into an argument about the ruggedness of that weapon (like happens most the time it gets brought up in a gun thread on the internet), but I don't think anyone will dispute that there's been a LOT of AK-47s produced over the years. Unless some asshole like me took control of the world in the 40s or something (if a future sourcebook comes out saying I controlled the world in the 2040s, I want a writing credit), at least some of them are still going to be out there. And even if they're in crappy condition, people use crappy weapons when they can't find anything else. I can see a lot of AK-47s on the streets of Seattle, just because they'd be way cheaper than an AK-97. Not everyone that wants to spray bullets at a cop is going to have hundreds of nuyen laying around.

Can't you pick up a 47 for about £5 a unit (I don't know where the amount from or the date (I think it was a TV show about the arms trade)) they are dirt cheap. You'd end up paying more for the ammo that the gun for even a few clips.

It's about $80 per AK-47 and 20 rounds of ammo, delivered. In quantities of several hundred thousand from Norinco.

Ah then my cost must be for out in the areas where you don't pay a lot for delivery to the country or the researches screwed up on that fact. But still £40 is still cheap.

but then cp2020 use a combat system based around fbi ballistics data (or so the story goes), and have damage codes based on what caliber ammo used, not what gun one is using.

so in CP2020 a 9mm is a 9mm is a 9mm. the only diff between them will be the reliability and cost. for all other practical reasons, they will do the same damage to the target.

i would not bet on it. take the multiple smith scene in matrix 2. its cgi to the nth degree, but still im hard pressed to tell when the life shot ends and the cgi begins.

still, there they use textures that are high rez photos of the actors and environment, as well as 3d models scanned from the same actors, so it may not be surprising.

now pure cgi, that have no basis in real life, that may be something else as things will have something that makes you go "that cant be real!".

but then i got blown away when i watched final fantasy: the movie. sure, you can tell that they are not real. but they do walk up the other side of the uncanny valley to me, thats for sure...

Well, yes. Being painted green doesn't make it shoot bullets better.

tell that to the 10P revolver

what im trying to say is that going that route would take a whole lot of reworking of how SR damage system works.

hell, how would one intro novelty ammo into a caliber based system?

£5 is for a "freshly pre-owned" AK, meaning you have to rinse the previous owner off the weapon.

I find that Shadowrun tries to be a gritty crime movie and an 80s action film at the same time. Hence why revolvers do more damage than assault rifles. Not because they should, but because it is cool.

The FBI ballistics write-up is a guaranteed book to cure insomnia and level anything with a greater tilt than 30 degrees.

Novelty ammo has already been done. Chrome Book 2. There was alot of different ammunition hidden away in different books.

I could check the page numbers if you want.

-Chrysalis

heh, figures...

still, i dont see catalyst doing such a major reworking of the damage system any time soon...

and for the record, SR have a "consistent" back story. the first couple of revisions was more action movie then what we see today...

so that extra-damage revolver may be a classic within SR thats left in for nostalgic reasons...

imo, SR walks a fine line between D&D with guns and traveller. to much of either and it will not be SR any more...

those are bulk prices. street price in your average 3rd world hell-hole will be about 200 USD,

I like to pick up those spiffy "2008 gun buyers guide" magazines you see in the gun section at your local grocery/bookstore. I tell my players that if they don't see something they like in the book to look through one of the buyer mags I have. These are great because they list a guns stats (caliber, weight, mag capacity, accessories, etc), MSRP, and have a photo of said gun. I give it the damage code of a similar gun in the game so a .45 like a 1911 is 5P like the predator, a .50 like the deagle is 6P like the super warhawk, an Ar15 or similar .223 assault rifle is 6P like the FN HAR. Then just use the listed mag capcity and adjust price accordingly.

That make a desert eagle 50 a heavy pistol with 6P damage, -2 AP, SA, 7©. Now since it's a "vintage" gun you wont be able to buy it at your local weapons world, lets give it an availability of 8R, and since the current list price is 1249-1749$ let's say it's around ¥800-1100, it is an antique after all. So there you have it, an over priced, crap for ammo gun that will probably fuck up your wrist after using it for a while... sounds accurate to me.

I didn't read the whole thread so apologies if this has already been covered.

Nice classic weapons!

Since everyone (or at least plenty of someones) are arguing over which caliber the Predator should be I'd just like to add that there is a canon reference in one of the books: Predator and Prey.

The Predator fires a 10x30mm cartridge.

Now compare that to a 9x19mm, a .40 or even a .45 and it should be significantly more powerful. Especially if we assume it's a high pressure cartridge for strong, modern guns.

SPOILER: Predator & Prey adventure.

For real world-related firearm topics, SR canon references usually serve more as an example of what something clearly is not, than what they claim.

Essentially a 10mm Magnum Round. How sweet it is.

If I had a handgun like that, I'd have it modified so that I could use a beta c mag with it. That way my handgun would look rather phallic.

http://coffeeandcapitalism.com/blog2/wp-co...ck-beta-600.jpg

I've done it, and I am very pleased with how my system works.

And for the record, the changes are not so great that the system is unrecognizable. Quite the contrary.

Thats about right, if you talk to any Arms dealer worth his trade, the gun is free with a large purchase of ammo. Its like drugs. The first hit is free.

Interesting, know any others? Perhaps we need a canon calibre thread. I'll see if I can dig up a few references, like the 1.5mm flechette for the Raecor Sting (grl.32).


Raygun assigned the 10mm Auto (10x25mm) to the Predator so it's probably reasonable canon.

heh, sounds like they used to work for gillette. give away the handle, sell the blades at a premium

The .38 and the .357 Magnum have a difference of 3,43 mm between the lengths of their cartridges. The two handle rather differently when shot from the same weapon.

Yup, well, not free, but the ammo rapidly outprices the cost of the gun if you actually shoot much.

Just a quick thought on the vintage firearm statting, at least for SR4, where weapons are a lot more granular:

Assign weapon to it's closest matching type.
Look up the real world clip size.
Remove all accessories.
Require some modification before accepting any modern accessory.
Apply the following rules;
- Vintage firearms have one 3 modification slots (not designed with modern customisation in mind)
- Vintage firearms have 1 rank of gremlins attached (does not stack with any the user has... it's a result of being lower tech, and gremlins is specifically what happens when you use high tech stuff. This just represents being a little more likely to jam or whatever).

Prices are whatever seems appropriate, since in world prices will vary wildly.

Yes, these rules are pretty loose, but they handle the inclusion of older weapons without the need for massive re-statting.

Acceptable accessories will generally be lasers sights, external smartlink, scope, foregrip, sling, and stock / shock pad. Maybe a few others (can't remember). They'll all have to be custom fitted, since ones specifically made for the make and model of gun probably won't exist, or will have to be bought in from a specialist anyway. On the whole, I'd suggest adding 50% to the cost of any accessories to account for this.
Silencers will be particularly difficult, as the fitting for a silencer is gun specific. The barrel has to have the right mountings.