I'm just wondering how you can justify charging a character who acquired a transgenic trait through inheritance essence for having the DNA?
They were conceived with the genetic material, and their spirit as never known the body not to have it? This concept of charging essence for DNA the fetus had before it existed would so invalidate evolution its not even funny. It would mean the changes required to go from one species to the next would acquire enough essence loss through mutations that the entire species would die out from essence loss.

I don't rule it as essence loss and I have not seen any thing that says you do.

Not at all. It takes a few generations for Gaia's noetic field to catch up and incorporate a new template. During that time, new generations will tend to be a bit less Essence-robust than their progenitors. When that template wasn't even created through the natural processes of Gaia's noosphere, it's reasonable to assume that that incorporation might take even longer, if it ever happens at all.

Earth has a noosphere? But isnt that a pysic field made up off the subconses of the inhabitants of an area how would DNA meaningly effect that plus psionics dont exist in SR.

As a very common mechanism for genetic exchange is retroviral insertion into the germ cell line, I'd like to know how the spirit is going to know/care whether the virus that did it was natural or man made? The simple fact of the matter is that it is possible to put enough naturally occurring genes into a genome in two separate such that they can't actually have kids because it would inherrit both sets of genes and have -ve essence from birth. But all the genes were already present in the world before the was created and gaia's noosphere or whatever would already be familiar with them.

Are you looking for a game world answer or a game system answer?

The game system answer is either - game balance. Playtesting feedback showed that not charging essence was too much of an advantage. If you think it won't then, it's pretty trivial to house rule the issue.

Now, in the game world, the term "essence" is fairly meaningless. One rationale for death due to excessive augmentations is that the body departs too far from its intended form. This is a case of basically, going back to Platonic idealized forms. It's pretty easy to posit an argument mixing predestination and the idealized organism that dictates that the "soul" just doesn't fit quite right in a genetically modified form.

Is that argument consistent with modern science as we know it? Of course not. I regularly work with transgenic mice that have dozens of different genetically engineered modifications. They're not particularly healthy, but that's not due to "essence" changes. It's due to the fact that they're models for human disease. The concept of essence simply isn't consistent with modern science as we know it. There's no arguing that. It's a game balance mechanic, and if you try to over analyze it, it breaks down.

Then a better question might be how many generations does it take of X new genes being in the human genome for them to become 'normal' and essence to return to 6?

Another way to deal with it fluff-wise is to dis-assume that the genetic alteration occurs in a way that is reproductive.

I think of it a little like this: the gnes genes are inserted into the gene sequence, but only in the cells that require it. The corps didn't want their gene-mods to go into people who weren't paying the liscencing fee. It's hard to control a self-reproducing product. So genemods do not automatically pass on to the next generation. The mods simply don't effect the reproductive cells.

However, in some people the retrovirus that gave them their genetic modification developes a symbiotic relationship with the host, continuing to stick around. If this happened to a man, their sperm may have their genetic code retrovirused, but it would be after it's creation. In a woman, the fetus would be exposed to any retrovirus still in her system altering it's DNA. In either case, the origional template of the new generation is overwritten the exact same way as the DNA of their parent was. A true full gene mod might eventually be developed or evolve out of what the corps create, and that might work differently in regards to essence. But that's not the kind of gene-mods the corps mass produce.

Problem with your idea is that if it infects the males sperm then the child will have always have had the gene, and no one honestly thing human life begins preconception, otherwise human males would be guilty of genocide everyday of their lives as millions of sperm are not used and simply recycled. Also if sperm can be infected, then the cells which make them likely can also be infected as well.
In addition I can only think of about a dozen ways to get around them intentionally not infecting your reproductive tract including having a new one cloned out of your own cells which you know have been infected.

...a good way to handle it would be to not apply an essence cost to the one free Genetic "treatment" the character receives as a result of this quality. Then again the essence costs of most GeneWare are already pretty low (and subject to the 1/2 essence rule if the character also has cyber implants). The only real concern I see here would be for an awakened character with the quality.

Masturbation is murder.


In game justification isn't going to work very well at all. It is just a game mechanic and it can be safely houseruled into oblivion.

Not charging essence is a hell of an advantage if the player munches it out. My personal favorite is to take a permanent genetic infusion of a genetic heritage. There are also genetic modifications that are totally useless 99% of the time and simply aren't worth the cost except for either a gimmick character. Microgravity adaptation, for example (any enviromental adaptation, really). Those are prime canidates for essence-free genetic heritage.

Please, Think of the Kittens.

The Devs have stated over and over that what gear is published is not only for Shadowrunners but Joe Saliryman. Just like the CyberZombies section, how many characters at creation can be created in RAW using those rules.

Now there is a game being run that Hot Climate adaption is/would be a big help.

Also Masturbation is self expression.

WMS

The munchy possibilities starts to happen if/when they allow bioware to be genetic enhancements, then a character takes a level 2 synaptic accelerator at chargen for 10BP. But the fact of the matter is charging essence for inherited traits screws over evolution too badly to make any sense.

Ok here is an idea. One thing I assume is that none of the stats (except maybe initiate grade) are actually fix. No one really thinks that all the STR 3 humans out there can bench press exactly the same amount. We except that they use an artificial scale. Maybe all mutation has an essence cost that closes some percent per generation. That fraction could still be pretty small and cover regular mutation easily. And yes that would mean every thing would have a slightly different essence, but it is easy enough to image system that all balance out around 6 essence.

Just an idea, we all know that the game mechanic of essence was invented to hurt simulationist.

problem is each person have about 4-6 mutations their parents didn't have.

Real question:4-6 whats? Base pairs swapped? wholly new genes invented? Also imagine the decimal range of STR 3 likely around 2.8-3.2 if you give essence that same delta could you suspend disbelief?

No, because everyone has a few mutant base pairs their parents didn't have everyone would have less then 6 essence. And if any of your endogenous retroviruses every replicate, thats another few thousand base pairs of "new" DNA and would drop you a whole bunch more.
It would get worse and worse every generation, and new mutations keep accumulating, and eventually all complex life would reach 0 essence and the genetic line would die out

is it unthinkable the essence from mutation "heals" over a couple generations. Is it imposable to image that this rate of healing is higher than the mutation rate? Also 4-6 what's mutate every generation.

SR has no mechanism for this. If it did, then essence should heal within a single individual.

well there is actually there is the Revitalization "Genetic Restoration" treatment to restore essence in individuals. Just because there are no printing rules for essence restoration in a population doesn't mean it's doesn't happen. The rules also don't say that critters evolve, but you are perfectly willing to imagine that they do.

There seem to be in place rules saying evolution causes essence loss. I can see no mechanical/physical/metaphysical reason that if you inherited gentic material from your parents and your spirit has never known your body not to carry that mutation, but is still in fact unhappy because of it, that the spirits of your children would be any less unhappy with said mutation. So all species go extinct when the mutation pool of the population causes their essence to reach 0. This would have happened somewhere around the horozontal gene transfer era when we were still somewhere between protobionts and bacteria......... and under this mechanic complex life could have never evolved.....
Ya, I have seriously disagree with the devs on this one.

Evolution is a lie told by Satan through his demon servant Charles Darwin. The metahuman races and most the creatures of the world were created whole and fully formed by the glorious Nightslayer. Creatures not created at the dawn of time were created later through the experiments of wizards.

First off I'm absolutely with on the essence loss being dumb. The dev flat out told us though that it was a balance issue. So what I'm trying to do now is imagine how this could not destroy the whole of biology in game. To that end I'm making two assumptions, first that things happen in this world that are not spelled out in the rules, if they are out of the scope of the rules. Second that all the stats in this game are rounded off, but IC there is smoothness. I further assume that essence comes back over a generation or two. If each mutation healed separately I could imagine a system that worked.
If you just want to say the rules are dumb you've made your point. Do you care to think up a fix so you can sleep at night?

Here's the easiest fluff way to look at it... Ma Nature knows what she's doing and can correct the essence loss thru her mutations... Man doesn't know and using science to introduce new genetic code into the pool will result in essence loss... Problem solved.

That is way more deistic an idea than I'm letting my sandbox. Viable if you are cool with that for your game

Considering that the Earth has an Aura which at least creates the implication that it may, itself, be an organism of some kind while Deistic, it might not be the worst explanation.

Oh it is, I said it was valid. Hell the Passions are out there in some form. I'm just saying it's not a thematic choice I would make.

Uh, guys,

I think you're really missing the point. On many, many, many levels.

#1) Essence isn't scientific and most importantly, it is a fictional game mechanic. Characters in the Shadowrun universe don't discuss essence. It's a quasi-mystical term that deals with the connection between body and soul as a game mechanic. Essence has a disconnect with science in much the same way that the Matrix has a disconnect with magic.

#2) Shadowrun is a game that's (so far) about a 21 year period. The game mechanics are designed to be appropriate to that game setting. Evolution happens at a pace dictated by a species' life expectancy and the time frame between many, many generations. A single human generation is roughly 20 years. That means that SR covers, at most, two generations. There is no reason for a Shadowrun game mechanic to address (meta)human evolution.

#3) The human genome has about 3 Billion (3,000,000,000) base pairs. Of those, roughly 2% are coding DNA--meaning, they encode a protein that could have an effect on a person. There simply aren't enough human genomes completely sequenced, even counting the 24 human genomes just generated at Baylor using ABI's SOLiD technology, to have an accurate estimate of the overall frequency of human mutations. Assuming that the rough estimate of 4-6 mutations per generation is accurate, 98% of those mutations would fall into non-coding regions. The odds of those 98% having any phenotypic effect is slim. In the vast majority of cases, if there is a mutation that has an effect, it results in a non-viable embryo -- typically a miscarriage. (Human genetics have had millions of generations to become optimized.) The notion that a mutation like this would have an impact on a 6 point scale, even accounting for accuracy to the hundredth place, is not reasonable.

#4) The genetech that's introduced in Augmentation with an essence cost are things that A) have a game effect, and B) are substantive changes from the characters original DNA. We're not talking about the kind of mutations sustained due to a sunburn or getting 1 too many X-Rays. We're talking about changing proteins (or protein expression) that have a substantive effect on the growth pattern, appearance, and utility of entire tissues.

This really isn't an apples to apples comparison.

It sure must have been fun working in the medlab that developed Adapsin then (Augmentation, p.90).

"As you can see, Mr. Director, the post-implantation double-blind testing conducted by the Astral Visualization Technicians shows that the new protein exchange treatment is reducing the impact against the body's 'rejection limit' by 10% -- all we need is a catchy product name from the marketing department, and our company is poised to seriously increase our profit margin."

"Doctor, I thought that it was abundantly clear to anyone living in the year 2070 that this topic is just not talked about, but now you're telling me that you've spent the last two years not only researching it, but trying to find a way to profit off of it!? You're fired; I expect your office to be cleaned out by the close of business today."

(Except of course, since the product is listed in the book, that conversation didn't happen that way.)

They may not have a perfect understanding of the subject, they may not know the exact cost of that delta grade implant out to the third decimal place, and they may not even refer to it as essence, but I assure you, they do discuss it.

LAMO

well, a really good astral check up lets the mage know the exact ammount of essence one has left . .

I just think that for purposes of the perk make it cost
N( cost of gene mod)/5000 = BP
where N = whatever the GM thinks is approtriate, likely between 2 and 5
Let them have it free of essence cost. I can't justify you're spirit being that unhappy about it, but it would be really good, aviable only at chargen, and should cost a whack load of BP's

Really, Genetic Heritage for modifications other than Immunity shouldn't be available to any character over the age of 8. Immunity genemods were around since 52, sppearing in Shadowtech. The other modifications didn't come about until SOTA:2063.

Unless you're playing later then 2070

Going with your line of thought... natural mutations come equipped with all the Essence loss countering features while man-made mutations don't.

That solves the evolution angle and why subsequent members of various species don't lose essence upon gaining various mutations or when passing them on to following generations.

Just another representation of age old conflict between Natural & Artificial... cyber & normal / magical.

Show me a lab on the planet which could tell the difference.

In our game we ruled that it costs no essence or cash. But, they are restricted to Bioware that has no Levels.

For example. Cat's Eyes or Digestive Expansion would be allowed. But, no Adrenaline Pimps or Bone Density Augmentation.

Why would a lab have to tell the difference? Just cause science can't detect or explain it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. Or, more accurately, we don't know that in 10-15 or so more years of SR timeline that labs wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Since genetech is the cutting edge and the SR 'verse is only now ramping up to provide Essence recovery via that technology, I don't see it as too odd that they haven't answered all the questions involved. One of those questions, as evidenced by this thread, is probably why man-made genetic enhancements seem to alter the magical, auric health of a person.

Man made genetic alteration would use retroviral insertion just like many of natures genetic alterations. We would even use the same viruses, because the ones made by nature to rewrite DNA work so well at doing it, we'd just insert the information we want added to the virus, so if anything its the virus which should lose essence points, as it then goes on to infect and transfer DNA as nature made it to do.

But the man-made changes wouldn't necessarily have the fine tuning of millenia behind them like the subtle changes that occur naturally within nature.

Man-made changes are typically brute force, far-reaching ones. Nature tends to take things in smaller more incremental steps. Those smaller steps give the organisms time to adapt to the changes within their genome and perhaps even use them.

hmm . . if a mage loses essence for SOME reason other than ijmplants, can he get it back with the genetic treatment? if not, can he just take one implant, remove it again and get back up to full essence?
and does he get back magic with the essence without need for initiation?
is his magic attribute capped at the limit of the essence he had lost or is it limited at full essence again?
let's say the mage hits some drugs and then gets some essence sucked out by something vympiric and then suffers fatal physical trauma(at least in SR3 he had to roll against magic loss with near death experiences)
so he is at magic of 3 . . can he simply up his essence to 6 again with the treatment?
does he have to get some little implant and remove it again so he can up from 2 to 6?
is is magic capped at 3 or at 6 if he has his essence back?
questions over questions ladies and gentlerunners!

He can get his Essence back to 6, but I'm afraid he's stuck with his lowered Magic attribute, unless he initiates. It's easy to houserule, though.

Natural ones can be very far reaching as well. Theres a bacteria now which eats nylon. It as a single base pair deletion which altered a metabolic gene changing its function entirely.
Take a human and knock out the myostain gene, your children now all have muscle augmentation level 2, and if you partner had it done as well you children have muscle augmentation level 4
This gene, and its various knockout combinations all occur in nature, in the human population.

Natural mutation appears to have millenia of fine turning behind it because of the Texas Sharpshooter fallacy. The vast majority of mutations are damaging or fatal and the entire mechanism is random. But with a sufficient number of permutations, you can get a significant number of good results.

yes, okay . . but what about the CAP?
can he simply raise his magic to 6 again, as soon as his essence has been replenished?
or does he have to initiate to get his basica magic rating back, even though his essence is at 6 again?

I was talking about the cap. Nothing even remotely suggests it goes up again, so you have to initiate to increase it.

The way I look at it is that evolution is like an R&D lab: A normal, (essence six) organism represents a robust and functioning genetic structure that has been tested over millenia of evolution, shaving away inferior genetic combinations with each generation.

Genetech doesn't have nearly as rigorus a screening process. Any kind of genetic alteration, whether natural or otherwise, could mess up the "holistic integrity" of an organism and result in a lower essence score. With normal reproduction, most of the gene combinations that would result in lower essence have probably been bred out of the species by now, so you're not likely to get cases of "low birth essence" unless something messes with the process.

The reason this doesn't happen with other attributes is that sometimes a low attribute can be helpful for survival. (ie: the dumb, wageslave who doesn't question his place in the world has a much better chance of surviving than the ex-corp shadowrunner who couldn't stay in his cubicle.) Essence, on the other hand, is pretty much the measure of how well your body keeps itself alive, so higher is always better.

In fact, isn't there a negative quality somewhere that starts you with less than 6 essence?

On a less serious note...



Damn, then I'm a serial killer--cool.

I don't know about you, but I really like the idea of Adrenaline Pimps.

Max Magic = (The lowest score your Essence has ever been) + Initiate Grade