Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Yeah, yet another SOTA degradation thread
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
WeaverMount
Would people be more ok with the SOTA rules for software if it only degraded software that makes tests versus other software? Firewalls get out of date. Various exploits become pase. Abobe Edit CS 65 will not spontaneously loose functionality. Your Pistol active softs will always be as accurate as it always was. etc. Interesting question how would you treat agent's in this system?
Synner667
Your Adobe Edit CS 65 may not change, but what it's connected to will change - OS update, other software installed, hardware surge disrupting software, etc.

Just like in real life [just google for the very real problems people have with upgrading any major software package].

As a golden rule, the more complex things are the more likely they have problems...
...So the more systems or software interact with your Adobe, the more likely there are to be problems.
TheGothfather
What does the rule add to the game in the first place? It just seems to be another fiddly bit that the players have to deal with for the sake of... what? It doesn't add to the fiction of the game. It doesn't add fun. It just forces an even more antagonistic relationship between the GM and player.
tweak
QUOTE (Synner667 @ Jun 28 2008, 04:54 PM) *
Just like in real life [just google for the very real problems people have with upgrading any major software package].

As a golden rule, the more complex things are the more likely they have problems...


This makes me think of the x.org tree. Yucky!

However, protocols like tcp don't change very often. But new things like BitTorrent do show up on the scene to make things better.
Sombranox
QUOTE (TheGothfather @ Jun 28 2008, 05:10 PM) *
What does the rule add to the game in the first place? It just seems to be another fiddly bit that the players have to deal with for the sake of... what? It doesn't add to the fiction of the game. It doesn't add fun. It just forces an even more antagonistic relationship between the GM and player.


Overall, the only real thing it adds is a distinction between legal progams, which have a benefit, but are more expensive, and illegal programs, which you can get for 10% of the cost or even free, which needs something to balance it. If that's a extra bit of monthly cost to maintain said programs, then so be it.

The biggest complaint I had with it was 30+ rolls a month to find all these things and maintain them, which any genuine hacker could do, however tedious it is. Synner's last post in the Unwired PDF: a small and fast review thread put this to rest somewhat in that the errata is going to provide optional rules such as making only one test per month using the highest availability program and then calculating the monthly or bimonthly cost per program and paying that.

People can still have their cheap warez and not fiddle around with all the rolls if the GM is willing.

In the end though, if it's not liked, don't use it. That's the prerogative of the GM.
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (TheGothfather @ Jun 28 2008, 04:10 PM) *
What does the rule add to the game in the first place?

An end to the days of one player telling another "Oh, you're making a Samurai? Why are you buying programs then? The team's hacker is going to have everything at Rating 6 anyway, and we all get free copies!"
BlackHat
QUOTE (Sombranox @ Jun 28 2008, 08:14 PM) *
The biggest complaint I had with it was 30+ rolls a month to find all these things and maintain them, which any genuine hacker could do, however tedious it is.


With an interval of a week to patch just one program, my problem with the rule was the opposite. A hacker, working full time doing nothing but patching his own programs can only patch 4 a month (8 if he's working on a programming nexus) before they all degrade again.

That errata would be a welcome change, though. I wouldn't mind saying hacker should take a week off once a month to do basic program updates... but requiring a team of hackers working 40-hour work-weeks just to keep a single hacker's typical loadout up to date seems excessive.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (RunnerPaul @ Jun 29 2008, 03:23 AM) *
An end to the days of one player telling another "Oh, you're making a Samurai? Why are you buying programs then? The team's hacker is going to have everything at Rating 6 anyway, and we all get free copies!"

Certainly not. The hacker always will have the best programs cracked. In fact, if everyone is using the same programs, everyone can use the same patches.
Sombranox
QUOTE (BlackHat @ Jun 28 2008, 09:59 PM) *
With an interval of a week to patch just one program, my problem with the rule was the opposite. A hacker, working full time doing nothing but patching his own programs can only patch 4 a month (8 if he's working on a programming nexus) before they all degrade again.

That errata would be a welcome change, though. I wouldn't mind saying hacker should take a week off once a month to do basic program updates... but requiring a team of hackers working 40-hour work-weeks just to keep a single hacker's typical loadout up to date seems excessive.


I agree, the week long intervals bugged me, but less so because I treat all intervals down to hours. 40 hours for a week, 8 hours for a day interval. Long haul users can crank out a few weeks of work in a few days. Sustenance and sleep regulator sorts can crank things out over twice as fast as a normal coder without any problem and probably more if they pull a few all-nighters.

Realistically though, no hacker, however godly of coder, would probably be able to keep twenty or thirty programs updated a month with only a week or two of work scattered across the month. That's why warez groups form, so each takes a piece of code and cracks it, then shares all the results across the network so everyone has updated toys.

Alternately, you could always increase the interval up from 1 month to give solo-coders more time to keep their stuff updated. Or maybe come up with some sort of 'preventative maintenance' house rule where a good coder can tweak the code a little at a time over the course of an entire month to prevent it from degrading or ever even needing to be patched.

Kind of that idea that if you take care of your car's tires regularly, it doesn't cost much time or effort to keep them running for a long time, but if you let them just go, problems are going to start accumulating until you get a blowout and then it'll cost a lot more time and money to repair it.
TheGothfather
QUOTE (Sombranox)
Overall, the only real thing it adds is a distinction between legal progams, which have a benefit, but are more expensive, and illegal programs, which you can get for 10% of the cost or even free, which needs something to balance it. If that's a extra bit of monthly cost to maintain said programs, then so be it.
My main issue isn't with the bookkeeping in and of itself, although IMHO anything that makes any person at the table have to wait to actually play is bad. The problem is that the GM is encouraged - nay, required - to screw the character over for not having illegal programs. But, since the GM is obligated to screw the character over, the player becomes obligated to use illegal software, and thus is forced to engage in unnecessary bookkeeping. Basically, the rules as written - actually, even with the OP's houserule - punishes any player for playing a hacker.

QUOTE (Sombranox)
In the end though, if it's not liked, don't use it. That's the prerogative of the GM.
True. But this is true with any rule. It doesn't address the deeper metagame issues that this sort of rule creates.
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Jun 28 2008, 10:27 PM) *
Certainly not. The hacker always will have the best programs cracked. In fact, if everyone is using the same programs, everyone can use the same patches.


Assuming the Hacker doesn't get resentful that he has to go to the trouble to maintain his rep with his warez group, patching what programs of his own he can and uploading them to the group so he can download their patches for the rest. Why should that no-skillz, implant-junkie gunbunny get to leech all the best toys for free off of the benefit of his hard work? Sure, throwing the guy a free Firewall and a free Purge program makes sense in the long run, because if he gets himself hacked or infected while trying some of his little scriptkiddie tricks, he's going to come whining expecting to be fixed up anyway. Giving him top of the line Attack and Stealth though? That's just giving the mouthbreather more rope to hang himself with.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (RunnerPaul @ Jun 29 2008, 10:24 AM) *
Assuming the Hacker doesn't get resentful that he has to go to the trouble to maintain his rep with his warez group, patching what programs of his own he can and uploading them to the group so he can download their patches for the rest.

Because that's what a team is about.

Of course, you should check how pirated copies are usually aquired on p. 94.
The idea of a free software anarchist hacker group coding everything themself is an idea spawned at Dumpshock, not the main rule.
Sombranox
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Jun 29 2008, 07:42 AM) *
Because that's what a team is about.

Of course, you should check how pirated copies are usually aquired on p. 94.
The idea of a free software anarchist hacker group coding everything themself is an idea spawned at Dumpshock, not the main rule.


It's the Open Source stuff on pg 110 that proposes the idea of warez groups coding their own open source programs and sharing them with friends. It even provides a rule suggestion for allowing you to download Loyalty number of programs free for each program or patch you contribute and limiting program ratings to Connection rating of the warez group contact.

Those groups are different than the pirate networks of page 96 where you still have to pay 10% of the cost.
Rotbart van Dainig
Indeed.
BlackHat
So, your options, as a hacker are (assuming your GM uses all of these optional rules):
- Legal Software (No degredation, copy protection, full price, easier to track back to you)
- Pirated Software (Degredation, no copy protection, 10% price)
- Opensource Software (Degredation, no copy protection, 50% price, limited in rating)
- Freeware (Degredation, copy protection, 0% price, limited in rating)

So, if you assume that no self-respecting hacker (or shadowrunner) is going to run around using registered legal software that makes it easier to track him down, legal software is right out.

Comparing pirates software to Open Source software, pirated software isn't necessarily limited in rating (but takes longer to track down and purchase). Normally, pirated software is also 1/5th of the cost, unless you're using open-source produced by warez groups (which you took as a contact at loyalty 5 or 6) and contribute some code, in which case, this is the cheaper route, but takes WAY longer since you have to code something yourself. I'm going to assume your GM will ask you to contribute something close to the difficulty of the programs you want to download. If not, and you can code a patch for a rating 2 program in a week, and then ask to download 6 rating 6 hacker programs that are worth thousands more than what you contributed, you will definitely want to do this route.

If you're not worried about making copies, Freeware is even cheaper - and why worry about making copies when you can download and install the program as many times as you would like? The only disadvantage here is that the rating is capped to at least 4, possibly further limited by your GM.

So, there is no excuse for everyone on the team NOT to have all programs (which are available as freeware) at the highest rating the GM allows freeware to be (assumed 4). That should pretty much take care of the team's basic needs - but won't be good enough for your hacker. The fact that they degrade is almost meaningless, as they can just go download a new rating 4 freeware program the next month.

For those programs not available as freeware, or which you hacker needs at ratings higher than 4, your best bet seems to be getting in touch with a pirate VPN group, and buying them at 10% of the cost. Even if your programs degrade, the money you saved will pay to patch them for years. You will also want to pick up an open-source warez group contact, and begin writing your own program - so that when its finished, you can receive a 6-fold return on your investment.

At that point, the majority of your code effectively doesn't degrade - because you can redownload up-to-date alternatives at will. You paid a pittance to get powerful pirated programs that will do the job, and get you by until you can write a single program of your own - at which time, by trading and updating that program for your open-source friends, you can spend about 1 week a month, and maintain 7 programs that you need at ratings higher than 4. The whole thing is unlikely to cost you more than 20K, initially, and a week out of each month (plus, maybe a solid month up front to write your initial contribution).

Would anyone let players buy their programs with the above options at character creation?
Again, assuming your hacker isn't going to want to give his enemies huge bonuses to track him down by using legal software... his code IS going to degrade, whether he likes it or not... so he might as well buy all pirated software at 10% of the cost - or, at the least, all open-source software at half-cost.

That seems like it would take most hacker's software budget from ~80K to ~8K (if pirated). That's a ton of free money.
The alternative is to make the hacker pay full price, no matter what, and just ask him to chose the method that his software was obtained (legal, pirated, open-source, self-coded) at which point, every hacker will have all self-coded code, because they don't want to be tracked, but want the source-code for modifications and/or submission to open-source groups.
Ryu
QUOTE (Sombranox @ Jun 29 2008, 08:50 PM) *
It's the Open Source stuff on pg 110 that proposes the idea of warez groups coding their own open source programs and sharing them with friends. It even provides a rule suggestion for allowing you to download Loyalty number of programs free for each program or patch you contribute and limiting program ratings to Connection rating of the warez group contact.

Those groups are different than the pirate networks of page 96 where you still have to pay 10% of the cost.


Yes, my thread was based on something crizh had said, but the idea is quite supported by Unwired.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (BlackHat @ Jun 29 2008, 10:44 PM) *
at which point, every hacker will have all self-coded code, because they don't want to be tracked, but want the source-code for modifications and/or submission to open-source groups.

Per RAW, if you cracked the software, you got it's source code.
BlackHat
Right, but if you buy it from a pirated source, YOU didn't crack it. They could have cracked it, removed the copy protection, and recompiled it.. the way real pirated programs work. Still, buying the source code is probably in the picture. But having the source code seems to have nothing to do with my question.

Are the only two choices for starting characters legal software (which is hardly a choice for a hacker) and self-written code that still costs full price, since they can't spend downtime to program it at chargen (but, now they can claim to have rights to the source code, and the ability to make as many copies as they want, in exchange for having it degrade)?
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012