SOP, or Sons of the Patriots, a great computer control system that regulates the bodily systems and emotional reactions of soldiers in the field via a vast nanomachine network. The combined effects of the system work like Damage Compensators, Skinlink, Skillwires, and a number of nanomachine suites in the soldiers, creating highly effective soldiers at a low cost and with little training. Weapons are ID-tagged to the soldiers and cannot be used by anyone else, and that same ID tag system can lock those guns down if need be, so that no one can use them at all. That is just the hardware part of the system. The software end is that the nanomachines in the soldiers act like a personafix system, regulating the soldiers' emotional reactions to the horrors of the war around them and what they do themselves in the war. No more stress induced breakdowns, no crises of conscience, no fear; just a merciless soldier.

What effect could a system like this have in the universe of Shadowrun?

I think there is a snag in your plan. Nanotech isn't all that cheep, and you'd have to maintain the facilities required to implant it and pay all the maintenance. At some point it would be more cost effective to just train mooks.

If one of these guys (plan A) costs more than handing out a case of ARs and some combat drugs to a half dozen mooks (plan B), than the nano solider needs to be at least 6 times as effective or Plan B is cheeper.

Now if you are trying to build something like special forces operators, this might be a viable option. I just don't see these guys being a cheep replacement for your average solider.

It's not my plan per se, but what happens in MGS4. I was wondering about the effectiveness of it in the world of Shadowrun. I know that it is cheaper to load mooks up with drugs, but that also decreases the long term effectiveness of said mooks. Overdoses, addiction, and increasing tolerances quickly raise the cost of the drug route, as well creating soldiers that can only run for so long before the aftereffects kick in and they are worse off than they were before the drugs.

Personfix, Skillwires, nanotech, drugs, a network that controls all... well... Deus, anyone?

Yes, any of that can be done (and has already been done) in SR, but it is not cheap at all.

I know it can, and has, been doen in Shadowrun, but I was wondering what you all think the social and corporate effects this would have in the SR universe if it were implemented on a large scale.

You should clarify what you mean by "implemented on a large scale". Military applications might be interesting. Spies, assassins, all that kind of stuff could benefit from that, but it's not really effective to use that on Jow Average to make him Joe Hivemind. Regular social conditioning is cheaper and works just fine, so you need to be some really weird wanker if you need that kind of control over you population.

meh, so they burn out, you grab another half dozen guys to replace them with promises of extra combat pay, it's still cheaper than having everyone with nano tech, skillwired soldiers, etc and all controlled by a super computer.

actually, second hand skillwires are pretty darn cheap if you can get your hands on them. it gets even cheaper if you can recover them from your lost troops

and you have to reinstall them and that takes time as they recover from surgery, etc. forget, I'll have my hordes of cheap ak wielding minions attack your surgery sites and drag off the bodies of your soldiers so you can't recover the skill wires also.

Really, is it that much cheaper? no, not really unless you really want to suspend the disbelief of surgery costs and recovery times, especially skill wires. so yeah, sure, you're version is cheaper then in your views, while mine is more not cost efficient. whatever.

The costs of surgery and the downtime for recovery are cheaper though than the time and resources needed to train soldiers to the skill levels that they can get out of skillwires.

Also, re-thinking the way that the nano's work in MGS4, the same thign can basically be done with skillwires, a personafix, and damage compensators. Nanomachines can be cut from the equation in SR then, making the cost far more reasonable. Although once I get a chance to get Unwired a TacNet system will be added to represent the tactical applications of the SOP program.

Also just a note, Being a huge MGS fan. Nano's in Metal Gear work completly different then in SR universe. Since in MGS they are cheap and can be injected into a person without any surgery. Not to mention there is no need to replace them as they live forever unless flushed out of the system in MGS, they use the person's body as a power source.

But I seen this post and thought of something similar along those lines as well, As my characters are involved in something that I have a chance to add something along those lines.

I've been also trying to create a working Prime Runner version of Raiden? But its hard to do within limits of SR.

Since he isn't cyborg but merely full body cyber, which doesn't leave much room for other cyber and bio though i have put together a pretty bad ass Raiden. I was going to post a build and get people's input. (But that will be later)

It's a cool idea running a SOP system in SR but the technology difference between the two makes for issues in balance. Or making up new tech just for it.

When did Raiden go cyber? Forgive me if I'm forgetting something but I haven't kept up with the guy since his naked cartwheeling days and it's been a few years since I played that game either.

Back to what Trigger was asking, I think the social and corporate effects would be pretty much the same as any other new tech development--with an added layer of "Meh, what do you expect."

Socially, I doubt anyone would be surprised by this--there've been rumors about invincible teched-up soldier-drones for years, especially after the unveiling of biodrones and the stirrup interface. This is really just the next step in the technology.

On the corporate side, you can expect the usual mix of espionage, sabotage, and political maneuvering leading up to and following the product's release. Then come your usual batches of outraged citizens and ardent supporters. All in all, not that different from any other new product: The shadows get a little meaner, the old-timers shake their heads and remember back when everything was "simple", and then everybody gets on with their lives.

Of course, there'd be a race to see who could get the project out of development first, who could go public first and take credit as it's "designer". (When really it'd be a collaborative effort--due to all the ideas "shared" between groups via industrial espionage.) There'd also be a race to develop countermeasures and exploits--it'll be hilarious the first time some hacker subverts the control software and makes entire squads do the zombie dance from "Thriller".

Over all, I see 4 main camps developing out of this thing:

1: The guys who first introduce the technology to the public, now in damage-control mode due to:

2: The second group to go public with it, using the tagline of "They may have opened Pandora's box, but we'll make sure the tech is used wisely."

3: The "Does your life suck? Consider mindless servitude as an alternative to suicide." camp,

-and-

4: Those who go the borg route: "We are perfect, we are one--sign up today and you can be perfect too."

Also expect the occasional cult and wacky recreational uses for hivemind tech to spring up. Particularly adult uses. Imagine finally talking your wife into that threesome--as long as she gets to be both women.

One application runners might find interesting is the "One Man Army" approach: Use a single, highly trained soldier instead of an ai control program--security riggers in meatspace! (And their Shadowrunner counterparts.)

Gives the "Agent Smith trick" a whole new meaning...

Eh? Did I say these guys would be trained? Oh heck no, I'm flooding the field with lots of hyped of grunts with minimal training, lots and lots of combat drugs and lots of assault rifles. Sure, I'll give them the quick AR training of how to use/clean the gun and let them watch a quick how to for urban warfare and then let them go. maybe the survivors will be someone to fear, trial by fire.

Grunts will always be grunts, but what about hive-minded special ops teams? I wouldn't see this replacing your average rent-a-cop, but an elite team with with computer-controlled tactical precision?

Sounds like you guys are thinking of different types of security forces...

He goes the Gray Fox way and becomes all cyber-ninja-y inbetween MGS2 and MGS4. He is pretty freaking badass that way if you ask me.

might I suggest people read some of the short stories in Axiomatic by Greg Egan, or perhaps Quarantine or somesuch by the same author, about 15 years old and the Priming neural nanotech in that is basically the same thing, a series of nanotech switches that subvert or bypass unhelpful emotional mental or physiological input. really clever stuff written by an ex quantum physicist (iirc)

As above, Raiden got hurt during Shadow Moses Incident (i.e MGS2) - (MGS3 was really MG1 you played Big Boss, and how he became Big Boss) after that he was a lone wolf operative and trained various locations and hot spots around the world. I can't remember when but it was the Patriots that cybered him up via ArmTech. But he is insane makes Grey Fox look like a Bust-a-Move from SR-Aresenal book. (He also emits electrical Shocks from his body now like Projected Electro Skin or Shock hands (looks like lightning bolts its kewl).

I'm almost done working on his stats, I'm going to run a mission with him as a run away super solider. With my group either being called to capture him or assist him.

Stats are hard to flush out, since he isn't a borg. So I had to use Fully Customized Cyberlimbs; Full Body Suite (Arms, Torso, Legs, Skull) though even with delta ware doesn't give you much to work with and still make him badass.

Though if i remove the skull, i got more play room to work with. I will post the build today or tomorrow and get everyones feedback.

Cyborg Ninja = cyberzombie. Move-By-Wire 3, 4 cyberarms (rather than 2 arms and 2 legs)*, a cybertorso and an implanted commlink will go a long way to eating his Essence. Plus an implanted super-taser.


*: solely because he has prehensile feet.

True, But he isn't grey fox, greyx fox was a cyborg. Raiden isn't he is using cybernetic implants I did make some builds using cyborg/cyberzombie stuff but it didn't feel right. And there is a implant for feet i was going to use it but decided not to, since its only a prehensile heel on his cyber boot(leg)

In my build i had to use alot of Bio, since the full cyber took alot of essence, even as delta, and the bio being least its halved before adding which gives me more room too work with.

Nitpicky, spoiler note:



As for Raiden, it's rather perplexing. He reappears out of nowhere more machine then human. Snake has yet to compare him to Grey Fox, and everybody else seems more concerned about his white blood substitute then the fact he's a fucking robot.

Shadow Moses was Metal Gear Solid 1 chronologically, so unless I haven't hit something yet, I don't think Raiden got demolished during the Shadow Moses incident, gets cybered up, reverts back for two, and then throws the chrome back on for GotP.

Errr ya i made a mistake, I meant Big Shell not Shadow moses...

The guide states that Raiden did it out of guilt for Sunny after Big Shell. I don't know. It sounds a little crazy.

Raiden totally is using cyber implants. Even ignoring the white blood, he's had most of his body replaced with cyberstuff. In his last scene, you actually see the barcodes on the synthetic cyberstuff they replace the old robostuff with. He's a full-body-replacement cyberzombie. Which would also explain why he's so damn emo!