My GM informed me that he thought my character was "the worst min/max" ever. I wholeheartedly disagree and want to know what the opinion of the board is. We have been playing for a bit, so the character is somewhat advanced. Sorry if this goes on forever. Character is below:


Race - Ork
Special - Mystic Adept (Hermetic)
Concept - Stealth, Recon, Unarmed Combat

Stats:
Body - 5
Agility - 5
Reaction - 4
Strength - 5
Charisma - 1
Intuition - 3
Logic - 4
Willpower - 5
Edge - 1
Magic - 6

Active Skills:
Unarmed Combat - 5
Spec. Martial Arts
Spellcastin - 5
Spec. Illusion
Infiltration - 4
Spec. Urban
Summoning - 3
Spec. Air Spirits
Perception - 4
Visual
Counterspelling - 3
Dodge - 4
Long Arms - 1

Knowledge Skills:
Magical Background - 5
Botany - 4
Unarmed Combat Styles - 3
Black Markets - 3
Elven Society - 1 (explained in back story)

Language Skills:
Cherokee - N
English - 2
Cantonese - 1
Oz'Ret - 1
Sperethial - 1 (explained in back story)

Contacts:
Fixer 2/3 (gained through RP)
Rigger 1/1 (gained through RP)

Positive Qualities:
Mentor Spirit - 5
Martial Arts - Wildcat - +1 DV - 5
Kick Attack - 2
Finsihing Move - 2

Negative Qualities:
Allergy (Peanuts, Mild) -5
Allergy (Meat, Moderate) -15
Addiction (Deep Weed, Moderate) - 10
Scorched - 5

Magic:

Detect Life Extended
Increase Reflexes
Improved Invisibility
Stealth
Trid Phantasm

Adept Powers:

Critical Strike (6)
Improved Comabat Ability (Unarmed) (2)
Attribute Boost (Agility) (1)
Attribute Boost (Strength) (1)

Foci:

Sustaining Focus (3)

Gear:

Detection Fetish
Healing Fetish
Illusion Fetish
Sunglasses - Flare Comp, Vision Enhancement 3, Thermographic
Earbuds - Audio Enhancement -3, Select Sound FIlter - 3
Commlink - CMT
Subvocal Mic
Remmington 950 - 20 RDS Shot, 20 RDS Slug
Low Lifestyle - 1 month paid
Wire Clippers
Hardliner Gloves
4 Doses Deepweed
Form Fitting Body Armor - Full
Armored Vest
Secure PPP Vitals Protector
Secure PPP Shin Guards
Secure PPP Arm Guards
Hard Hat - Vulcan Cowboy Hat (do an internet search for this one)
Mana Lodge Level 4

The main problem he is having is that I took no specializations at character gen and have been adding them steadily since we started running. He thinks that spending 10 karma to get a +2 to all my stats is cheap. Can't say I totally disagree, but it's in the rules so...

Weak or what? Do you think my character is out of whack, well built, munchkinized, or just nifty? Personally I think there are some serious holes in the character but whatever, I think he is fun.

Backstory is that his mother was an elf mage who was raped by an Ork while on patrol in Southern Tir. Got pregnant, hoped I was born an elf, but I wasn't. Tribe wanted to kill me, but she whisked me away to the UCAS and a Cherokee tribe where I was raised. When I was about 5 years old I was given Deepweed and this allowed me to communicate with my mother who taught me the ways of magic and such. In addition I drew the attention of a powerful Eagle spirit who helped in my training. Character is now running the shadows to make ends meet while seeking spiritual enlightment. Does not eat meat, does not kill unless absolutely needed.

i know why: because charisma 1 and no social skills . . seems as if your GM is a member of the so called stormwind fallacy or something similar . .

Well, you GM is some kinda wuss because the WORSTEST EVAR!!!! your character isn't.

Hell, my orc ganger/sammie has so much more min-max potential than yours does, it's not even funny. Try Body 8, AGL 7, STR 8, level 3 dermal, wired for sound with a clown-face tattoo linked to his speedware and his combat axe "Sweet Lovin" and you get the joys of what my GM gets to toy with on a regular basis. Three actions at up to 15 dice to-hit per swing at Damage 8 AP -1? Yum, yum, yummy...for me.

Yours is just a pretty good JOAT which can be hard to handle as they usually have a moderate answer for just about anything typically found on a Shadowrun. Not too hard to counter if he's willing to stop being a sissy about breaking something off in y'alls hindparts.

In theory you can create a background to explain any character, so the idea of Min/Maxing being defined by a lack of character background is silly.
What I always felt was a more realistic metric for whether or not a character was Min/Maxed was does it make sense for the character to have those particular stats.

For instance you have a one charisma, did you give a reason for why you have a one? Did you include a section that would explain a caustic personality, asperger's syndrome, or just because he stuttering and spits when he talks?

then again, whats wrong with min maxing, its a game, its supposed to be fun, if you have fun by min maxing, explain to your gm that he needs to stop being a dick or something

I really wouldn't say it's min/maxed, or if it is, it's very badly done...
I see several glaring weaknessess and most of the strong points can be improved upon...
My verdict: No.

The low Charisma and no social skills comes from a lack of interaction with people. My character spent most of his formative years on a reservation outside Oklahoma City drugged out on Deepweed talking to to spirits and living in that realm. He has a hard time with leadership (being one or listening to one), finds social interactions and protocol to be retarded (we are playing in Hong Kong...) and generally is ornery and not very talkative. He prefers to not be seen or heard (although I have a tough time playing this out sometimes). I plan to raise his Charisma as the campaign progresses and he spends more time interacting with people.

I just was made to feel like I was doing something wrong, and personally I don't see it. I guess the reason I got pissed about it was because I felt I was going out of my way to NOT min/max the character.

And just for reference - Martial Arts 7 + 5 Ag + Boost (usually 2) + Kick = 15 Dice.

Damage - 4S + 6 Critical Strike + 1 Wildcat = 11S (No minus to AP)

So I am regularly rolling around with 15 Dice at 11S (13 Dice at 11S when Invis) and 3 IPs (Force 3 Improved Init in Sustaining Focus).

Okay, I'm the GM in question. Thanks for trying to make me look like an ass by only telling part of the story, Chris. I really appreciate it.

First off, at no point did I say that it was the 'worst ever' min maxed character...
Second off, I made no comments about the overall character at all. My comments were limited to the following:

"It seems kinda cheap. You spending your first 10 karma on increasing all of your active skill tests by +2 dice seems really unbalanced. I mean, you just effectively increased 5 skills by 2, for the same Karma cost it would take to increase 1 skill from a 4 to a 5."

and...

"Wow, 21 dice in Unarmed Combat 3 weeks after character creation seems a bit excessive."

You want to discuss? Discuss those points, don't make attacks at me.

I made no mention of any other skills. Didn't talk about attributes or qualities at all. And at no point did I say it was the 'WORSTEST EVAR'. Hell, this is the first time I've even seen the character in it's entirety.

For the record, I've seen much worse in Min/Maxing... hell, I've done much worse myself in the 20 or so years I've been playing the game.

Not even close to the worst I've ever seen. The only thing that's an issue is the 1 charisma as others have said. The lack of specializations at chargen _is_ a bit annoying to me now and then as a GM, but I also make use of the BP/Karma efficiency of purchasing after chargen on most of my characters. I usually clear it with the GM though to make sure they won't bug out about the character honing his specific skills of need after.

In any case, I'd just say the GM's being a wanny.

That is, unless you're overshadowing other players with your sudden skill jumps and making them complain, in which case the GM shouldn't have accused you of min/maxing, he should have just talked to you about the problem, if there is one. If it's not hurting anything in the game, then they shouldn't bitch.

The only thing that raises an eyebrow is the 35 points in negative qualities. Two allergies that will come into play very rarely, an addiction to something pretty easy to kick, and scorched on an awakened character who, from the looks of it, won't be spending time on the Matrix? I know you need the points as mystic adepts end up totally strapped for BP but this has a fishy odor to it.

The charisma I wouldn't have a problem with as long as you play the character as totally socially inept.

I find it hard to believe that the GM is grumpy because he thinks the Ork is too powerful. Hes solid, but with no DPs over 14 after specializations, the numbers don't seem too scary to me.

So the GM just has to toss some ranged fire into the mix. No biggee.

Typical (Unboosted) Corp Merc has: AGL 4, Firearms Group 4, Smartlink, and aiming for one minor for 11 dice to-hit. Probably getting initiative if they're wired and "Oops!" bad day at the office for the phys ad guy above...

Relax man, I wasn't trying to attack you. I was just wondering if other people felt the same. And you did say it was the worst ever, whether you were joking or not it's hard to say, hence why it was in quotes. I know I've seen worse.

I really just was curious what other people thought about it if you have a problem with that I apologize. I wasn't trying to say anything negative about you, but was more curious what others thought. Like I said not trying to go after you at all. Where did I attack you?

Deepweed is impossible for my character to kick. It won't happen. He is an addict and that's all there is to it.

Scorched has minus dice to resist effects of other addictions. I put it in there to represent my character being more likely to become addicted to other drugs if he came in contact with them. *edit* looked at the rules and this is not the case, I thought it was a flat -2 dice pool modifier to addiction tests.

An ork who is allergic to meat has social and real world implications. The peanuts thing...well not sure about this one but I didn't want to go with "Silver" or "gold" cause I thought those were lame. Meh.


So yeah Polo...my impression was from you that the character was out of whack, so I just wanted to see what others thought. If it seemed like I was attacking you, sorry man that wasn't my intent.

Yeah pretty much what I thought. If I have time to prep for combat it goes very well, getting jumped by 4 guys in Renraku Red Armor with assault rifles and its a bad day for me, especially if my spirit friends decide to not show up (happens all too often with only 3 dice in magic....)

If you're playing with this GM, why does it matter what anyone else thinks? Its his game that's being run.

I'd punch you in the throat if I found one of my players hoping on DSF as soon as I commented on his character. I mean, what do you think is going to happen? A few posters say that your character is okay and that will justify letting it into someone else's game?

Your GM had some concerns with your character...you should take it up with him and work it out. Seeing that the first thing you do is run to the forums to justify your creation, I'd rather not have to deal with that in a game I was running...

Alright.. I'm sticking to my guns here, because you're the one who brought the issue to a public forum. I didn't say that it was the most min maxed character I'd seen. I'm positive I did not say that.

I did say that spending 10 karma in one shot for a +2 to all of your active skills was one of the worst individual pieces of min maxing that I'd seen before. Those are your core skills, man. Most likely you're really never going to need to make a roll without the specialization in effect, and effectively you saved yourself like 40 karma...

I think that's exploiting the rules just a little bit.

And, yeah... after having a 20 minute conversation with my about my opinion of it, it does sting a little bit to see you badmouthing me on a forum that you know I read.

Seriously if you are that kind of a control freak I wouldn't want to play with you anyway. We had talked about it...several times at length. It had gotten to the point where I was curious what other people thought. Game play has been going on for over a month, character gen was a month before that, so no I didn't "jump on here as soon as he commented on my character" We were talking about specializations, and had talked about them several times, how they seemed a lot cheaper than 3rd addition, about how easy it is to get massive amounts of dice, and I wanted some feedback from other people playing in other games as to what they thought.

He never once said he had concerns about my character really, more about the system in general and what other people were doing. I didn't run on here to justify my creation, at several points I admit to some concerns.

My big conern with 4th addition is that there is absolutely no reason NOT to specialize in every single skill you have. As Polo had said, it seems kind of cheap that for 10 karma you can get ALL your active skills at +2 when it costs 10 karma to raise a single skill form a 4 to a 5.

Personally I could give a rats ass what most people think about my characters backstory and what not, I just was curious what their opinion of a "min/maxed" character was and whether or not they thought this one fell into the relm of that. So far I really like the rules concepts of 4th addition, there just seems to be some stuff that is way out of whack - and specializations are one of them.

This all seems to come from the first sentance when I said that the GM commented my character was "the worst min/max ever" Now was he joking when he said that, yeah probably but there was some truth behind it and I was curious what others thought.

well, maybe he meant that this was the worst try at minmaximing he has seen? O.o
ok, the 10 karma for +2 dice in each core skill is pretty nifty i think ^^

I thing the min/maxines gomes more from the fact that you specialised all your skills with your first karma, becouse that is being pretty min/maxy.

but i do thing that it makes lots of sence(background wice) to specialise most of your skill, becouse really most people are often better with one becifick part of a skill compared to rest of the thinks govered by the said skill.

My Sasha does have specialisations for all the skills in firearm group(semi-automatics, submachineguns and shotguns) becouse it makes sense to me that she would be better with those becifict weapon subcategories, of course she does use weapons not includet to those categories(tasers and machinepistols).
But i bought those in chargen even thought i ofcource could have taken firearms group 3 for allmost the same cost, it just didn't make sense to me that she would be just as good usin pretty much any non-exotic non-heavy weapon.

And same goes for most of the characters i have made.

The massive buying of specialisations once ingame is clearly minmaxing. But thats a very minor form. Those cheap two dice are an incentive to give a profile to the char, so that the skill list can tell a story on its own.

The whole char is not minmaxing at all. Orks would naturally want an Intuition-based tradition, ie druidism. Intuition 5 Logic 2 would have given Ini +2, Perception Pool +2. Physical adepts should go for athletics dodge.

You are aware that a sustaining focus only works for one spell category, in this case Health?

I was not aware of that, but all I have used it for is my initiative spell. Kind of like my not so wired wired reflexes. And yes I also realize that a hermetic mage is not the best way for an Ork to go...but since my mom was an old school hermetic mage, I figured she trained me that way.

*edit* I also re-read some posts by people on this board and think I may have put the GM in a bad spot on this one. Sorry bud, that was not my intention and I didn't mean to prop you up as the antagonist, but I wanted to to polarize the opinions and think I went about it poorly.

As I stated, this has been something we have gone back and forth about and I don't want people out there to think he is a bad GM or anything, I've gamed with him for years and never had a problem, we just disagree sometimes.

And thanks to everyone for all the name calling, I'm sure that is going to help my chances in the next firefight. Much appreciated.

With that charisma he's an antisocial street person or a Bill Gates level nerd. The sort of person you have to take back to a place just to apologise for the last visit and cannot be left alone for any reason if he might have to interact with the public.

Yep... In this thread I was called "a wuss", "a sissy", "a dick", "a wanny", "grumpy" and placed on the wrong side of the stormwind post... all within about 10 minutes. I'd definitely say that's going to impose some situational modifiers.

Does smoking a blunt in the public train station and looking at everyone like they are the ones with the problem sound antisocial enough for you? How about kicking your size 13 boots up onto the Triad Johnson's nice mahagony table before negotiations start seem fairly uncouth (which i didn't take...that would be overkill..). How about walking in with the package you were supposed to deliver completely invisible...dropping the invisibility right in front of the head of a large pirate syndicate and asking for payment on the spot seem a little bit on the road you talked about?

While he might not be a COMPLETE social tard, he is pretty much a fish out of water. Again the Charisma will be raised up eventually...probably to a 3. As much as I like the idea of the insane street urchin and complete nerd being a good representation of a 1 Charisma, I like the idea that my character can justify his improved Charisma by adjusting his social skills to the environment that he is in.

I also see a 1 Charisma as having a lack of confinence in social situations. Say you want about Bill Gates, he has to have some Charisma to lead the worlds largest software company. Personally I think peoples interprations of low Charisma are somewhat lacking in that they never seem to address the fact that a lot of Charisma is force of personality and how you present yourself, not just being unlikeable or weird.

See I'm just playing out that 1 Charisma dude....it's my character...not me...he's the one with the problem.

well, there's allways the risk of something going wrong *g*
had he not started this thread the character would have had a slightly better chance at survival while his player would probably simmer in his own juices over the whole affair . . .
as for the stormwind thing? i might appologize, but i'm a troll, so who would believe me? *g*
i just hate characters, especially new ones, being judged by their stats and not the way they are played . .

that's not a one charisma. that's just plain silliness. i do such things all the time and i've got at least a three charisma

seriously though, buying a sustaining focus to be used exclusively for your extra IP's is a little dickish. so is taking scorched for a character who will probably never have to deal with it.

if i were your GM, i'd just fuck you over on your negative qualities instead of complaining about your build; no deepweed connection (unless your fixer is a straight up dealer, there's very little chance you can score all the time; most black marketeers don't like to get mixed up in more than one type of biz), and situations where there's no good veg food to eat.

(i'm a vegetarian and a pothead so trust me when i say that these aren't un-serious things)

but then, i bet you'd probably complain that your GM is singling you out. that's what most munchies seem to do when they run across a GM who has some stones.

also, like he said, taking up a problem in your personal game on a forum your GM reads is pretty PA dude. the kind of thing someone with a 1 charisma would do...

Huh? How is taking a sustianing focus and having a IP spell cast into it "dickish"???? If you are playing a mage and not doing this you are going to get smoked. I think mages have been using foci for initiative for as long I can remember. Never once have I heard of this being munchkin, stupid, or dickish. As a matter of fact it almost is the reason the sustaining foci exist....

As for the scorched thing, you are right. But like I said earlier in the thread I thought it applied to all addictions.



Two words for you - hydro ponics




Actually no I never complained. We were talking about it, he had an opinion, I had an opinion, I posted here to see what other peoples opinions were. The thing I did wrong was make it seem like I was pissed at him, which is not at all the case. It wasn't a problem until people started calling him a dick, threatened to punch me in the face, and now call me a munchkin. Yeah my dude is a total munchkin, what with his force 3 Health sustaining focus and all....give me a break.

If those are the kind of responses I get to a legitimate question you can bet I won't post them on here again.

The GM seems to have a hang up on the specialisation thing. What is wrong with that? It is part of the game mechanics. If it really irks you that badly just disallow it. The GM is allowed to house rule whatever he wishes. Even if it is "Rocks fall, everyone dies."

The problem with internet forums is that whoever posts first or starts the thread first gets to set the tone. If the player starts the thread, it would seem that the GM is/has a problem. If the GM posts first, the player is the problem.

See? Different people have different perceptions of what actually happens. Sometimes wildly differing perceptions of what actually happened. What I'd say is this: You guys have to work it out face to face. The GM has a problem with specialisations bought in-game with karma. Personally I would not have a problem with that and most people or GMs here do not seem to share that same hangup, but he is the GM and he runs the game.

I think the main problem seems to be that he dumped 10 points of Karma to buy 5 specializations at once, and the GM thought it was a bit cheesy. But the rules (pg. 263) say "It is recommended that a character only be allowed to learn one new skill (or specialization, spell, or complex form) between adventures", so the GM was actually being nice by allowing it at all.

It's the part where the GM allowed it and then labeled it min/maxing that annoys me. I'm sorry, but if you don't want to allow people to add +2 to a bunch of skills, don't allow them to do it. Or talk with them about why they want to do it/think they can justify it rationally, and let them lay out their case.

If they can't convince you, then that's it, you explain why you'd prefer they didn't and if you're really nice, try to work out some kind of compromise. Otherwise, you put your foot down and what you say goes.

It's the job of the GM to control the game for the fun of all, including him or herself. If something is an issue, work it out. Don't allow it to happen, then criticize it after the fact.

Sorry if I'm in some way misconstruing what happened in this particular case, but from what's been said by the player and GM both, this is how I see it.

I think the bad part, from a role playing stand point, is that you bought 5 specializations AT THE SAME TIME. Did you use all five during the adventure? Did you hire five instructors? It's hard enough taking 5 different courses in college, try taking 5 different majors!

For the record, that's not MIN MAX. It is munchkin roll playing.

Gentlemen! You can't fight in here, this is the war room!

This sure turned ugly fast...



Isn't that what negative qualities are for? At their core, they just make you jump through extra hoops in exchange for being more powerful. Whether its just time and nuyen sinks, additional risks of procuring product or pissing off Mr. Johnson, simple plot hooks or, in the hands of RPing GMs and players, a source of full-blown stories. I would think that if a GM wouldn't 'fuck over' his characters about their negative qualities at least to a small extent, he would not be doing his job.


Apologies. I sometimes use 'grumpy' interchangeably with 'irritated'. No offence intended.

The game straight up tells you to buy specalistations first thing with karma as they are

A) Cheaper with Karma

and B) Have the best Karma -> DP Pool exchange rate.

Going ape at people for doing thing straight up encouraged by the system is not a good play.

However can I suggest just rebuilding everyone's character with a 'BP only' system where you spend BP as you advance and get BP instead of karma. Notice that the character we are discussing has almost all his stats soft maxed or at 1 - the optimal BP/Karma exchange rate - as well, so this complaint will become worse over time

The BP only system that will fix all the problems straight up, and improve the quality of the rules overall.

However on a note that will piss of everyone - You specifically cannot farm awakened plants and telesma and shit. No deep weed hydro farms for you. Sorry.

Personally, the Allergies are the things that bother me. When I run a game, I let all the players know that if they take flaws, they will come back to haunt them. No, I wouldn't send armies of thugs wielding peanuts and meat chasing after this character. But I would consider having an important encounter take place in a high class Thai restaurant, where the air is filled with peanut residue. Or better yet, I would set the the big final fight in a slaughter house or meat packing facility. Imagine fighting hand to hand in a room filled with swinging sides of beef hanging from the ceiling by hooks. And if you're allergies are bad enough, you don't need to ingest it. Just breathing or touching the stuff will set them off.

1. I did not buy all 5 specializations at once. I bought 1, then 2, then 2 more after 3 separate runs. 3 karma, 4 karma, 3 karma were the awards. I actually haven't even used the last specializations yet as I just bought them after the last run when he said "that's the craziest min maxing" or something to that effect, to which I said no...that it was just a part of the game, after which I posted on here.

2. He didn't get mad about it. He noticed it, said that wow that's some serious min/maxing and thought it was kind of cheasy, we talked about it and I posted on here to see what other people thought. My opinion is that specializing in everything is kind of weak, but the best way to go karma wise. My mistake here was not telling him first. I knew he would see the post cause he reads these boards, I didn't think anything of it really until people started attacking him and I saw it pissed him off. My bad.

3. The allergies will no doubt haunt me. It is very hard and I already have had problems with it. We met with a triad boss who graciously offered me some of the house dumplings....to which I had to decline. He was most displeased. It will happen continuously and I am fine with that. Removing meat from an Ork's diet is not as easy as it sounds, and gets even harder when the Ork has a bit of an ego problem and refuses to admit he has the allergy....

4. The hydro thing is 3 fold - first I grow my own food in the privacy of my apartment. Second I grow THC and Nicotine because they are major component of Deepweed and help me to alleviate some of the addiction symptoms (hence the blunts). Third I use them as part of my Magic Lodge as it helps me to focus my chi and magical energy better. Yes we have discussed growing Deepweed, but I don't think its possible but we'll see.

5. I can't believe people are perfectly fine with allergies to 'gold' and 'silver' and have a problem with meat and peanuts. WTF.

Well, I will be the first to mention that "Martial Arts" is about the most retarded "Specialization" ever, even if it is in the main book. So being able to punch, kick, throw, ground fight,and grapple (all can easily be seen as aspects of one or more Martial Arts) better all in one shot for 2 karma or BP isn't a bit broken? That's not a specialization, it's a freaking smörgåsbord.

Add to that the fact that the styles don't require you to be specialized and are qualities and I think you have one of the lamest rule sets I've ever seen. I like the mechanics of it, but geeze...

IF I was writing the game my specializations for Unarmed Combat would be - offense, defense, and grappling. That's it. The styles would not be considered qualities, and only certain styles could be taken with certain specializations - ie judo with grappling, karate with offense, tai chi with defense....you know...stuf that makes SENSE.

The problem is then an already underpowered skill becomes weaker because specialization in other skills adds a blanket +2.

Specializing everything is very logical and realistick, but it's just very min/maxy to specialize all your skill after chargen just becouse it's karma effischant especially if that is all you use you karma until you specialized all of your necessary skills.

Most specializations shouldn't give you bonus dice every time you use a skill, becouse you can't allways play for strengths (ie. you probably end up infiltrating somewhere that doesn't count as urban at some point in your shadowrunning career. Or sometimes there just isn't any choice in what gun to use) but ofcource you should try.

I don't get why everyone cares so hard about the 'marital arts' specalisation for unarmed combat.

Its a game in which you can have, like, a monowhip. That does 8P damage. And is pretty much better.

Or more importantly you can have a gun and specalise in automatics and that is better pretty much in every way.

Consider the ballistics specalisation to gunnery too

re: THC and nicotine in deepweed and taking other stuff to manage the symptons. Wtf. Its a drug made of magic kelp that actually changes the structure of your DNA/cells in some way so you can see the magical world.

THC and nicotine have approximately nothing to do with that.

A better addiction that combines those two substances, and is fairly easy to make as a runner with hydro-ponics, is Snuff (aka Indian Tobacco). It is essentially Nicotine, THC, and salicin and the effects of it can be found in Arsenal. It is one my preferred addictions for my runners.

Personally, I don't see why min-maxing and metagaming carry such a stigma. Making efficient decisions regarding game mechanics is a good thing. And many of the problems come from not using all of the rules (only buying one specialization at a time during downtime, using visual modifiers for spellcasters, etc.).

I draw a distinction between min-maxing and out-and-out munchkinism, though. This character is not a munchkin. His allergies come into play in the campaign, and his low Charisma was deliberately chosen and roleplayed (and the player has also indicated that he plans on improving it later). A munchkin would try to get "free points" from negative qualities, and use low Charisma as an excuse to turn non-combat situations into fights. True, just looking at the character, you could go "Oh, he has two food allergies and a Charisma of 1 - munchkin!" But that illustrates the fallacy of calling a build "munchkin" without looking at how it is run, or how the GM runs the game.

If my character fails and addiction test the THC/Nicotine do not alleviate the addiction, but they are a part of the entire experience of using Deepweed. Have you ever heard of Damiana? If not look it up. It is pretty much the non awakened real world version of Deepweed. Having used it before I can attest to its special properties. While the Nicotine and THC will not reduce the physical addiction symptoms to Deepweed, they do help with the mental as like I said they are a piece of the whole 'experience'....kind of like caffeine addicts who drink decaf or alchoholics who drink NA beer - is the drug in the stuff the are putting in their bodies? No...but by going through the same ritual or experience it makes them feel better. I have a pretty good understanding of how addiction works and trust me being addicted to Deepweed is not easy, which is why I took it because addiction is a pain in the ass.

I'm sure my character is addicted to coffee, cigarettes, and possibly even Snuff (although I don't currently use it) but I would not take those as negative qualities because I think the game impact is minimal.

somone please translate that one into english or german for me O.o

Something like.. all you can eat buffet?

So a smorgasbord is a huge quantity and variety of <x>

unless you can provide a book, page number, and quote, i am calling BS. of the 139 instances of the word "specialization" in BBB none of them occur in sentences that say anything like "buy specializations first thing with karma."

where does deepweed come from then?

While there is no "buy specialisations first thing with karma", Improving Skills and Skill Groups is written ahead of Improving Attributes and Other Improvement. And furthermore, on the Character Improvement table on p264, where all the Improvements are listed, New Specialisation is right at the top of the table, ahead of all the rest of the other improvements.

Deepweed comes from the contact that can supply you with it (Swag p280 SR4) or via the black market (p302 SR4).

ah, a shitload so to speak *g*

Funny, I always thought that deepweed was created by reading existential literature to normal weed to help it Awaken

yes, with the connotations of large variety of dishes and no established serving size for the dish.


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There are also some pretty ... generous, shall we say, specializations ie First Aid: combat wounds, Accenssing: Auras, Gunnery: Ballistics, etc.

Marital arts? Sounds like a specialization a pornomancer would take.