Edit: Grr. Typo in the subject. "Need help understanding how they work."
Edit 2: Thank you to Dashifen for fixing the subject.

One of my players keeps asking me if you can hack a credstick to increase the nuyen in it, clearly as a quick way to get rich.

From a gameplay perspective, I'm not allowing it. Afterall, if you could do that, then why would any hacker or technomancer bother becoming a shadowrunner (assuming he or she is not in it for the adrenaline rush)?

That said, is there anything in the rules that would prevent someone from trying to hack a credstick to increase the value on it?

Once a credstick is issued its value from a bank, can you legally transfer more nuyen to it, or are you only able to spend the nuyen on a credstick and not replenish the nuyen?

You can't increase value, but you can attempt to Copy a Credstick (Unwired pg 95)

Forgery + Edit Test (Forgery Rating x 24, 1 day)
(-1 Penalty for every 5,000 or part there of)

When its used make an opposed test between the Forgery Rating and the verification system (typically 1-6).

If the counterfeit wins, you're good... Otherwise you better start running.

You can put more on a CredStick. Easily. Transfering funds between CredSticks is often how Biz is done.

As for hacking Credit, it can be done, it's very difficult, takes weeks, if not months to do it, and any real bank or high-end store will break it in a moment.

If you're playing SR 4th, then this is a good reason to buy Unwired, because that's one of the rules in it!

@Nightwalker: Thanks. I don't have Unwired, yet, so I didn't know about that rule, although I do know about the Forgery rules in the main rule book, which used Forgery + Agility to clone a credstick. I'm glad to see that Unwired made the rule more reasonable.

@CanRay: Hmm, so you can transfer funds to a credstick? The rules are unclear about that, but the book sounded like once a bank issues a credstick, that's all the nuyen it'll ever have. Oh well, either way works, I guess. And yes, I am playing SR4.

Often in the stories (Both in sourcebooks and novels) people transfer credit between credsticks all the time. So, I just go off of that.

The way I run it (And understand it, but, hey, I could be wrong!), the CredStick is the size of a Pen, with a LED Display on top to show the amount, and a Thumbwheel underneith.

You "Thumb" the amount you want to transfer, and push the wheel to lock it in. At the other end of the Credstick is a metal cap (Probably cheap steel), you touch the two ends together, and the transfer goes through. Just like passing money between each other if it was physical. There's no confirmation that the Cred is good, it just goes through.

At stores and the like, you thumb in the amount to pay, and slot the CredStick into the CredStick slot on the counter. It links up with the Bank the store does business with, and checks the Nuyen's Serial Number to see if it's good. Depending on the service bought, and the equipment the store has on-site, it has a chance of noticing the Cred it bad (If it is forged nuyen, that is. If the Cred is good, no issues.).

If it's a large purchase, the Bank might ask for an additional check to make sure you are you, and will ask for a Thumbprint, Retna Scan, Quickie DNA Scan, whatever. If a place is selling that high-end stuff, they'll have the equipment to do that. (Like going in and buying a car with a Credit or Debit Card. They're probably going to check more than just your Signature!).

CredSticks have a serial number as well, and often will aquire a history (Just like SINs), and you occasionally have to get rid of them. Luckily, that's easy. Toss it to a Bum with some Nuyen still on it so he can get drunk and forget your face. After all, they need them to panhandle.

Can you imagine thumbing the wheel for, say, 1 million nuyen?

Anyway, that sounds reasonable, CanRay. I'll can go with that. Thank you for explaining that.

Fixed

When your Credsitck has that much, you click to move up the digits.

Ones, Hundreds, Thousands, Hundred Thousands, Millions.

Transfering it to another CredStick, however, requires that it be one that's rated to take 1 Million Nuyen!

@Dashifen: Thank you!

@CanRay: That's true, but seeing how all credsticks cost only 25 nuyen regardless of the type, it's easy to get one that will hold 1 million nuyen. Seems to me that every shadowrunner should have such a credstick just in case.

Yes, it only costs 25 nuyen, but if they're going to hand over something like that, then they're probably going to want some kind of history on the person.

The cheap CredSticks, sure, they'll hand them out like candy! "Get a free toaster and CredStick with every Chequing account" type thing. But the higher end ones, they'll want to know you.

I hadn't thought about that. I mean, doing a background check on someone wanting such a high value credstick. Cool; that'll be something good for me to keep in mind. Another nice surprise for my players, if they aren't careful.

Think of it like getting a Credit Card.

The High-Interest Store Card you get at Ultra-ValueMart will just check to make sure you live where you live so they can send the collection agency after you.

The Platinum Card is going to be a bit more in depth.

Ruby-encrusted orichalcum casing is higher end. The ability to hold more nuyen is not.
It is important to remember that they are two types of cred. The standard credstick is basically an E-wallet with your ID and credit card numbers. Transactions come out of your bank account. And then there is certified cred, which is a whole different animal. A Certified credstick holds electronic banknotes which are legal tender for all debts public and private. There is no need to have accounts, the cash is literally on the stick, much like E-money today such as visa cash, dexit and Octopus Card. Though certified cred has unique identifiers by necessity, and thus can be traced, it is not directly tied to any individual's identity and thus is the prefered method for quiet transactions. It should be possible to forge these electronic notes, but due to strong cryptography and verification systems it should be far more difficult to do so than forging paper notes is.

Registered CredSticks have been supplanted by CommLinks by 2070. But there's probably still a few around used by the Elderly who think that this Wireless Matrix thing is just a Fad.

Nooooooooooooooooooo, I can't be refering to aaaaaaaaaaaaaaanyone here.

I'd beat you to death with my cane, but my arthritis is acting up, so I'm just going to shoot you with it instead. Hold still, the old wired reflexes make me twitchy.

Nice, A.H.

I always told the players it used two system; firstly, a very powerful cryptographic algorithm. secondly it was connected to a series of banks, thus each credit stick was associated with an anonymous account.

transferring of funds are then handled in one of three ways;
transfer between two anonymous users.
transfer between a registered user and an anonymous user.
transfer between the bank or retail and the anonymous user.

the card itself stores a temporary history of transactions. this records the working total on the credit stick itself. this allows the credit stick to interact between other credit sticks with out having to phone home. the history is highly encrypted. any discrepancies with the cards history and the central finical server will black list the card. this will prevent the card from working with any card that is up to date.
when the credit stick has funds transfered between a registered user and an anonymous user, the registered user contacts the finical establishment with both the transaction as well as the current history of the anonymous user. the finical institution has a known amount of money designation to anonymous credit sticks, this amount is updated as information about the anonymous credit stick is relayed to the finical institution.
finally when the credit stick is used at a retail store, or any business front, it connects and updates with the finical institution. this makes all legitimate purchases update the cards finical records and information.

the card itself is encrypted with a public private key, something like RSA. hard and time consuming to crack. each card is associated with a unique id, this id allows other cards and the bank to keep track of that particular card. the card also stores a list of known blacklisted cards, this list is updated along with the finical information on the card.

the key premise here is that cracking the credit stick is very hard, very time consuming, and typically yields very low payoff by comparison.

but thats just my two nuyen

Being kinda new (played a touch of 3rd, but got in for 4th from the start), I agree with hyzmarca (and CanRay).

As far as I get it, there is Certified Cred, which I figured was like the pre-paid debit cards/cash cards that people are running around with now-a-days. I figured they were linked to a bank account somewhere, but the bank account has no attached identity. So whoever has the cred stick can make use of the funds, and when the funds are gone, the account automatically deletes. I also figured that you could add funds to it, but you would need to take it to a bank to add the funds.

So, if the big bad men trace a sale back to your 1,000,000 certified cred, they can track you or freeze the funds (depending on who they are). BUT they wouldn't know who you are. Unless they go and shake down the person who sold something to you.

The other way I thought it might work was that the electronic moneys were on the card, so in effect it was a self contained debit account... I just don't know why, if it worked that way, people wouldn't be able to issue themselves electronic moneys. (But on the plus side, if the money is contained on just the card, no one can freeze your account.)

Anywho, as Hyz said, there was (and probably still is, for people who don't want to use comlinks) the standard credstick. Which was basically a debit card, which was also tied to your credit lines, and had your ID and licenses on it. But since people basically have hand held verions of laptops now (comlinks), instead of using the credstick, they can just directly transfer funds from their accounts, like paying bills over the internets with your home computer.

My question is about cash. Does the goverment still issue it? I think they do, but I assume it's rare. And while it's legal tender, most places just look at it and go "I'm sorry, we don't accept that here." (Kinda like checks are getting to be.) Sure, they technically have to accept it (being legal tender), but what are you going to do about it, when they have no way to process a cash payment?

(FYI, that's why there are more poor in Shadowrun. Since people don't carry cash, you can't give the guy standing on the street corner, who is pretending to be a statue, a buck or two. The death of panhandling is the cause of global SR poverty.)

I'm pretty sure that certified cred isn't tied to any bank account but is, instead, a unique serial number embedded in an encrypted verification system which is, itself, legal tender in much the same way paper money today is simply a serial number embedded on a verification system.



Nah. Poverty has more to do with the rise of a breed of fascio-capito-communism which sees the corporation as the highest form of social organism and fosters disdain for individuals who are not contributing members of the corporation to the point where most wageslaves would just as soon shoot a street performer in the kneecaps than give him a penny.

It really gets down to comparison of the entertainment value I receive per Y spent. Shooting the street performer in the knees costs me roughly 10Y, and is highly entertaining. Can the street performer provide the equivalent amount of entertainment for 10Y in cash? In the interest of preserving the possibility of more entertainment value in the future, my policy is this: all street entertainers get 10Y. If I feel they aren't giving a good return on investment then they get shot in the knees.

Have you been to Waikiki, downtown Honolulu? Industrious bunch of panhandlers they have there. Very few "can I have some money?" Since everyone else has an act (juggling, painting, pretending to be a statue, music) they have to do something entertaining, or they won't get any money.

... while I think alot of them will get kneecapped in your system, I have to say on a whole I do like them. (Specially the break dancers. They tend to be really good. Best I've run into actually.)

Time to upgrade then, isn't it? They have treatments for Arthritis now, and there's a firmware patch you can get for the Wired Reflexes that is Open Source, and doesn't have the stench of the Corporations on it.

I can download it for you if you want, I got full bars in this neighbourhood.

I hope nobody minds me digging out something ancient, but I stumbled upon something in our SR game last night, which might be on interest to it...

We were in a restaurant (more like a Mc Hughes) and our GM decided that today was Credstick-check-day. One of our runners flunked the roll and ended up with less successes than the reader. We then wondered - "and now?"

Well, that's exactly it - and now? What happens? I know that the rules say that if both reader and "Fake ID" have the same result, it starts issueing a few credit history questions, but what happens if it totally fails? Spurred by our group's resident spread-paranoid-and-conspiracy-theories-guy, he threw the stick away (only 2k on it) and decided that his low-level lifestyle (no months payed) and his few belongings in his house (1k max) would not be worth running into the cops at his door.
But is that really what would happen?

To amend this - after reading the third edition rules on this and then checking my second edition stuff - I know that this was a flawed from the beginning. A StufferShack or McHughes would never even care for any background checks, they just want the cash. And most stores who do and who are frequented by us, would only have a level 1 checker, to a max of level 3. So he'd be fine to begin with.

But still, what DOES happen, if the system really cracks his stick?

P.S.: I found a nice page with lots of information grabbed from old rulebooks and some common sense added: http://www.amurgsval.org/shadowrun/credsticks.html .
I really like the idea that Fake IDs, when used, get better over time. Makes sense afterall.

What would happen? Depends on the place.

Say, somehow, the Level 1 scanner at the Stuffer Shack breaks your fake CredStick. First off, have your Troll Buddy smack you upside the head for doing such a crappy hack job.

Next, they'd just tell you you're money's no good, and to get the hell out before they call the Star. Then print out your picture and put it next to the register with the message "Passes Bad Cred" and ban you for life. Maybe send it to a few other Stuffer Shacks as well.

It just isn't worth much more hassle to the Stuffer Shack people. And the Cops aren't going to come running for the 20 problem for the KrillKrunchies, Soybacco, and I Can't Believe It's Not Milk. Unless, of course, the 'Runners get violent, then it turns into a much different crime and the PanicButton is hit.

Now, let's say it's a higher-end business. Let's say... GMC, when you go in to buy that new Bulldog with some Factory Extras after your old one got swiss cheesed by the LMG-Equipped Troll Security Guard with Anti-Vechicular Ammo.

They check your credit (And SIN) with, say, a Level 5 scanner.

If they break your CredStick, but not your SIN, they'll probably apologise to you politely, and suggest you talk to your bank about issues with your account. Something's wrong with the Cred, that's all they know. (Like they scanned a few Hundreds and found a few that were fake. Hey, it happens. That's why a lot of smaller places won't take them.).

If they break your SIN and not your CredStick, then it'd depend on the person in question. And just how close to quota for the month he is. It's pretty easy to go, "Oh, right, sorry, transposed a few numbers there, let me check that again, and he's good!" if he hasn't met quota yet, or is hunting after that bonus for most sales in the month. The money is good, who cares about the rest? Unless you're dealing with an Honest Car Salesman (Yeah, I know, but I've seen weirder things happen!), then see below.

If they break both, then they'll have one person call Lone Star (Or Knight Errant/Hard Corps, depending on the current political situation), and stall you until security shows up. Seeing as these are salesmen and not con artists, there's a good likelihood the 'Runner, paranoid to begin with, will smell something bad and bail. The folks there aren't going to risk their lives, but they'll give full details to the authorities. (Bye Bye SIN!).

That's really insightful, thanks CanRay! That sounds pretty much like common sense to me, so just out of personal interest - is it, or is there actually a piece like this in a rulebook? What you described sounds like the most logical thing to expect.

One question regarding this, though. You mentioned "breaking your C.S. but not your SIN". I take it that, depending on the reader or the person behind it, there can be more than one check? Are those always just against your fake ID level? Or is there more behind it that I have missed while reading the stuff in my books?



P.S.: Is it just me, or DO I see a trend to have more information per interesting subject, the further you go down the versions, while newer versions have more variety, but less and less hard facts? Credsticks seem to a few lines in SR3, while in SR 2 & 1, there's at least several pages dedicated to them, both in rulebooks and sourcebooks.

Some of it is from what I read somewhere (I think one of the rulebooks), the rest is house rules that I play by, and stuff I've figured out from reading the novels.


Depends on the money on your CredStick. If the cash is legit, there's pretty much no way to "Break" it, unless you got a Decker/Hacker sniffing the line at the same time and feeds in misinformation. It's like handing over a wad of $100 bills.

If the money is fake, however ("Fairy Gold" in slang terms), then there's a check to see if it's broken. A Stuffer Shack has a Rating 1 security sytem for it, a GMC Lot would have a Rating 3 or 4, a Bank would have a Rating 6 to the Zurich-Orbital Gemeinschaft Bank which is the organization that CREATED Nuyen! (Of course, a small bank would not have a lot of bandwidth to said, and, during busy times, the check might take awhile.). Rules for making fake nuyen are in Unwired for the 4th Edition. Couldn't tell you where it is in the earlier versions.

And then there's a check for your SIN. Which will only happen for major purchases, and that only to make sure your Credit is good or that you're not a wanted terrorist that's going to turn that nice GMC Bulldog into a car bomb. Or to make sure you're the type of person we'd like in our gated community.


I'm thinking they're aiming at letting GMs run the game the way they want to, and not have group rules lawyers go, "But it says here, on page Blah blah blah, that it can't work that way, and whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah! I cry until I get my way because I memorized so many books!".

Of course, I run the game the way I want to anyhow, as long as it's fun for the Players, and any kind of thing like that gets the Stick Of Pain.

This was a good thread, because although the BBB doesn't spend too much time talking about credsticks, it's pretty clear how from a world building and player character lifestyle perspective that better understanding of credsticks is important.

AH needs Gunther Hermann's Skul Gun.

Thing is, the banks are phasing CredSticks out just like they did hard cash before.

Why should good, honest citizens require CredSticks when a good, honest money transfer (That doesn't require the banks manufacture anything, ship anything, hold onto anything, ect.) work just as well?

(Not to mention all the money traffic monitoring that can be done for huge profits? And bank fees per transfer? And...).

That said, I still say individual governments often produce their own currency in some form. In the UCAS, I have "Blueback Dollars". Problem is that at a 5-to-1 exchange rate, it's a royal pain to carry even a few thousand nuyen in tens and twenties.

Also, they're not widely accepted even in the country of origin. People just don't trust paper money any more, it's not "Real" like Nuyen is. (Just like people didn't trust Paper Money when Coins were King of Currency!).

To support CanRay, here's the quote from Unwired: (pg 11)

(emphasis mine)

Unwired also covers other (more anonymous) ways to pay for goods, including ID tokens and certified credit. But the problem with these alternative payment methods in many sprawls is that they aren't commonly used, which means although you may not leave a data trail, who ever you're buying stuff from is certain to remember you.

So there we are.

How long do you think it'll take for Organized Crime to turn from Money Laundering and Counterfitting to actually being the producers of an alternative means of payment for Criminal Enterprises?

"Wait... You mean... Our money is legit now?" "Well, it's backed by something more real than the gold reserves of the UCAS!"

I do find it funny in a way that the gamesystem has aged enough that my SR4 character could theoretically be the grown up offspring (well, college age, roughly) of some of my SR1 characters. Alas poor credsticks, I knew them so well.

Unwired did do a nice job of answering this question. Basically you can't make up money anymore, you can only copy it from somewhere else, and you take a penalty on copy/forge rolls based on how much cash you're trying to copy. Thresholds vary by what you're forging, generally nuyen is on the higher side of the range. Plus interval is kinda bad, once per day or so. It can be done, but in the time it takes you to forge a credstick, you could have probably pulled off 2 or 3 good runs and made the amount you were trying to forge anyway.

God forbid trying to do something greater than 30-50 thousand or so. Copying a million nuyen credstick seems nigh impossible, just from dice pool penalties alone.