Alright, so between Augmentation, Street Magic and Arsenal, there are tons of toys and options. Great, I LOVES me some options.

In Sr4, there are tons of skills, too. Also great.

But you know, when it comes to building a character sometimes...I sorta feel like I'm doing the same ol, same ol.

I mean, I KNOW, in my heart, it's the background, personality, and the little things-the quirks, the good points, and the flaws which differentiate Samurai A from Samurai B, even if their ware is very similar-or Mage A from Mage B, even if they have a similar spell/skill setup, or Hacker A from Hacker B even if they run with the same deck and similar program pool. I know it's what's ''inside'' that counts, basically.

BUT...sometimes, I just look at a concept, and think ''I've done this before'', even if their personality and...well, everything about the CHARACTER is totally different.

I've played a wide array of characters, and like a wide array. I had a concept that was eating at me(a rather experienced merc-type, was a high rank, some basics. I hadn't played the ''was a pretty great leader/etc'' concept before.) So i gave a great skillset that made sense, and then went the cyber-route. I decided I wanted to play him cybered up.

But then I looked at the ware list that I had picked...and it ended up being similiar to the sam I played last year, which was similar to the former company man's ware that I played the year before that. All three guys had very different backgrounds, motivations, edges, flaws, and personalities; while their skillsets shared some similarities, they had some different background ones, different knowledges, and so on. I also noticed their stats were a bit the same, as well...I didn't MEAN for them to be like this, but it just sort of happened-I gave them the stats that were most important for what they did.

Similar thing happened to a couple mages I've played. Different backgrounds and concepts-very similar spelllists and skill lists when I look at them again. I didn't mean to, again...just sort of happened.

Again, I know they're all different...but I can't help but feel I might be ''doing it again.''

Anyone ever run into this? How do you break it? I know ''play a different concept'' is always a plus, but when you have a really good, or fun-sounding idea, you sometimes want to run with it. I don't want to just start plugging random ware that makes no sense into a character just to make them ''different'' and have them completely ineffectual and just not make sense; same with skills, I just don't want to start jotting down random skills and numbers just to make them different form the last guy if it won't make sense. But...hmm.

It's not so much a dilemma, but just something I couldn't help but notice sometimes in looking back over all sheets. I mean, it could come down to little things like ''these skills are popular with many character types and end up picked a lot'', or ''these pieces of ware just...work in these instances.''

In part this is an artifact of the structure and history of the game. An infinitely diverse world has been funneled into a few generic run types. The strongest effect of this funneling on characters is in the published modules, and in the Missions series in which the runs have to be designed in such a way as to be doable by a large number of players who may not regularly run together. The upshot is that certain skills and abilities are at a premium in most games. If you want to succeed, or at least not be seen to suck, you conform. This state of affairs is not unique to Shadowrun, or even just role-playing games, but I find it ironic that a game that in so many ways breaks the mold of earlier role-playing ends up being a victim of the same pressures to conform.

There would be a huge variety of people in the shadows, and as wide a number of reasons to be there. One way to break out of the 'same old, same old' is to think of some of those reasons for being in the shadows, and flesh out someone who is driven by one of those reasons. We design characters to succeed in the typical types of runs, but they weren't 'built' that way in their lifetimes.

For example, how about a musician? (The Rocker from SR1?) Imagine such a person with dreams of fame and fortune, who sinks into another life in the shadows over time. What skills would that person have? What equipment? Surely they would be different from the standard mix. It would be up to an inventive player to keep this character alive, and to make him useful to a team.

Maybe, too, it would take a GM and other players to direct play into new corners of the shadows, just as dangerous and lucrative, but not run of the mill.

You have some good points. I mean, the reason why certain archetypes have certain skillsets and gear, is, well, because they WORK. I mean, generally, a hacker is going to have A. Best gear he can get and B. A certain selection of base programs, at a good level, and C. Certain skills. Now, granted, once they have these, there is plenty of wiggle-room.

Playing a different archetype is always awesome(I actually have a sort of heavy-metal archetype; he was a bouncer I played. Real underground club, and while he was an Adept with some usual stuff-brawling, etc-he was VERY different than anything I had played and the ''stock adept.'')

Sometimes I think those extra roundout-skills is what can separate archetype-and hell, I suppose you can even do it with cyberware, even though it costs essence and nuyen to do so. I mean, Sam A and Sam B might have muscle toner/augmentation, wired 2, cybereyes, and a suprathyroid. Sam 1, though, perhaps has ALL kinds of crazy sense-enhancements(nose, ears, touch). Sam B might like diving or whatnot, has the Diving and Swimming skills with an internal air tank and extended volume.

So yeah, you CAN play with things more, now that I look at it again. I guess I don't have TOO much of a problem sticking with the tried and true skills/ware/spells for each ''archetype'', but mixing and matching doesn't necessarily have to result in an ineffective character.

I'll second that part of the issue is that you're probably gearing your char for the kinds of runs you tend to find yourself on. And a degree of picking up the "best" stuff.

I find part of this is alleviated if you try characters that are really mutipurpose (often more fun to play as well). In your first example each character you listed was a Sammy whatever you wanted to call them. I fear this is because your adventures probably tend to ultimately being shoot 'em ups. The Missions are all to often like that.

You can make social skill rolls and what not. But at a basic level so long as you stay on the tracks the module will get you to the fight scenes where what you do matters, and you should be able to win instead of having to make a break for it.

But there are still ways to mix up the underlying stuff and still be effective even in a stifling environment where footwork entails kicking people.

The merc, for example, could be lighter on the dice pools and cyber, but softmax edge (why he's been around so long). Also instead of the regular skill sets maybe give him skilled in demolitions and throwing (clear that room the easy way). Also give him so loyal old buddy contacts for his working days. Maybe even have one of them run with the team (especially useful if your team lacks a hacker or something and your guy can fill the gap, better than a GMPC who might betray the party, or do other annoying things like helping out somebody else before you).

My point is that the above is different and requires a different playstyle, but if anything might be more dangerous to the bad guys.

Looks like you have identified a personal play style. The only way your going to find something new is to change that trend and go back to the drawing board.
Don't think in optimum settings (cough min max), think "what the hell can I do with this thing thats new."
Especially if you have never used it before.

Well, I haven't bin really...min-maxing, per se. It's more or less taking things which said occupation would take.

Combat bunny? Will probably have A. Initative enhancers(since according to like everyone they can't exist without them...I was trying to beg to differ, but who knows), and B. Skills. Hacker? Best deck and programs money can buy. NOW, of course, the hacker instance, you can play a ''noob hacker'', if you will, with lower things...OR perhaps a hacker of great skill(lots of BP dropped into Skills), but no cash to speak of, and has a very crappy deck.

Now, I can imagine a combat bunny type with perhaps less ware, but excellent natural skills and Attributes.

I did manage to do a few things with a sam-concept that was different; more or less a cross between a sam and a weapons manufacturer. His real love was making the weapons and collecting them(blades and melee, mostly...has Artisan, Armorer, and Knowledge skills that match), but he CAN throw down with them when necessary, and does have the ware and stuff to do it with, as well. Even though it's still a sam; it's not his first choice of job, so to speak. It actually was kind of cool when I got it all together.

I did also manage to make a mage quite different; a lady who was more of a labrat/enchanter magical-scientist type; alchemist if you will.

So the concepts are there, but I also was looking at other things....like the toys. To mix things up a bit. Like, a rigger who specializes in a different kind of drone, maybe...one that not many people use.

What I mean is not to accuse you of min maxing but that we all do things in our own way, do this too often it be comes boreing. So if you do something to get a specific effect, change. Often we see a specifc collection of skills/powers/toys and because they are tried and test we keep using them.
You know what you have done so don't do it again. Keep the concept but don't go with your first instinct. Better yet get your ref to make a character for you that will be a challenge. It will stretch your play style, roleplaying and give a hint at how your are viewed. If the ref does a good job you be challenge. If you thinks it to easy/familiar demand a harder to play character.

Why not use the old "lab rat" idea. You have various cyber/bioware that doesn't exactly go with the character, you find out after you wake up with no memory of who or what you are and have to go down the path of enlightenment. Or you wake up in the hospital/alleyway/riverbank, and you have adept powers that you cant control but have to learn to use them before they kill you.

@Elfenrir:
me thinks you don't read nearly enough comics *g*
read some funny comics like deadpool for example or Nextwave and let them inspire you to do silly things which are so dumb that they re-enter the universe on the side of awesomeness ^^
Spiderman? totally doable!
The Beast from X-Men? that one too!
Magneto? works more or less o.O
and so on and so on . . simple style characters, like the trick-shooter with the third eye in the back of his head and ears he can shut off so he can pull the old stunt with the weapon being held over his shoulder and shooting things behind himself O.o

Is this a job for the old Twenty Questions?

I think what you need to work on changing is what kind of concept you come up with for a character. The three sammies were the same, because despite the different backgrounds, they all had a background calling for a combat orientation. So you need to mix things up. I don't think you would be happy getting random 'ware, or overgeneralizing to the point of uselessness, or trying to play something completely different from what you normally do.

I think you need to find a concept that is similar to your normal ones, but different enough to be fresh. Maybe instead of the usual sammie, play a troll heavy weapons expert, or a dwarf who is good at electronics and demolitions, or an ex-pit fighter who is good with guns but even better with his fists. Don't overgeneralize, but make the sammie part more bare-bones to be able to afford a secondary specialty. The sam/armorer was one idea. You could also make a sammie/face, or a sammie who is a daredevil bike racer.

Take a new focus.

Some good ones I've found mix it up is the Shadow-Journalist (turned Shadowrunner). They fit most archetypes. A rigger focused on surveillance, a hacker/detective specialising in data searching and muck-raking, maybe throw in some interesting blogger contacts, a face works great, of course. My favourite journalist style character is the stealth spec. roof rat. Lot's of senseware and lots of climbing bonuses.

Also, look through augmentation again, have a look at some of the more out-there ways to use cyberware. Not useless mods just to be different, but you can get some pretty cool things. For example a chemical warfare specialist. Max yourself with toxin/compound resisting bioware/cyber and then use poisoned weapons and a whole lot of gas to kill your enemies. Then get yourself a chemistry skill and mix up your own toxins and custom made grenades. Would work well with a throwing weapons combat adept.

Another interesting specialisation is climbing. There are some sweet climbing bonuses you can get from arsenal, from customized cyberlimbs to synthacardium to the different forms of articulation cyber/bioware. Make a climbing twink and have him use that to approach situations. Give him a good long-arms and he'd be a sort of freerunning guerilla sniper sam. You may have overlooked it, but raptor cyberlegs are a modular accessory now, so you can have normal feet if you want to be inconspicous, and then have awesome speed cyberlegs with hydraulic jacks that send you flying into your enemies.

Also, use negative qualities. Not the incompetency: pilot watercraft cop-outs, but real limitations. Try a pacifistic runner. Try being allergic to sunlight. Or an agoraphobic. Or a wasted drug addict. Try uncouth, infirm, or uneducated. Think of some habit you have in shadowrun, a tactic you use over and over again, and then cut off your ability to do it with a negative quality. Challenge yourself like that.

Another tip is try a completely different race to what you're used to. Even better if you pick something the race is not traditionally suited to. Dwarven samurai, ork faces, elven deckers, troll magicians etc. To go even further, wait for runners companion (or find a houserule) and play a Ghoul. That would change your approach substantially.

Just some suggestions. But finally, talk to your GM. See if he (and the rest of your group) would be interested in a different form of game. Running in space, on the ocean, under the ocean, in the wilderness, in the mountains, on mars, on the road.

Actually, I DID kind of do one thing before that Glyph had suggested with the mix-match. I had made a ''combat face''. I won't lie. I like being the guy who can well-defend himself in the face of danger. I don't *always* have to be that guy, but I LIKE it, and get in the mood often for it.

The combat face didn't throw like 25 social dice like a regular face...but he threw a very respectable amount of dice in about everything, as a trade off. But what he could do was act like a perfect bodyguard or diplomat, as he had all the social skills to back it up; he could do the ''facing'' in more dangerous areas WITHOUT bringing his own bodyguard with. He had some decent ware to help with that(I went ware, rather than adept in the end), and ended up being an amazingly useful member of the team; a face that could come along on runs and NOT be a liability if/when things went wrong.

You know, it seems like I already had some of these answers already. Perhaps I was forgetting some of these things I have done already.

Honestly, I'm starting to wonder if it was my choice of archetype, or just the way I was going about it. Playing something utterly different-I do that now and again, and it's fun...but I think what I was really looking for was new ways to breathe new life into old favorites...if that makes sense. I think Glyph has it nailed...finding archetypes that is stuff that I DO know I like, but injecting little things into them that put them apart.

Hmmm...
...What's on your list of Qs ??

My list of Qs to get Players to think about their Characters is less than that.

Would be interesting to see what you've got.

probably the 20 questions in the back of mcmackies NSRCG3 *g*

One thing that I think could almost completely break you of this is to build a character that's completely unaugmented. Not a bit of 'ware at all. Make him a mundane, too.

See how that makes you approach situations differently, and I think you'll be pleasantly surprised at how fun it is to play. The guy doesn't need to be useless just because he's a regular ol' human being. You can have good attributes, good skills, nice gear. Just keep him all natural.

I also tend to find myself focusing on quirks. Little things like my current brawler adept who has echolocation, thermosense organs and enhanced pheromone receptors simply because I thought it'd be neat to make him almost animalistic in nature. It cut out a good bit of room for anything else and the only things he's got his adept powers for is combat sense, increased reaction and critical strike, so when it comes down to using his rifle he's completely human, but he's an absolute beast when it comes to unarmed. He's a good way off from what I normally play, but definitely refreshing.

Actually, I've played unaugmented humans a few times. That's the thing...at this point, I've about played it all when it comes to the ''bases''. Hackers, riggers, techwizes, a techno, augmented, unaugmented, magic, non magic, high edge, low edge.

Keep in mind, I do appreciate all of the tips. I'm not trying to be stubborn or anything, don't worry. Yeah, i've tried it all, and I guess my thing is I've found my favorite stuff...so now, I'm trying to take my favorites and build on it.

The oddest thing is, there is this one character, Leon, that I have. It's a big, strong cybered guy; nothing TOO different. However, this guy is STUPIDLY strong(as in I bought the stuff to boost the strength way past max and paid for it), he's an underground pit-fighter(funny the pit fighter was mentioned), a part time repo man with a group, and happens to be a seven foot tall womanizing total prettyboy, with violet hair past his elbows, and wears an old longcoat with no shirt under it. He's also got a 2 Willpower and a 1 Logic, and tends to need to ask people the meaning of big words(when someone told him they had a proposition for him, he asked if it was a kind of drink.) When it comes to fighting, he's a kickboxer(well, kind of, he more or less just punches and kicks the crap out of whatever's in his way and runs over anything that's left), and a one-hit, one down guy. Even though he had the ware and the fighting, I think this character stood out more than the rest; he had a high Edge and a high Charisma as well and decent street-level social skill despite the fact he was a bit lummox.

It's funny, he's textbook, he's a strong, hit-stuff guy whose a little dim and a prettyboy on top of it. I don't know why, but he ended up *different.*

Somehow, this ended up being one of the most fun characters I played. When I described him to my friend, he *asked* me to play this character. (sadly, the game fell through.) I meant him to be more of a one-shot comic relief, but he was so charismatic somehow even the *players* liked him, and he went from being a one-sided prettyboy strongman to a character who had a better background than most of the folks I've made before and I spent all of a half hour on the entire thing.

I guess I'm trying to find something like that again...but it almost seems like it comes by accident or something. Now, I COULD be smart and just play this guy forever, but I get character ADD.

Sounds like Arnold Schwarzenegger or Silvester Stallone more or less *g* probably more Stallone because of his Rocky and Arnold more relying on Shooty bits to git stuff done ^^
Needless to say, i like it O.o
i don't really get how he's different from the stereotypical strong guy being dumb . . well, maybe that's the difference . . in shadowrun, that would be the first character i see that is strong and DUMB . . and i play Trolls for frags sake! *grins*

I'd be happy to show you and get your feedback. Unfortunately, I'm annoyingly too busy for an in-depth post. Maybe after Gen Con.

Meanwhile, I might recommend looking at the character questionnaire (I think that's what it's called) from Amber Diceless Roleplaying. Wujcik was one of my heroes.

Out of curiosity how long have you been playing shadowrun? It's starting to sounds like you may need to spend less time making characters and more time actually playing them.

Perhaps because these characters have survived and thrived for so long in the shadows, they begin to look like clones of each other in terms of their skill sets and equipment. It is Darwinism in the shadows. If you want to succeed, there is a certain set of criteria. Otherwise, you are pigeon holed in whatever niche you are in. You might be able to get lucky outside your ecological shadow niche but eventually your luck will run out.

Take the unlikely non-shadow archetypes. They may be have to start out in their own small environments before evolving the skill sets and gear to venture into the wider shadow scene and as they evolve they will look more and more like the "standard" archetypes or retreat back to their old holes or they do not survive.

This reminds me of something about the whole ''tried and true'' thing. I mena....I don't know how many people play these, but...builds in MMOs. I don't LIKE to use the analogy, but it does kind of fit-certain builds exist for the endgame players because, well, they work. These are indeed cookie cutter builds-but there are a few that go around, and each one sort of has a little wiggle room. But the core of each is the same, because, again, they are proven to work.

In SR, you get plenty more choice than that...but yeah, if you survived a long time, you have A. Luck(i always believe that), B. A good head on your shoulders, and C. Yeah, you do have the skills to pay the bills, and you keep your gear(magic, cyber, electronic), top shape.




Playing since...1994-1995 or so. And I wholeheartedly agree with you. I WISH I can freaking play more. Due to my location and my main groups, that's a bit of a problem sometimes(main group located: South Jersey. Fenrir located: Helsinki, Finland). We have a group coming together here, at least. I have had a few characters I've played for awhile, but then it seems like if I wait too long in between games(inevitable), I come up with other ideas that I want to play. I think if I'm not channeling the creativity into a particular character in-game, it ends up running rampant, resulting in other character ideas being born. I don't have this problem usually if I'm in-game, unless the idea just sort of falls flat.

Concept->Personality->Equipment->Tactics

Start with the character concept and from that develop the character's personality and background. From there develop the skills and equipment and finally use the skills and equipment to determine tactics.

Some equipment is useful enough to almost be standard. Initiative enhancement, for example, is all but necessary. Other equipment, however, can be mixed and matched in great variety. And, of course, equipment and skillset determines the character's preferred tactics. If your preferred tactics determine the skillset and equipment then characters are going to be similar.

Take, for example, Ronin, hardcore street samurai who adheres to Bushido with such fervor that it is almost a fault and Killtoya nihilistic razorgirl who loves violence, sex, and violence - in that order. These characters are similar, combat oriented killers, but also very different.

Ronin is a Renaissance Man of combat. He has high blades skill and high automatics skill, preferring the katana and an Ares Alpha but also having both a spur and a cyberimplant SMG just in case. He, of course, always carries himself with a businesslike demeanor and has the entire influence group.

Killtoy, on the other hand, is not a professional soldier and thus has no use for long blades or large rifles, instead preferring the sadistic thrill of slicing people up with her two sets of rand razors, both of which are capable of injecting any one of a number of nasty poisons, highly concealable pistols, and MGL-12s when times comes to get the extreme carnage on. She has high Charisma and the ability to say "fuck off" in several different languages, but her social skills are severely lacking, mostly by choice. She like to kill shit, not talk to it. She relies on her contacts to get information and equipment for her.

See, two very different skillsets and equipment sets on two very different characters with very similar roles.

Maybe force yourself to take different equipment? You say they start looking all the same (which I can agree with), but is there some wiggle room in what you take? Boosted reflexes instead of Wired, or reaction enhancers and a Synaptic accelerator? Maybe look for bioware applications that normally you use cyber for, or vice versa, or under SR4 other options?

Maybe set personal limits on things for characters? "Okay, this new character won't have more than 3 points of cyber, no matter what..."

Its tough, since archtype characters can blend together at times, but not impossible to make them somewhat different even in their niche.

Find that piece of equipment, skill, spell, power, program, Cf that you have never ever seen anyone, or yourself, equip or use.

Build a character around that.

Find a fictional character you like, file off the serial numbers, and figure out how to create something similar. There have been a few "How do I make Jason Bourne?"-type threads floating around these boards which could be inspirational.

It also helps to step back and take a breather. Sometimes you get so immersed in a project that it creates circular logic patterns. Take a walk and let your mind go free. That's when you come up with something fresh. My best ideas come right before I go to sleep.

My solution to this problem was to start trying to design mooks. Thats right, corpguards, lowlifes, joe average. Then, giving them the runner touch, a slightly tweaked stat, a slightly above average skill, maybe a new piece of 'ware. But nothing amazing. This seemed to open a whole lot of new doors and made much more compelling characters.

am doing that too, no more than 3 points of cyber and 4 points of bio in my characters and they still start looking the freaking same x.x . . even if i try to do something else, my character will become the combat monkey because i refuse to play something that can't defend itself . .

I have little to add, but I want to say that this is one of the more interesting threads on character building I've seen on these boards in a long time. Thanks for that.

This is an excellent idea.

My daughter is a drummer. I wondered what it would be like for a young musician who fell through the cracks and ended up in the shadows. I took some of her character, added a bit of mine at her age, and a dash of our friend's son who fancies himself a guitarist and a rebel.

Presto-digito, a character who isn't designed for the shadows, but has unique talents to offer. Lots of fun to play.

Peter

Ever tried to make a total non-combatant? I know you stated that you didn't want a character that couldn't defend himself, but having a super-genius character with tons of skills and a good camo is very, very hard to find. After all, if you can unlock any door or subvert the local defense net and commlinks of anyone nearby, you can have them chasing ghosts for the majority of the mission.

I'd second starting with the numbers.

It sounds as if you are going main combatant again.

So, try to figure out ways to build a combat monster that don't revolve around your usual setup.
Take a look at the things your previous sams had in common and find alternatives for them.
Dig through the rulebooks, focus on equipment that inspires you, something that makes you wonder what you could sqeeze out of that.

Select alternative ware, different -and massively customized- weaponry and so on.

Then go looking for an additional focus for your character.
Explosives expert, climber, gunsmith, whatever.
Try to merge this with the PCs role in combat.

Or you could go a completely different route and turn a posession-based magician into a combat expert.
An awakened mercenary boosting his stats not with ware, but with guardian spirits.

Likewise, you could try a different combat focus. Switch it up and play a sniper. Or a hand to hand combat expert. Heck, try making an uber mundane (good luck). Or, if you want to mess around with magic, combo with utility spells and guns. Some of the characters this can create can be really, really nasty. For example, I had a mage-sniper that I played for a while that worked really well. Invisibility, a cloaking gun, detect life (or personal favorite divination spell) and a couple of watcher spirits can make a real mess of an entire runner team.

One character type I've always wanted to put together is a successful hybrid mage/sam. I have a concept for the dude in my head, but damned if I just can't get the numbers to work. I admit I can do a little min-maxing when it comes to numbers-I'm not a pain in the ass about it but I do want a good set of numbers that makes sense together.

We use FrankTrollman's house rules these days, too...and I haven't tried the concept out under that yet. So perhaps that is one thing I'll fool with. I've always been a big fan of ''hybrids.''

My group once made PCs based on our own stats. 3 being average human. We got extra points for actual training for the skills. Being in college at the time gave us plenty of time to figure it out. The game itself was based on a Red Dawn type of senerio. No cyber or Awakening just the rules. you could start a PC like this and as the game progresses, add the augs that you wanted, maybe awaken or goblinize, etc.

I can answer this question now:

Please turn to page 18, Runner's Companion. There were twenty-one in the original draft, and a couple were cut and replaced in editing, but that's a fair list.