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BRodda
Ok, if someone takes SURGEd and takes the 4 armed trait, is there any reason they can't replace all 4 arms with cyberlimbs? The big argument against 4 armed cyborgs has always been that the brain, bones and nerves aren't there to interface properly. I don't think that is an issue in this case.
cyber.gif
Stahlseele
aside from it costing 4 essence and a boat load of money, not as far as i can tell . .
had a similar idea with an centaur and 6 arms . . 10 limbs alone would mean with torso and skull he'd be at -15 essence or something like that *g*
It trolls!
But my friend, think beyond the borders of essence! 10-limb centaur CYBERZOMBIE is the way to go!
Stahlseele
yes, 7 Arms(one Weapon-Mount Arm with a light MG, Gyrosmount and under-Barrell knife-thingie) . . the whole sheband painted a nice white, and we'll call him Binky ^^
VagabondStar
And blinky may wonder why no one loves him... frown.gif
Stahlseele
who cares about blinky? *g*
binky as in deaths horse from discworld ^^
VagabondStar
ah. sumimasen.

I haven't read discworld.
Rasumichin
A, Binky comes up again.
My new favourite minmax monstrosity.
Congrats, Stahlseele.
Wish i had come up with that.

10 limbs, one skull, one torso...that adds up to 12.25 Essence with standard ware.
Yeah, even with deltaware, going CZ would be necessary.
Biocompatibility (cyber) might help, but if we want to get any other necessary ware into Binky, he'd still be better off zombified (being Death's horse, it would be more fitting anyway).

The possibilities, though, are highly interesting.
Not only can Binky pack absurd amounts of cyberware armor (for a total of 48 points, not including any external armor), he'll also have impressive amounts of capacity left even after figuring in 4 points of armor per limb.

I'd advise bulk mod for all limbs, making it one big horsie.

BTW, along with the articulate arm, i'd also include a pair of those weapon mounts.
I think you already suggested raptor legs and skimmer disks in another thread.

Yup, we've got ourselves an equine hovertank here.
Stahlseele
heh ^^
yeah, infect him with some kind of HMHVV and he'd be closer to the source, but for combat monstrosity the cyber approach is better . . and frankly, i am better with cyber/bio than with nano/gen and magic *g*
Equine Hovertank O.o
never thought of it quite that way ^^
Rasumichin
What i'm wondering about, though, is wether skimmer discs are cumulative with raptor legs (cyberskates are) and wether centaurs aren't already supposed to have legs that effectively function as raptor legs.
Anyway, aren't they absurdly quick to begin with?
Stahlseele
so? quicker is allways better, at least for my kind of character ^^
and think about it, with enough horse-power *snicker* he could even carry out the troll should he go down for whatever reason ^^
realistically *shudders* skimmer-discs would not add to the legs, but i have not seen anything rules wise to support that one . . maybe i overlooked something, but there's people who, admittedly, know their way around the rules, especially the 4th stuff, better than me O.o
there was the same problem in SR3 with Kid-stealth-legs and Cyber-skates, as far as i know that one never was ruled out as well . . only the way the additions are handled so it did not get too silly . . so no +1 run multiplier and then another +1 run multiplier or whatever, you get a +2 modifier and that's it more or less
Rasumichin
In SR4, cyberskates and raptor legs are compatible. Says so in the cyberskate description. In the skimmerdisc text, nothing similar is mentioned.

In any way, raptor legs are great for combat, giving a +2 strenght bonus.
Combined with optimized limbs, Binky can indeed kick some ass.

Too bad the Evo Kali modification is available for arms only, i'd really love to include some spurs in these legs.
Especially if Binky is also an adept.
Then they could be weapon foci.
One could, however, also enchant the legs as weapon foci, i think.
Combined with an additional +1 DP from the Nightingale Feet Of Fury cyberlimb mod, we're beginning to amass a DP that makes kicking with both front legs at the same time possibly a feasible option.


Other sick ideas :
Bump up the armor rating even more by cramming titanium bone lacing into that horsie.
After all, the skull and torso are still there, they're just encased.
Additional reinforcement can't hurt.
Speaking of that, Mystic Armor as an adept power would also be nice (yeah, we should be going for the new armor rating world record).
Stahlseele
natural hardened armor too? *g*
and with that kinda torso, who says you can mount only one of those arms in the back? O.o
or spider-horse, not spurs but foot-anchors and climbing claws into the feet, or grip-feet with geck-stuff . .
Tarantula
AFAIK kid stealth and skates have always worked together. I see no reason why kid stealth legs and skimmer discs would work together.

Heres my reasoning:
Cyberskates explicitly state they are compatible with raptor cyberlegs. They are also an accessory. Raptor legs are a modular plug-in.

Skimmer discs are a modular plugin, and so are raptor legs. They do not explicitly state they are compatible. Also, there is only reason that the "foot" part of the raptor leg module is modular, so there is no way to remove the "raptor foot" to attach a skimmer disc.
Stahlseele
pity *g*
other thing we seemed to forget while building horsy of death:
centaurs can only take delta grade implants, can't they?
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Aug 6 2008, 04:16 PM) *
pity *g*
other thing we seemed to forget while building horsy of death:
centaurs can only take delta grade implants, can't they?


Non-delta centaur implants all count as second hand for the purpose of essence cost. It's regenerating and shapeshifting critters who can only get delta grade.
Rasumichin
We need deltaware for him anyway, so it doesn't really matter.
Makes sense, though, as deltaware is custom-built and i don't see anything else fitting into a critter with an anatomy so vastly different from a metahuman.

As far is the second articualte arm is concerned, i don't think it would work out.
An articulate arm uses up [8] points of capacity, while a standard cybertorso only provides 10 capacity points, which could be increased by bulk modification to 14.

Capacity generally doesn't scale with character size, IMHO.
Otherwise, trolls would be granted more capacity in their cyberlimbs than dwarves.



BTW :
Shapeshifters can get 'ware now?
Hm...and vampires too?
Stahlseele
oh, okay, got those confused it seems ^^
all the easier to zombify horsy O.o
so even beta would count as second hand?
Rasumichin
Note that Betaware isn't necessarily custom-built in SR4, as larger body shops will have betaware in store according to Augmentation fluff.

I interpret beta grade as being custom-fitted or adjusted during the implantation process in a way that makes it...somehow un-customfittable after removal.
Stahlseele
i'll just nod and make believe i actually understood that ^^
Squinky
Make sure you armor up all the limbs, and buy the securetech forearm/leg casing for all the limbs smile.gif
Stahlseele
yeah, was planning on that . . 48 points of internal armor brings this puppy up to par with certain armored vehicles i think ^^
and i forgot about this securetech piecemail armor stuff O.o
every other kind of armor seemed not to be fit for fitting this hory o.O
Rasumichin
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Aug 6 2008, 11:46 PM) *
yeah, was planning on that . . 48 points of internal armor brings this puppy up to par with certain armored vehicles i think ^^


Aside from the fact that it's not hardened Armor, he's actually better armored than any vehicle in SR4, including possible modifications.
And that's while he's nude.
And it's not even including bone lacing and mystic armor 2, which would bring him to armor 51/51 while still in "clothes optional" mode.

QUOTE
and i forgot about this securetech piecemail armor stuff O.o
every other kind of armor seemed not to be fit for fitting this hory o.O


Other armor could be custom-built using the Armorer skill (and an appropriate knowledge skill to design it in the first place).
Wouldn't be that hard.

Piecemeal armor for the arms and legs is not as insane as it sounds at first, considering the PPP system counts for 2 arms and legs to have full effect, otherwise, it's only +0/+1.
Combined with one additional pair of arms, that comes down to +2/+3.
Add in the vitals protector for +1/+1 and a SWAT or military helmet for +2/+2 and we have +5/+6 in stuff that does not increase encumbrance.

This brings us to 56/57.

At this point, we should start to calculate the encumbrance maximum to see how much else we can slap on him...
Stahlseele
yes, someone with a firm grasp on the rules should do that . . so i won't do it obviously *g*
i get ideas and try to get them to work and get frustrated if the rules say:"nya nya nya . . no!"
but with high enough body and strength there should not be much he can not carry around . .
horses can lift 200 kilo without much problems i think O.o . . now imagine the horse being bioed/cybered up to the nostrils . .
let's just tripple it for simplycity and say 600 kilo . . more than half a ton binky could lift and carry without too much stress i think . .
and pulling would be even more i believe . . but i believe that i can get a horse to fly with 4 skimmer discs too ^^
Ancient History
"Giving most people two extra arms just gives them the chance to be incompetent with two extra hands."
Stahlseele
so what would happen if you gave most people 2 more legs? O.o
btw, combat-cyber-zomby-centaur or centaur with any kind of HMHVV(each uisge?)gives a whole new meaning to the term "beating a dead horse"
as for the most original depiction of discworlds binky, centaur horse shaman with movement-power and:"i am my own totem"
WearzManySkins
Since the original essence loss for a arm was when the character only had 2, I would not have a Shiva Armed character pay the same in essence, if the Shiva Armed Character had 4 arms essence cost would be half, 6 Shiva Armed character essence cost would be 1/3 of the original essence cost.

WMS
Rasumichin
QUOTE (Ancient History @ Aug 7 2008, 12:27 AM) *
"Giving most people two extra arms just gives them the chance to be incompetent with two extra hands."


Indeed.
What is great about Stahlseele's concept is that he has come up with a way to minmax the shit out of additional limbs that does not revolve around "i'll split my dicepool to tiny fragments and roll 4-6 times for not hitting anything".
Doubling the number of available cyberlimbs.
It's one of those unforeseen synergies insane theoretical optimization totally depends on.
That, and imsomniac nerds on the internet.
Stahlseele
QUOTE
Since the original essence loss for a arm was when the character only had 2, I would not have a Shiva Armed character pay the same in essence, if the Shiva Armed Character had 4 arms essence cost would be half, 6 Shiva Armed character essence cost would be 1/3 of the original essence cost.

WMS

yeah, that sounds good . . sadly, it was never losing the arm that lowered essence(even if the deadly wound required for losing of limbs could lower magic) it was allways the replacing the arm with something cyber . . you could lose 6 arms and 4 legs as a surged centaur and still be at 6 essence . . but as soon as you start getting machines to do the work of what has been there before, your inner self starts complaining and leaving, bit by bit . . . CLONED limbs again, do not do that as far as i remember . . i don't know if it is the same way in SR4 though O.o
QUOTE
Indeed.
What is great about Stahlseele's concept is that he has come up with a way to minmax the shit out of additional limbs that does not revolve around "i'll split my dicepool to tiny fragments and roll 4-6 times for not hitting anything".
Doubling the number of available cyberlimbs.
It's one of those unforeseen synergies insane theoretical optimization totally depends on.
That, and imsomniac nerds on the internet.

what can i say? i'm a natural ^^
in battletech/mechwarrior i spend hours in the mech-lab, trying to find the perfect fit for me and my playstyle ^^
if the name had not been taken allready,i would have registered the alias of labrat for exactly that reason ^^
Rasumichin
QUOTE
. CLONED limbs again, do not do that as far as i remember . . i don't know if it is the same way in SR4 though O.o


It is.

Unless SOTA2072 comes up with bioengineered clonal superlimbs.
Stahlseele
heh, more toys for me to minmax with ^^
so, if i get biological augmentations through gen-tech and i clone a lost limb, does the cloned limb get the enhancements through gen-tech? O.o
and do i have to buy muscle aug for the arm later on or is it upgraded to match the rest of the body on delivery?
WearzManySkins
Well you could have a 4 Shiva Armed character of mine does/did. "Shotgun Sikh", uses two arms on the left to hold/use a full shield, uses the two right arms to hold two separate SA/FA double barreled 10(20mm) gauge shotguns. And Yes he is a Ork, so size does help.

Still thinking of the uses for 4 Sikh Blades with reposite.

WMS
Stahlseele
there'S nothing saying that the gyromount has to be in the arm that's used to support the gun to give recoil-compensation, so with 6 arms and one or two of those weapon arms with gyromounts you could ramp up the recoil compensation enough to actually fire the minigun without too much trouble . . especially if you get 4 foot-anchors or something similar to really make yourself a fixed turret *big grin*
yes, that's a bit extreme on the rules lawyering, even for my tastes in min-maxing, and not even i would probably allow that reasoning ^^
what i WOULD allow is all 6 arms with gyromounts holding the minigun together, and the minigun being held up by the 7th arm extending from the back with another gyromount and mybe the wearable gyromount too . .
hobgoblin
hmm, a centaur with cybernetics...

why o why am i reminded of this "guy":
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm..._Bravestarr.jpg
silly.gif
Rasumichin
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Aug 7 2008, 01:21 AM) *
there'S nothing saying that the gyromount has to be in the arm that's used to support the gun to give recoil-compensation, so with 6 arms and one or two of those weapon arms with gyromounts you could ramp up the recoil compensation enough to actually fire the minigun without too much trouble . . especially if you get 4 foot-anchors or something similar to really make yourself a fixed turret *big grin*
yes, that's a bit extreme on the rules lawyering, even for my tastes in min-maxing, and not even i would probably allow that reasoning ^^
what i WOULD allow is all 6 arms with gyromounts holding the minigun together, and the minigun being held up by the 7th arm extending from the back with another gyromount and mybe the wearable gyromount too . .


Now THAT is sick.
However, several gyromounts do not stack.

The foot anchors, however...dammit, can't find them.
Where they left out of SR4?


BTW, max external Armor without encumbrance is BODx2 in SR4.
I bet centaurs have high BOD stats to begin with...customized cyberlimbs with maximum BOD enhancement should allow Binky to get into more than 80/80 probably...not that it would be of any use to hit him with anything but direct combat spells, tactical nukes or thor shots anymore.
Even Itzcoatl heavy railguns are beginning to become useless by now, and i thought they could take out anything in SR4 besides Bloodzilla with one or two well-placed shots...
hobgoblin
QUOTE (Rasumichin @ Aug 7 2008, 02:37 AM) *
The foot anchors, however...dammit, can't find them.
Where they left out of SR4?


try augmentation, p 40-41.
Stahlseele
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Aug 7 2008, 02:35 AM) *
hmm, a centaur with cybernetics...

why o why am i reminded of this "guy":
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm..._Bravestarr.jpg
silly.gif

ah, yes, dirty thirty and the love of his life . .
QUOTE
Now THAT is sick.

told you i'm a natural ^^
QUOTE
However, several gyromounts do not stack.

must have overread that O.o
QUOTE
The foot anchors, however...dammit, can't find them.
Where they left out of SR4?

augmentation page 40 in the pdf file
per foot anchor(only one per foot[4 legs, 4 feet]) -1 point of recoil/+1 point of recoil compensation, so the centaur would get 4 points of recoil out of them . .
edit: curses, out-posted by the hobogoblin! ,

as for character ideas: the wild horses from one of the saber rider and the star sherrifs episodes, or the robotic horses used by the galaxy rangers . . or the robotic horses from vampire hunter D . . there's so much that can be done with this kind of character O.o
if you can get your GM in a good mood(read:bribe him without mercy) maybe you can get 4 additional legs instead of arms and play a drider(half spider/half humanoid)
BookWyrm
Hmmm, now I REALLY have to pick up Runner's Companion......
hobgoblin
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Aug 7 2008, 02:45 AM) *
ah, yes, dirty thirty and the love of his life . .


that would be thirty-thirty or 30-30, but i guess its a joke and we are probably tempting admin reactions so wink.gif

hmm, a 80's hair rocker with all cyber body, a custom cyber-skull and kid stealth legs, packing either a assualt cannon or a rail gun. would that be a accurate description? silly.gif
Stahlseele
more or less, yes *g*
why admin action? O.o
yes that was a joke o.O
Rule 34 and all that . . .
don't google that one x.x
Rasumichin
Why not make Binky a mystic adept?
On top of 1 point for adept powers, he'd be able to learn counterspelling to guard himself against the only halfway realistic attack that can still hurt him.
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