Most folks complain that the lack of using attributes in RAW hacking means that hackers don't need Logic.
But as has been observed in other threads, skills are expensive in 4th edition.

So, looking at the rules, Hacking, Cybercombat, Computer, and Data Search are all allowed to default.
So, if you have a Logic 5, and 2 levels of cerebral booster, you can effectively have all of those skills at 6 for no additional expenditure?
And if you use an Agent for basic EW tasks, then whether you need Hardware and Software at all depends upon the character concept, not hacking?

(I haven't decided if this is a good thing, or a bad thing. And it appears to apply almost equally to Technomancers, except that they need software for Threading, and may not be willing to lose the resonance to the biowear.)

Does this match other peoples understanding of this aspect of RAW?

(This leads to the idea of someone who at start buys 6+2 logic, and is better with those skills than anyone who actually uses the skills themselves on the Matrix. That's why I think this as the opposite of the usual concern.)

Thank you,
Joel

Defaulting on those skills is Program Rating - 1. By RAW, Logic has no effect whatsoever while using programs.

Why? The RAW is Program Rating + Skill.
the Skill is allowed to default (I am removing from consideration the few skills that are both relevant and italicized in the skill list.)
The rule for defaulting is that you use "the linked Attribute - 1"
the defaulting text on page 110 says that some skills are too complex, and that the skill description indicates this.
the Hacking description says that the linked attribute is Logic.
It specifically says defaulting: yes.

So it looks like you can default hacking, and would use the linked attribute - 1.
I realize that is odd since the attribute normally does not affect the test at all. But it is what the text seems to say.

So how do you conclude that this does not apply? Yes, I realize that by page 208 it says that you use the program in place of your attribute in conjunction with your skill. But that text does not say anything about what happens when you do not have the skill.
There may be something in that chapter that talks about what happens when you do not have the skill, but I can not find it.

(given the assumption that folks seem to have grade 3 stuff, and that "everybody" does datasearches all the time, it would be really weird if that were a two die test. Particularly since 7/36 of all 2 die tests are critical glitches.)

If in the absence of skill you used program-1, then it seems odd that some program related skills are listed as defaulting, and others are not. Presumably, under those rules, any program could be used, without skill, at program - 1.

Yours,
Joel

Defaulting is Linked Attribute - 1

Program Rating is used in place of Linked Attribute in all program tests.

Defaulting on such a test is Program Rating (aka "linked attribute") - 1.

Once again, by RAW, Logic is never used with these tests.

I guess I am left wishing RAW actually came out and said what you say it means.
If the Matrix chapter said anything about how Matrix use is to be figured in the absence of skill, I would be fine. But since defaulting is described separately, I am somewhat cautious about extending the interpretation. (It says you can not function without programs.)

I suspect that you are correct about what the rules intend.
It makes it rather hard to imagine how folks function in a society that is so dependent upon this.

And I rather liked this idea since it gave some way to have a character who was focussed on Matrix work and was point effective.
Otherwise, as has been pointed out in other threads, most tasks should be performed by grade 4 agents at chargen, replaced by grade 6 agents when you can afford them.
If we want the matrix to be background, I suppose that works.
Or, I suppose I can use a complete set of house rules.
(And if I need a full set of house rules for hackers, then I need technomancers to fit with them.)

You seem quite certain that the rules mean that stats are NEVER to effect Matrix operations. (ignoring technomancers.)
While I would like to disagree, there sure isn't any text in RAW I can point to that will do so.

Joel

PS: I guess the pseudo-counter example would be scan. the book says that you need to scan to find anything to talk to. It also says that comlinks have a scan 1. So we have to assume that scan 1 is useful to most people. A commlink that can not talk to anything is useless.
But if in the absence of skill you use program-1, then most folks have a 0 dice scan pool. (Conversely, if you don't need scan, why are they giving away 100 nuyen in program with every commlink.)

It does, indeed. While some people let hackers default to their skill when they lack gear, if you don't have a proper suite of programs some things just aren't going to work. For example, sure you can just roll Hacking -1 to break into a system, but the firewall has a threshold ZERO test to detect you and trigger an alert. Not very useful, and not a good idea to encourage players to do this sort of thing. It's nice for the odd jury-rig sniffer, though.



There's no roll to look up publicly accessible nodes in your signal range. You just push a button and it gives you a list. John Q. Wageslave might get frustrated by a large list in a crowded area, but 14 year old Jimmy Cracker with his Computer 1 skill has no trouble using the built-in filters to find people to play Mario Kart with at the mall.

I don't have my books with me so no actual checking of facts, but here's what me and my group think:
Skill checks: Attribute+Skill; if no skill: default on attribute-1...
Matrix checks: Program+Skill; if no skill: program; there is no defaulting because it is no skill check...
Does this make sense?

The rules are flat inconsistent and vague on what happens when you don't have skills or programs.

The rules flat out say that you can default on your major matrix tests. This could be interpreted as giving you Logic-1 instead of the skill, or as giving you an additional -1 penalty over the effective rating of zero in the skill.
The FAQ also says that you can default on not having a program. I have no idea what that means, but it could be interpreted as meaning that you are able to substitute an attribute-1 for the missing program.

So in short, if you have Logic 3, Browse 3, and Datasearch 3, and you make a Browse check, you roll 6 dice (Browse + Datasearch). That is clear.
If you have Logic 3, Browse 3, and no Datasearch, then you either roll 5 dice (Browse + Logic-1), 3 dice (Browse + nothing), or 2 dice (Browse -1). That's up for debate, and anyone who tells you they have the ultimate answer is a liar.
If you have Logic 3, Datasearch 3, and no program at all, you either roll 5 dice (Datasearch + Logic-1), 3 Dice (Datasearch), 2 dice (Datasearch -1), or you can't even make the test despite the fact that the FAQ says that you can. This is an even dimmer area of gray.
And finally, if you have Logic 3 and no Datasearch or Browse, then I don't know. 2 dice maybe (Logic-1)? 1 die (Logic -1 for defaulting on a skill, -1 for defaulting on the program)? Noone knows.

But obviously this can be really big and important as a topic for a hacker, because frankly Logic is ranked on a 1-10 scale and programs are ranked on a 0-6 scale. Even more important for a Technomancer, because Sprites only have a very small list of programs and they don't even have standard attributes which might be linked to skills. What happens when a Fault Sprite has to make a Matrix Perception Test? It doesn't have a Logic value, a Computer Skill, or an Analyze Program. It's what, triple defaulting to nothing? I don't even know.

-Frank

You can't use a matrix action without the program, unless you have the Intuitive hacking qua;ity, which you would need to buy seperately for each action.

Q: Are programs optional?
A: No. Yes.

-Frank