Let's assume that in my group, a Street Samurai got into a violent fight and his blood got spilled everywhere (he's still alive), and some Lone Star detectives used the blood found at the crime scene to gather his DNA. Now, said Street Samurai is SINless, and he does not exist in the public database.

So does this mean that the DNA evidence is, for the most part, useless? All Lone Star knows is that the criminal's a SINless Ork that has cyberware enhancements and a Blood Type of AB negative.

Of course, I know that Lone Star can match the DNA if they manage to gather know of the Ork's blood, but as far as the public database is concerned, he doesn't exist.

P.S. the game is set in Los Angeles. Does Lone Star have a foot-hold there?

They could create a SIN for the purposes of their investigation, as, if they track you down, arrest and convict you, you'll be assigned a SIN anyway.

I don't know who does the police work in LA. Corporate Enclaves probably does, though.

Edit: Looks like it's mostly covered by Pueblo security forces, but ritzier parts of town also have private contracts with the likes of Lone Star, etc.

If a Shadowrunner gets caught and is given a criminal SIN, does he gain the SINner drawback?

Also, since it would happen after character creation, would it be wise to give him 10 BP or the equivalent in Karma?

P.S. Does the Criminal SINner drawback cover misdemeanors or only the felonies? It would seem cheap for a Shadowrunner to get 10 free Background Points for one incident of drunk driving where nobody got hurt.

Well, he isn't given a criminal SIN when he's caught, but when he's convicted (Most places, that is). He is, after all, innocent until proven guilty. He would, however, likely be given a regular SIN, which would then be marked with a criminal record.

If I were the GM, I would give them the quality, but they wouldn't get any points for it. Also, the text of the quality seems to imply that it's intended for felonies, not for misdemeanors. Granted, he could get one for Felony Drunk Driving, though, if he was a repeat offender, or killed somebody at the wheel, or something. I don't really see it mattering too terribly much, though, since the criminal SIN means that, unless he escaped prison, he's been released, and already has paid his debt to society.

Edit: He could be a sex offender, though, and be required by law to inform his employers, ie Mr. Johnson.

So is "Democracy" alive and well in North America, still?

Can you still get all the Constitutional privileges in the Pueblo Corporate Council?

The Bill of Rights survived intact into the UCAS constitution, at least. I don't know as much about the other North American Nations, though.

A criminal SIN don't grant you any rights, it just registers you to the global SIN registration. You may not move out of town and you have to meet your probation officer twice the week. I won't call that "not too terrible"...

If LS find some unregistered DNA, they will put it as evidence in their casefile and in a criminal database under "unknown person" with reference to the actual case file. So if they find that DNA again or have found it before, they can link together the cases and pool information to catch the Sam.

cya
Tycho

Criminal SINs do grant you rights. They grant you less rights than a clean SIN, but they grant rights, none the less. Depending on the issuing authority, that is.

Criminal SINs do grant you rights. They may grant you fewer rights than a clean SIN, but they grant rights, none the less, depending on the issuing authority, that is.


italics added for emphasis.

oops

Well if you are SINless there is no need to proof you're not guilty. You are most probably linked to one or more crimes, that you may or may not have convicted and are then registered. Though this holds true mostly in cases when you are caught doing something illegal, but as being without SIN is illegal by it self, it mostly depends on the mood the Secs/Cops are in. They might as well just decide to spare themselfs the paperwork and feed you to the rats. All in all it depends on the setting you try to weave.

If you do not have a SIN, you do not have any rights. As far as law enforcement is concerned, they can do whatever the fuck they want to you with no repercussions. Also note the "Innocent until proven guilty" does not apply to the SINless.

If you have a SIN, you have all the rights of a citizen of your nation.

If you have a Criminal SIN, you have all the rights of a citizen of your nation, and have a criminal record on file. This does not mean you have a probational officer (unless it fits the character background - might make an interesting contact), nor does it mean you have a warrant on you.

If you are caught & do not have a SIN, you will be issued one once you are released/convicted (assuming you survive to that point). If convicted, the SIN will have a criminal background attached. You do not gain Build Points or Karma for this.


Damn, now I need to make a Criminal SINner with a PO as a contact...

On a side note, I honestly do not believe the SINner quality is a drawback. The disadvantage of having such a datatrail means it is certainly not a positive quality, but it has granted to many benefits to all my characters that have it for me to really consider it negative.

Technically speaking, SINless do have rights. They're not the same range of rights as a full citizen with a SIN, but they do have rights. Granted, since there's not as much of a datatrail if, as far as the computer is concerned, you don't exist, so it's easier for you to just disappear, if you end up getting the particularly dirty cops, but in theory you are protected by many of the same rights as everybody else.

They got rights all right.

"You got the right to be taken around the block, you have the right to bleed all over the pavement, if you give up that right and complain, we'll take you around the block again. You have the right to a Lawyer, but only if you can pay for it, as you haven't paid taxes and don't get a public defender, check his pockets for 'Concealed weapons' like a CredStick Partner, could put an eye out with that. If you don't understand these rights, Mr. Taser will explain them to you again."

"Don't tase me, bro!"

*Zap* "That wasn't funny decades ago, and it sure ain't funny now!"

I havn't remembered correctly: In SR3 you had all this stuff, i think...

cya
Tycho

But what of societal repercussions? What happens when a serial killer starts killing SINless squatters? What about a if a corrupt cop started using his power power to sleep with SINless parents' daughters whenever he wants?

Oh wait, that's where the Shadowrunners come in!

With nothing to compare the DNA to, they have nothing. However, if they find the same blood elsewhere they will have another instance of the same suspect and can get an idea of what that person does. Then they start asking around about a "insert random race/natural hair color/eye color sammie who does X" and start a good profile which will eventually lead them to the suspect in question if the cops find it necessary to keep searching.

What Serial Killer? Oh, those "missing" persons? People go missing all the time. Don't worry about it, their just homeless folks. They move around all the time.

What daughters? A police officer, who upholds the law, would never take advantage of the disenfranchised. And if such a person were to occur, the parents and victim could simply go to the police, because the corrupt police officer is obviously a freak exception to the rule.

Granted, people don't really like Lonestar, at least in Seattle. However, what would be the chances of us hearing about such a serial killer today, if the bodies were never found? Or such a police officer? When the police start doing that, who are you going to complain to?

Add in a media that is owned and controlled by large corporations who aren't interested in the news (except that which benefits them), and there ya go.

As for the Criminal SIN, I think it's exactly like what happens when an illegal immigrant commits a crime. Do they get to become a citizen? Heck no. (Remember, SINs denote citizenship.) They get assigned a bar code identity for the duration of their stay as a ward of the state. And then they get deported. Who knows in Shadowrun. Since being SINless is a crime, I wonder what happens when your prison term is up.

They get basic human rights. But since our universe and the Shadowrun universe diverge, I doubt that the Supreme Court decided in Shadowrun that non citizens are granted the rights citizens get.

I don't think the Star regularly murders the SINless. They are just human beings, and if they are blantant enough, people will be forced to take notice. But just like crooked cops now, people can "resist" arrest and get gunned down (if they don't want to just leave a body in a garbage dumpster and chock it up to a "serial killer" who preys on the low classes). Plus cops hate paper work. Can you imagine having THAT many illegal immigrants, and having to register them if you arrest them? Unless the arrest would make them look good, they probably just steal whatever is on you and give you a good beating to teach you a lesson. Really, in a way it's probably better for everyone involved.

What about the magical aspect? Your Street Sam left his blood at the scene of a crime. If the crime is heinous enough (or the Star can get some good publicity by solving the crime), They could always use the DNA and a little ritual spellcasting and locate the criminal.

Also, I'd always assumed the Criminal SIN came with blood and tissue samples, scans, along with listing of crimes, known associates, M.O., galore. That way if a crime occurs and the database connects a Criminal SIN to it, they can track down the culprit toot sweet.

Just my .2847682967 nuyen worth.

Mark

Bloodsamples are only usable for a short time. Also it would depend on the setting ofcause. In my SR campains I tend to use magic carefully and sparse to keep it special. While the local Policedepartment might have a Para-Invetigator it is definatly the question how urgend the case is and how motivated the local cops are to give away their case and credit to the spell-guy. So I usually see magic not as the first tool used to solve any and everything, but more like the last ditch of things to come.

You got a mage on the hunt for you? Guess you really pissed someone off. Not that mudane tech wouldn't be dangerous enough but once you've got a wiz on your trail, shit and fan combine in an all new, messy way.

Lone Star has to keep things in Budget (In fact, every Corporation does! They do NOT have unlimited funds available to them!), and Magical Support is very expensive, and always in demand.

Think of it like when DNA first started coming out and being available. You sometimes had to wait a month or more for the lab to get to it! And that's a major city.

Some cities still don't have a DNA Lab in Canada!

He killed two Lone Star police officers. I'd assume that Lone Star, like many police agencies IRL, would want him dead and would do whatever it takes to catch him. But Lone Star is a bunch of mercenary rent-a-cops, so may be guessing.

Well, the blood might only be good for a little bit w/o correct storage but the DNA scan will last forever. Look at all the cold cases that get solved with 20+ year old blood and the DNA it contains.

And capping cops is bad juju. You should try very hard not to do it because they have a very long memory and will hunt you down like a dog.

Yeah, cap a cop, and the guys in Budgeting might not allocate resources to a full-on hunt, but Cops have Spare Time.

And lots of contacts. Sometimes, Shadowrunner contacts (Don't forget that every Beat Cop you have as a Contact, is also has a Contact of YOU!).

Actually, that'd be a good Shadowrun, go find and take down a Cop Killer, and get some "Get out of Jail" free cards or some such.

The moment they open a file on the case, it'd be assigned a number - for records, for reference, etc.
It might not be a SIN, but it's still a number and would be in the relevant police databases.

Any blood scooped off the pavement in the street would probably only be usable as an accurate DNA sample for a short time...
...If it's usable at all - it is from a public place, and likely contains DNA from anyone who's been past.

Personally, I think, the whole concept is more than strange. A criminal SIN being a normal SIN plus a criminal record? Sounds pretty strange. Think about it, all squatter Joe has to do to become a citizin is to be convicted for a minor crime? Sorry, but that would be really stupid, to give citizenship to every criminal who isn't registered elsewhere

Personally, I tend to think that a "criminal SIN" is just a way to store your data. It doesn't make you a real citizen, etc. - you're still as good as SIN-less, but without the benefit of having no record. Now if a cops checks your fingerprints, your criminal SIN record will show up. A "real" SIN with a criminal record should be something completely different.

I like to think of it like what we have today.
If your convicted of a felony you cant vote, hold a government job, own a firearm, and are restricted in your travel rights. Not to mention you suddenly find yourself unemployable, uncreditable, and funny enough, none of those nice clean "gated communities" will so much as look at you. All that and the added bonus that everytime theres a crime committed in your vicinity, its your door the PoLice come knocking on first.

That "SIN" you now have ain't worth squat. Plus the authorities now have lotsa info on you tucked away just in case you step outta line again.

Maybe not too bad for a no-life squatter, but for a shadowrunner its the end of your career unless you can get the money to make it all go away and become sinless.

As far as I know, it's not enough to have a criminal record to lose the right to vote in most places And the rest depends, as always. And as bad as a criminal record may be, it's still not a reason to give any criminal citizenship...

In the US it is common for felons to lose the right to vote. Sometimes it is only for their term of incarceration, sometimes until they have cleared parole, sometimes it is for life. It depends on the state you live in. Other countries have different rules.

If the parents are smart they go to Knight Errent and ask for some "Pro Bono" help. KE will be more than happy to bust a Lone Star cop on multiple counts of rape and other nasty charges. Even make sure it gets on the news becasue they like to help peopel so much.


Sad thing is I can see the LS Johnson's having to pay for a Shadowrun team to kill the whole family so they can't testify. can risk the damage to thier rep.

The Criminal SIN is pretty much useless. Can use it to get a job, can't use it to vote, can't use it to get credit, can't sue it to get housing and any money you put into a bank acccount better be damn well documented. Technically it COULD be used to do all those things, but you will always "I'm sorry, but we don't allow criminals to work/live/bank here."

Squatter Joe is already a citizen, though. You're a citizen, whether you have a SIN, or not.

First off you don't give players BP for having bad things happen to them in game. For example if they piss off a mob boss and thus pick up an enemy they don't get bonus BP.

The only exception would be if it was something optional and flavorful they worked out with the GM (i.e. if something really tramatic happened in combat, maybe a GM would let them take the combat paralysis flaw along with an equivalenetly priced edge). But I've never seen or heard of that happening.



As for the CSI angle if they killed cops it just became personal. LS wouldn't pump billions into finding the runner. But they're definitly moving it up in priority and they're never forgetting.

And blood that has gone bad for ritual sorcery is still fine for genetic tests.

Something else to consider is what other evidence the runner left behind. Put on your CSI hat for a bit. Might there be

-footprints (revealing shoe size and from the stride distance likely something about height)
-relatives Remember all those paternatity tests? Lone star would probably run something like that and hope for someone genetically similar.
-camera footage or other witnesses. They don't have to be right there at the crime scene, the runner had to get away some how.
-fingerprints if they didn't wear gloves and touched anything (rifling through the cops stuff for example).
-recording on the cops. Lots of star have cybereyes/ears and recording is pretty standard, or they could have transmitted something using their comlinks possibly if they had a datajack.
-ballistics tests. Does your runner regularly buy new guns? Maybe they just use the same one and the same barrel? Not a 100% sure way to prove something but might link this killing to some other firefight where there is more info present


And now here's the best. The star will put out no questions asked payouts for info leading to an arrest. The DNA means they can be pretty sure they have their man once they get them. And like runners and fixers the Star has to rely on reputation the make that work, so they don't screw you over with that deal. You get them their man, they drop the cash where you want it, and they've always delivered.

So, privately, let all the other players in the group know that they could get, say 50,000 or more nuyen in cash safely if they let the star know who did it and where they are. And you promise not to tell the other player out of character about it either.

That should do it.

Can the cops build a mugshot of you from a DNA sample? The colour of your eyes, hair, ethnicity etc. should all be there in your phenotypic genetic data, right?

Full sequencing should be able to do all that and more.

http://theshrivers.us/PDF_files/Getting%20...r%20Witness.pdf
http://dnaprint.com/welcome/press/press_re...2004/august_17/

You can spot anyone related to this individual who is in the data bank. Like great grandfathers or 3rd cousins. You can track his mother's line via Mitochondrial DNA back roughly forever. Are any relatives in a data bank anywhere that LS could get access to?

You should be able to produce a picture that would show (with high probability) the person's face that they were born with, their natural height, likely natural weight, skin color, hereditary diseases, etc. All softs of useful stuff. It's less useful if they have chromed themselves up with massive cyberware, but still likely helpful.

The blood would also show any medical conditions, any drugs taken, bioware present, etc. Potentially lots of good stuff. The A1C test that can pull 3 months of blood glucose history from a single blood sample offers a good starting point for what is likely to be possible.

Plus you can peel DNA off of things people touched in passing. As in someone else in the group touched a magazine that was left on the scene.

The advantages of a full-body form-fitted armour suit + Chemical Seal + gas mask/rebreather. Not just that it keeps chemicals out, but that it keeps DNA traces in.

Also, every runner team I play in must have an aerosol can with 100 doses of Cleaner-Cleaner and/or the sterilize spell.

Genewipe, the best 45k, and 0.2 essence you will every spend.

Actually I don't mind that so much. I like having some backstory and heat on the characters. But eventually either they get taken out or enough is enough and a reset is a good thing. Plus there are costs to the genewipe so it isn't like they get off free.

Squatter Joe is a Probationary Citizen.

Squatter Joe, after he's been nailed for B&E, Tresspassing, Unnatural Acts With A *CENSORED*, and Disturbing the Peace (Thus having a Criminal SIN), is a Citizen with a Criminal Record and even less chance of getting support from various "Help The SINless" groups.

The great thing is... Squatter Joe can probably VOTE. This means, that there will be some kind of governmental help, because no government can afford NOT to do anything to millions of voters. And even if Joe cannot vote - the millions and millions of squatter who got SINs for free after the 2nd crash CAN vote and WILL vote for people who support government help for the poor

*shrugs* Yeah, maybe in your Shadowrun the people in power actually care what the "voters" think and abide by elections as opposed to simply hiring talent to rig the vote however they want. More SINs just means that the reported elections have a higher return, not that anyone actually cares what some squatter bum thinks.

Remember people, SIN or no SIN, you only have as many rights as your credit score can buy, sure it's less likely that the cops will sell you to a corp research lab, but if you have nothing to offer then don't think that it isn't a possiblity.

*Edit*

Something else to consider is that even in today's relatively corruption free world having a right to vote does not translate into actually voting, and do you honestly think that the trend is going to change in a world that is as rife with corruption as the Sixth World?

Well, they have ACORN (Association of Corporate Officers Renting Names) doing the voting that voters won't do. Isn't e-voting great?

Logistically, without a SIN, how the hell are you going to vote? You can't prove you're a citizen. You can't prove you haven't already voted. It's a logistical nightmare.

Joe Squatter got a SIN with these nice "Get a SIN for free" projects after the 2nd crash (imho total BS, but nobody asked me *g*).

One of the things I retconed. No free SINs for no body.

Save for the ones Dunkie gave. That's it.

You want a SIN, there's the UCAS Military Recruitment Office right there. We always need more grunts, and SINless Orks that survived the Barrens make great Grunts!

Well, the thing is, they weren't really just handing out SINs to whoever showed up. Many legitimate citizens lost their SINs in the crash, and taking advantage of the efforts to reinstate their privileges, many who were formerly SINless lied and said they had had a SIN all along. Where are they gonna look it up? It's not as though there aren't any people in, say, Redmond who have a SIN, so who's to say that hobo-looking fellow in front of your window at the SIN Administration didn't have one?

Well, the thing is, they weren't really just handing out SINs to whoever showed up. Many legitimate citizens lost their SINs in the crash, and taking advantage of the efforts to reinstate their privileges, many who were formerly SINless lied and said they had had a SIN all along. Where are they gonna look it up? It's not as though there aren't any people in, say, Redmond who have a SIN, so who's to say that hobo-looking fellow in front of your window at the SIN Administration didn't have one?

True enough. But I'm sure the datawork to get re-instated with a SIN is hellacious and wrought with beurecratic ineptitude and labyrinth red tape that even Lofwyr would not be able to worm his head around.

And hard to get through the 90-day waiting period for each form to be checked, and rejected due to the lack of Box 472-A not being checked, or Line 8862-iii being filled in when it clearly says "Office Use Only" in miniscule text four pages later.

Also you have to assume that the people in power actually want to issue SINs to people who for all intents and purposes serve as nothing more than a leech on the system, if you had gainful employment and enough creds to greese the skids then you got a SIN, the homeless bum on the other hand had his paperwork "lost" due to a matrix glitch and has to start the entire process all over again, three times so far...