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tsuyoshikentsu
Okay, so there's a cool little optional rule in Augmentation that lets you "redline" a limb to temorarily increase the ability modifier. I happen to think it's awesome, because it reminds me of that one scene in Ghost in the Shell. But I was thinking about it it, and then said... "Wait a second."

Because at the time, I was putting together a meatshield that made use of the Restricted Gear trait in the Runner's Companion. See, my meat shield did the typical meatshield thing and converted everything to Stun damage, and through Runner's Compendium I finally was allowed that Holy Grail of damage soakers right out of the gate: the Pain Editor.

...And then it clicked. Redlining lets you increase your attributes, but deals Stun damage to you equal to the increased rate. Which the Pain Editor makes you immune to. Which Restricted Gear lets you get at creation.

Oops.

Now, thank goodness, the rule begins with the phrase "if the Gamemaster allows it." Built-in cutoff right there. But GMs, be aware: your next chrome-geek player could be looking to augment his stats from here to infinity if you play with this rule.
Ryu
Caveat: You still HAVE that stun damage, even if you don´t FEEL it. Overflow damage is not stun at all.
tsuyoshikentsu
I was under the impression that you still rolled to resist the damage, yes?

In which case, I increase the relevant Body stat infinitely.
Mx
QUOTE (tsuyoshikentsu @ Aug 11 2008, 02:54 PM) *
I was under the impression that you still rolled to resist the damage, yes?

In which case, I increase the relevant Body stat infinitely.

At which point you take infinitely times six stun damgage and die(Becouse you have to redlines all your limbs)

But you can only double the limbs atribute so if all your cyberlimbs have body 10 you have to redline them all to 20 if you want 20 body to resist the stun damage witch would at that point be 120 points of stun.

tsuyoshikentsu
QUOTE (Mäx @ Aug 11 2008, 04:15 AM) *
At which point you take infinitely times six stun damgage and die(Becouse you have to redlines all your limbs)


Nope. You can only redline one limb, and I'd say that since you average all traits involved, only your redlined limb would be involved.

Now, here's the other thing. I'm pretty sure that each test is made seperately. So I could redline my STR to 10 and my Bod to 80 and buy the hits. (Of course, then I'd be resisting 160S with 80 Bod, but that's what Edge is for! biggrin.gif)
Mx
QUOTE (tsuyoshikentsu @ Aug 11 2008, 03:33 PM) *
Now, here's the other thing. I'm pretty sure that each test is made seperately. So I could redline my STR to 10 and my Bod to 80 and buy the hits. (Of course, then I'd be resisting 160S with 80 Bod, but that's what Edge is for! biggrin.gif)


You can't redline your body to 80, you can only double the limbs atribute by redlining and i really doupt that your character has an augmented maximum of 40 in body.
tsuyoshikentsu
QUOTE (Mäx @ Aug 11 2008, 06:00 AM) *
You can't redline your body to 80, you can only double the limbs atribute by redlining and i really doupt that your character has an augmented maximum of 40 in body.


Ah, that's the part I missed. Good show!
Stahlseele
there's no way to ever get your body to the augmented maximum . . ever . . only magic can do that, no cyber, no bio, no nano, no gen, no drugs . . rules say you can get an attribute to 1x5 racial natural limit rounded down . . trolls get +4 on body? so natural 10 in body and technically you can get it up to 15, but there's nothing that can actually raise body to 15 if i remember correctly . .
Ryu
Redlining is explicitly not limited by augmented racial maximums. It is limited by your soak-fu (and of course twice normal rating, if you can take that limit).
Stahlseele
only thing that redlining would be really good for is using a bow that nobody else can fire to punch through a dragon hiding in an main battle tank . .
hmm . . if one redlines to reach high agility, does that count towards shooting pools too? O.o
min maxed all to hell elf could probably get 40 dice for shooting guns that way . . ok, he'd be out cold, but who cares ? ^^
Tarantula
I need to pick up runners companion for Brick.... Hello starting with a pain editor!
Mx
QUOTE (Ryu @ Aug 11 2008, 05:50 PM) *
Redlining is explicitly not limited by augmented racial maximums. It is limited by your soak-fu (and of course twice normal rating, if you can take that limit).


Well it kind of is, becouse limbs rating are limited to augmented maximums.
Dumori
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Aug 11 2008, 04:05 PM) *
only thing that redlining would be really good for is using a bow that nobody else can fire to punch through a dragon hiding in an main battle tank . .
hmm . . if one redlines to reach high agility, does that count towards shooting pools too? O.o
min maxed all to hell elf could probably get 40 dice for shooting guns that way . . ok, he'd be out cold, but who cares ? ^^


my adept/sam monowhip dude can roll 88+ dice if he rolls well that's one dead anything. He has used karma though but still.
Rad
How do you actually do that at the table?

I have a hard enough time rolling 15 for my character's full defense pool, they go everywhere. rotfl.gif
Dumori
redlining his limbs and with the set up attack then with finishing move after i could roll over 88 dice with eged more like to hit less that 60 though but still your dead.
Heath Robinson
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Aug 11 2008, 04:05 PM) *
only thing that redlining would be really good for is using a bow that nobody else can fire to punch through a dragon hiding in an main battle tank . .
hmm . . if one redlines to reach high agility, does that count towards shooting pools too? O.o
min maxed all to hell elf could probably get 40 dice for shooting guns that way . . ok, he'd be out cold, but who cares ? ^^

I present to you, the Card-crusher hand.
Maximise Strength and Body in a cyberhand. Use Subdual and inflict stun damage equal to your strength, which you just redlined the cyberhand for. You can choke a man to death, or crush his neck, so there's an argument for using only the cyberhand stats for determining the damage.

I need to make an Adept build that specialises in this. It'll be fun.
tsuyoshikentsu
QUOTE (Heath Robinson @ Aug 11 2008, 11:14 AM) *
I present to you, the Card-crusher hand.
Maximise Strength and Body in a cyberhand. Use Subdual and inflict stun damage equal to your strength, which you just redlined the cyberhand for. You can choke a man to death, or crush his neck, so there's an argument for using only the cyberhand stats for determining the damage.

I need to make an Adept build that specialises in this. It'll be fun.


Well, right then I'd rather have a hydraulic press. With Finishing Move.

Holy crap, that's totally my next character.
Heath Robinson
QUOTE (tsuyoshikentsu @ Aug 11 2008, 10:31 PM) *
Well, right then I'd rather have a hydraulic press. With Finishing Move.

Holy crap, that's totally my next character.

By the rules in Augmentation, the Hydraulic press does 10P when pinching and requires a subdued character. It also states that the press has a power equal to a Strength 20 character, rather than a Strength of 20. Whilst a semantic argument in and of itself, combined with the stat block for using the Pinch as an attack it implies that the press was not intended to be used like a normal limb and, therefore, cannot be used to apply damage to characters under subdual.

I would also believe that any reasonable GM would apply penalties to unarmed combat on account of lacking a proper limb.
tsuyoshikentsu
QUOTE (Heath Robinson @ Aug 11 2008, 03:43 PM) *
By the rules in Augmentation, the Hydraulic press does 10P when pinching and requires a subdued character. It also states that the press has a power equal to a Strength 20 character, rather than a Strength of 20. Whilst a semantic argument in and of itself, combined with the stat block for using the Pinch as an attack it implies that the press was not intended to be used like a normal limb and, therefore, cannot be used to apply damage to characters under subdual.


...Except for the part where it not only cleary states that it can, but points to the subdual rules in the BBB.

QUOTE
I would also believe that any reasonable GM would apply penalties to unarmed combat on account of lacking a proper limb.


*Shrug* I wouldn't, as the rules for combatwith it are pretty clearly outlined. Plus it probably wouldn't even be that much bigger than normal for most troll variants.
Squinky
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Aug 11 2008, 10:35 AM) *
there's no way to ever get your body to the augmented maximum . . ever . . only magic can do that, no cyber, no bio, no nano, no gen, no drugs . . rules say you can get an attribute to 1x5 racial natural limit rounded down . . trolls get +4 on body? so natural 10 in body and technically you can get it up to 15, but there's nothing that can actually raise body to 15 if i remember correctly . .


If we are talking cyber replacement doods, you can get to the max on body.


I had a full body guy, got to roll 44 dice for resisting damage, I just planned on taking my laptop and using Dashifens awesome shadowrun dice roller smile.gif
Heath Robinson
QUOTE (tsuyoshikentsu @ Aug 12 2008, 12:52 AM) *
...Except for the part where it not only cleary states that it can, but points to the subdual rules in the BBB.


Page 47, Melee Attack Plug-in table (beneath the Modular Plug-in cost/availability table).
CODE
Melee Attack Plug-In | Reach | Damage | AP
Hydraulic Press (strike) | — | (STR ÷ 2+1)P | —
Hydraulic Press (pinch) | — | 10P | –4


A weapon stat block points to counting as a weapon instead of as a limb and, therefore, not classifying for use in Subdual. The special requirement for the target being subject to a Subdual attack does not imply that it can be used in Subdual, simply that it cannot be used in such a manner against a mobile opponent.
tsuyoshikentsu
QUOTE (Heath Robinson @ Aug 11 2008, 06:45 PM) *
The special requirement for the target being subject to a Subdual attack does not imply that it can be used in Subdual

I'm going to restate that idea.

"The rules say I can only attack if he's subdued, but that rule doesn't mean I can attack if he's subdued."

In other words, what we have here is something we can do instead of inflicting Stun damage.

Or, put differently? If you're right, why the hell didn't they just say "immobilized" in the first place?"

Oh, and by the way?

QUOTE (Heath Robinson @ Aug 11 2008, 03:43 PM) *
It also states that the press has a power equal to a Strength 20 character, rather than a Strength of 20.

Just went and looked: wrong-o! "The power of a hydraulic press is equal to a Strength attribute of 20." No "character of" to be found.
WeaverMount
I can see over riding safe measures and spec-ed tolerances to get more strength. I can even see dynamic tension giving you more agility or reaction. But does anyone have any idea what redlining for body would even mean? I just horrific star trek flash backs of captains shout orders to magnetize the hull.
Heath Robinson
QUOTE (tsuyoshikentsu @ Aug 12 2008, 06:50 AM) *
I'm going to restate that idea.

"The rules say I can only attack if he's subdued, but that rule doesn't mean I can attack if he's subdued."

In other words, what we have here is something we can do instead of inflicting Stun damage.

What is a Strawman? Oh, sorry, I thought we were playing a gameshow.

I would have thought that what I wrote was quite clear. Maybe you are forgetting that someone being subjected to subdual is more vulnerable to third party attacks as well? I'll try rephrasing it to be even more understandable.

You can only target someone that is currently subject to Subdual (subjected to it by you, or someone else), but the arm may not use an indirectly referenced Strength value for purposes of inflicting damage using the Subdual rules just because Subdual was mentioned in the targetting limitations.

QUOTE (tsuyoshikentsu @ Aug 12 2008, 06:50 AM) *
Or, put differently? If you're right, why the hell didn't they just say "immobilized" in the first place?"

The writer might have intended to add a little additional verbiage in order to explicitly indicate the most common circumstance in which the Pinch attack can be used and add a page reference to help people who intend to use the plug-in. Not everyone puts together two and two to make four when the twos are on different pages in completely different books, and more twos might be added elsewhere.

QUOTE (tsuyoshikentsu @ Aug 12 2008, 06:50 AM) *
Just went and looked: wrong-o! "The power of a hydraulic press is equal to a Strength attribute of 20." No "character of" to be found.

The mention of a "Character" in my note is superfluous. I was paraphrasing. It still stands that the nature of the association is indirect. The "power" attribute of the press is not usable as Strength in any cases.

The damage code for Clubbing varies by Strength like a normal melee weapon, whilst the Pinch damage code is fixed. This should be taken as implying that the pinch attack is the special case and that the association with Strength 20 is irrelevent to all purposes except the Pinch attack (which has a precacalculated the damage code anyway).

If you want an illustration of why you wouldn't be able to use the Pinch to inflict 20S, consider that it is optimised to allow the maximum power possible (the pump cannot be too hefty, so they use a larger piston to maximise the force produced). At that force, and surface area we are looking at extreme localised tissue damage. The pressure is much higher and causes organ rupture far more readily. The press isn't wrapped around the target, it's a set of bars that are being pressed together and this has a tendancy to produce small contact regions which relate to higher pressure (since pressure is inversely related to area). A hand applies a slight presure over a larger area, and pressure (not force) is the real factor in what kind of damage you deal.

Being pinched by a hydraulic press simply has more in common with being hit by a baseball bat (which also does P) than being punched. No amount of fine control will change the fact that you are applying a much greater pressure and are rupturing organs and the circulatory system instead of constricting them.


If you get your GM to go with, fine. I do think that it's inappropriate to use that Strength value for anything.
tsuyoshikentsu
QUOTE (Heath Robinson @ Aug 12 2008, 02:39 AM) *
What is a Strawman? Oh, sorry, I thought we were playing a gameshow.

I would have thought that what I wrote was quite clear. Maybe you are forgetting that someone being subjected to subdual is more vulnerable to third party attacks as well? I'll try rephrasing it to be even more understandable.

You can only target someone that is currently subject to Subdual (subjected to it by you, or someone else), but the arm may not use an indirectly referenced Strength value for purposes of inflicting damage using the Subdual rules just because Subdual was mentioned in the targetting limitations.


OH! I see what you're saying. No, I agree with that. What I thought you were saying is that you couldn't use the Pinch attack at all in a subdual situation.
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