I'm looking at the rules for shapeshifters this edition and something bugs me. Before, shapeshifters had an essence of 8 to start with, but still could only go up to a maximum magic rating of 6. That was fine, and that's how I ran my fox. But now, they put in that shapeshifters get a magic rating of 1, regeneration, and some stat bonuses. Again, fine...but for 50 build points, I want to know something.

That 1 magic rating from shapeshifter...does that stack with the rating 1 magic you get from becoming a mage or adept? I can understand if we can't go resonance, but shouldn't I get another magic point of going mage? Otherwise, it's a little not fair to shapeshifters.

And I'd like to know...does everyone else think that regeneration is an acceptable thing to add to shapeshifters for the cost? I don't. 50 build points to get both regeneration and a plus to some stats for getting an equal amount of negatives to stats and silver allergy and silver vulnerability. Think about that...maybe I have regeneration, but it's easy to get around and doesn't work once I've been hit by silver. Does this reall warrent a price of 50 BP?

think that's been covered by a no in one of those threads *g*
as for the other thing: as long as you can avoid silver, you're nigh-unkillable O.o

First off, the magic rules have changed, every mage adept, whatever, now starts with a magic of 1 (formerly 6) and can raise that by spending bp or karma, I do not see how this might be unfair.

Second, the basic magic point you get by being a shifter, infected, drake mage, adept (or what ever else) does not add with other basic magic points. The only, one free point of magic is the one you gain by what ever gives you access to magic in the first place. Everythng there after, that is not a direct increase of the magic attribute will not add. Again I do not see how it might be unfair, mages gain 1, shifter mages gain 1 aswell... no one gets 2 startup points in magic - I consider this fair.

Silver is certain death (mostly), but yes I consider the statting and regeneration rules a fair deal. Regeneration, by no means makes you unkillable (not even nigh), but it is a good asset that can make you a tough opponent (given you use tactics). The ability to shift shape, regeneration, enhanced senses together with some boni, is weighting up the mali paired with the weaknesses - especialy if you add the coolfactor.

On player-level mages are the most powerful thing in SR, followed by cyberd trolls (and some rare setups). A shapeshifter mage has quite some power potential, and I think the cost you make a fine deal with the cost.

I am most happy with the new shifter setup.

P.S. - Regeneration still works after you have been hit by silver, aslong as the bullet doesn't stick, and you're still alive. A Holdout might be deadly as it has the highest propablility to get the bullet stuck, but it is still highly unlikely. Silver tears through a shifter like a hot knife through butter making it likely to pass through. I mean hey, a holdout is getting the DV of a sniper rifle...

And of course, every shapeshifters favorite spell: Force 3 Alleviate Allergy. 3 hits drops the allergy from Severe to Nothing. Alleviates all effects, and only one allergy at a time. So, I don't see why every shapeshifter wouldn't either have this spell in a sustaining focus, or quickened on themselves.

Maybe some do not like al that magic stuff... it is however a simple thing for a mage to do - especially for him self. Personally I like to keep some weaknesses.

However, a good note, that makes a shifter dabbling in sorcery even more powerfull... lil' tiny spell, what mischief they make

Ok, then I guess I'll have to show you how I feel it's unfair when you look at the other metavariants. Keep in mind, I don't have all the source in front of me at work.

Shapeshifter fox comes with a +1 Agi,Rec, and Int, a -1 to Body, and a -2 to Strength. This evens out to a 0 net stat gain. They're not even faster then an elf. So right there, I consider this a 0 BP cost. Because, hey, you're being penalized more then helped by Fox. So that's 50 BP still unspent. Then you give them enhanced sense. That's about a 5 BP cost quality, in my opinion, so that's 45 BP left. Now, are you telling me that a +1 magic rating and regen costs 45 BP? How? In what galaxy does this make sense? (And don't bring up the fact that I can shift into a fox, because that's in no way a positive quality. Not until you get to Bear or Tiger or something).

A magic rating of 1 is 10 BP. Then, a severe allergy to Silver is around -15 and vuneralbility to silver is, I don't know, maybe -15 BP again. Net, that's -20. Add that to the BP cost still there, and we jump to 65 BP. So, what all of you are saying is that the regeneration quality is a 65 BP quality?

I'm sorry...are you serious? 65 BP? Can I just, I don't know, NOT have that? I'll take all the negetives of the thing and STILL be at -20 BP cost. By the numbers so far, that means that taking fox shapeshifter should net me an extra 20 BP. I mean, hell, go mage with it, with my number crunch, and you still have 5 BP left over for another quality.

Obviously I'm exagerating in a few places, but I feel my point is valid. I'm not trying to look for anyone to agree with me, I'm just showing you why I think it's unfair.

because you're a min-maxer/metagamer?

no.
if i, as a character, am bothered by an allergy, i'm going to find something against that.

I'd pay 100 BP for the ability to recover <Magic + Body test> damage every turn. That means I can withstand 3-4 drain every turn AFTER drain resistance. Hello, Perpetual Magic Machine.

not sure if that means drain damage, as drain damage is the only kind of damage that simply can not be healed by magical means . .
even physical drain can't be healed by a heal-spell from another mage . .

Your math might be right, your calculation is not. Let us have a look at the standart metahumans. Every meta (not counting in humans) gets 3 net attribute mods in addition to some other extras like lowlight, thermosight, a strong immunesystem or +1reach. Yet their cost strongly differs. This is a reflection of multiple factors, such as (but not exclusively), rarity and how extreme single stats are accumulated.

The fox shifter is obviously not built on a "fighter" concept, at least not in the brute force kind of way - they'd make good assasins though. As a side note, I do not fully understand what you mean by the fox shifter not being faster than an elf.

The fox gets +1 agility (one of the most used attributes), +1 reaction and +1 Intuition (which appears to be rather rare). Also +1rea and +1int add up to +1 initiative. He then gets low on 1 important attribute, body, looses 2 potential strentgh (least used attribute) and gets a -1 range due to the fact that a fox is tiny. He then gets 4 enhanced senses, that you surely can not buy as a bundle for 5BP - low light vision, smell, hearing, taste. Those enhancements are supposely better than the ones you can get with qualities, but somewhat equal to cyber, bio or adept enhancements...maybe even better. The ability to shift between fox and human is a good one, a fox is hard to hit, fits through narrow spaces and is good for a quick escape or for being stealthy. Remember, you can still cast spells as a fox.

Dual nature is a merit and a curse by it self and for a mage less so on both sides.

Regeneration may have become weaker, but it's logical loopholes have also been closed. It is after all a tremendous ability. A Free spirit, by the way has to pay about 50 BP (40 if you count one point as free) worth of edge, to get that ability. A Fox on four legs is also faster, again good for escape or pursuit.

I do not count the free magic point, as it is not a real +1 it is more the base of the characters exsistence.

Foxes are great mages and or assasins, they are neaky, evasive and fast. Have a troll trying to spot that fox when looking for the caster, that's starting to kill him fast and then mae him try to hit it. Even when trying it in close combat I would rule a fox as hard to hit (advance rules from the arsenal if you like). The fox may not physicaly best a troll but he may evade and have spells, spirits and regenerates if he actualy catches a hit.

Shifters are rare, they are a powerfull resource, they are fun to play. If those points are not worth it to you, even though you got all that nice stuff, think of playing something else - a troll maybe?

P.S. - forgot to mention silver...this is your true weakness and you can easily cancel it out as a mage.

P.P.S. - I do not know about drain either, in former editions it was stricly pointed out, that it heals slower (1 a minute, still good enough) but I didn't find anything about it in SR4, now that I was looking for it (at least not on the fly).

I really, really liked having an essence of 8 before, I guess. *whines* I'll stat him out, but I know he's not going to be as fun to play as he was before. The plus to agility does me no good and the minus to strength keeps me from being a good martial artist, which I was.

Agi = you do better attacks for MA. Str means you hurt slightly less, which should be just at worst, 1 less damage a swing.

agility will let you hit more often, the strength isn't a big deal anyways; strength 5 is the same DV as strength 6. the reaction will give you better passive defense.

how is that not useful for a martial artist?

Indeed, -1DV if you used to have a strength of at least 5. You could try to opt for an "exetional attribute - strength" though. Agility makes you more likely to hit in close combat (aswell as ranged) and reaction makes you harde to hit. You also have a slightly higher maximum for initiative.

If an essence of 8 (without much benefit) was important to you, ask your storyteller if he will do you that favor. Out of interest, I have to ask though, what good will it do?

Before we fully understood the rules, it gave me Magic 8 right off the bat. ^.^ When we did figure it out...I just like having a very naturally magical being with more essence then the normal mortal.

And the strength really did help me out. But the problem is not being able to use things like Improve Attribute, put it on a focus, and punch a troll through a brick wall.

I hope that is not what you consider fair? I also hope that you do not play a shifter purely for powermongring...



That I can fully understand, it is a matter of flair somehow, yet I'd say you survive that one easily. If it is so pressing to you, your ST might be kind and leave the 8 to you... without further boni. Your magic maximum should still decrease if you get any implants.



How much strength did your fox have?



I do not see a problem with that, on the contrary. Again I am having the thought, that you might have chosen the wrong setup there. Really, think about playing a troll, cyber him up and punch people into walls, works more than fine. Also you only pay 40 for the metatype, have tremendous strength and even +1 reach. If you still want to have that as a fox... buy yourself the exeptional attribute quality or get a martial arts manuver with +1 DV and you are set.

However, if I build a fox shifter, I do not do so, to express massive physical strength. It's a bit like building a streetsam, complaining that he cannot cast spells. Fox shifters can still be tremendous assasins, but brutal and straight forward doesn't sound reasonable here.

I know tales of the sly fox, but never heard any about Arnold Schwarzenfoxer.

[Announcer's Voice] Coming up at 8... He's small, he's furry, he'll kick your Hoop! Schwarzenfoxer's back and he's pissed off in... EXTERMINATOR 2: REVENGE OF THE FURRY THINGS!" [/Announcer's Voice]

At the time, I saw no problem with getting a magic of 8, because of the severe death that followed when I so much as touched silver. Back in 3rd edition, if I was hit with silver, I might as well have rerolled the character. So a magic of 8 and regen was not unfair.

I think we have two very different views on what is fair and what isn't. I'm still under the mindset that mages in 4th edition have taken a serious power hit next to anything that shoots a weapon. We have a two weapon gun bunny that averages 7 to 8 boxes of damage per shot, and she shoots about 4 times a phase. She's also got about 3 phases. Before anything else can react, she's dropped half of the opposition. Granted, when she found out that there is actually a skill cap, she went from a 22 dice pool to about 19. But that didn't last long, as she started to specilize and get more bonuses.

And there's nothing funny about how she's doing the dice pool. It's all legitimate. And this is why I tell you that a fox shapeshifter, one of the most underpowered metavarients I've ever seen, is unfair. Because she didn't need to spend 50 BP to get what she's got. I have to spend 50 BP and then spend up even more just to make him semi effective.

Last night, I stated him out once more.

Str: 2 Agl: 4 Rec: 4 Bod: 2 Cha: 5 Int: 4 Log: 1 Wil: 5 Mag: 5

I no longer can have my 'good' mage, because my magic, will, and charisma are all stuck at 5. And I don't need people flaming me about making a min/maxed character. In my opinion, if you don't have a magic of 6 and a drain stat of 6, then your mage is going to blow...because he won't be able to cast anything, in a pinch, that'll help your team out.

After that, though, I have to take all the magical requirements. Spellcasting, counterspelling, ritual casting, assening, astral combat (oh, yeah, dual natured is such a curse, but we'll get into that laster), conjuring, banishing, binding. I had enough points to put, like, one point into pistols in the case of me needing a backup. Which I will. And I didn't even have enough points to put into unarmed combat.

Then came the spells. And I had to get the normal things out of the way first. Heal, Power and Mana bolt, and Improved Invisibility. Then I took one 'want' spell, which is Improved Reflexes...and I'm down to about 20 BP. And I'm not even maxing out my stats for any of the skills. I'm in no way versatile. I'm a magical cannon and that's it. I didn't have points to put into anything Stealth related or any Dodge, so I'm going to get found and I'm going to get shot at and hurt. And I've not even bought my focuses, bound spirits, or lifestyle.

And this isn't even talking about how I'll do on a run yet. Sure, I might be able to store an Improved Reflexes and an Improved Invisibility into some focuses, but once I'm found out, I have a whole 4 initiative passes to to sit there and wonder why I can't punch that one guy anymore, and why these bullets seem to be doing massive damage to me, even though my regen is active.

And to top out this list, let's talk about the negative implications of being a shapeshifter in UCAS territories. I'm not considered a sentient being in their eyes. I have no SIN on top of that. If I'm caught ANYWHERE, I'm rewriting the character. I can think of a million and one ways to use a magically charged, shapeshifting animal with more essence then he knows what to do with, and they all involve some kind of disection and painful experimentation to give me enough astral hazing to compete with an army of cyberzombies.

*breaths* Shapeshifters are NOT what they used to be and not worth the points you have to sink into them to make them livable. Granted, there are a lot more options in this game then shapeshifters and they won't even get a good mention anywhere in the the fiction. But I'm letting you know why one of my favorite things to play is now unplayable.

First off it all depends on how the game is set, it differs stongly, from group to group. Also peoples expectations differ.

To me your expectations seem over the top (like the fox thats punching trolls through walls). Also I do not see maxed starting values as mandatory to be viable - though I know, that many will state otherwise.

Mages are still the top dog in my opinion, at least if the know what they do (not implying that you don't). You could even make silver just another metal in your eyes. Again for the stats, with magic 5 and some other 5s I can unleash hell as a mage.

What seems a bit unclear to me is the following. Your gun-fu friend, does she have a pool of 19 from start, with 400BP or is she simply ahead of you in karma? As you seem to be setting up the fox as new character, though you played him before, do the others have to do that as well or just you? Maybe your ST allows you to adjust the powerlevel or grants you access to karma generation with 500 points or so (gets you to spread a bit more).

But back to gunny-bunny. While I do not know her exact setup, I can tell, that a gunpool of 19 costs. Also do not forget, that she will have to split her pool, which are then modifed by boni and mali - shooting multiple targets alone is not healthy for a pool, let aside cover and all that jazz. If your opponents just stand there, your storyteller might be not willing or able to use tactics on the npcs. In that case it'd not too hard to kill them all with a spell, anyways. Note, that everyone with at least 1 pass will act on his first phase, not on the last. Someone with 2,3 or 4 passes still cannot get more than one of them before the others act, but I guess you do know the initiative rules.

Mages should not alone be judged by their combat prowress, as their abilities can be manyfold and you never know what to expect. Your friend may be top at guns, but I doubt that see is at much else. Also take away her guns and see what shes up to then, your magic will be more flexible there.

To have a better understanding of your characters viability it would be helpfull to have you post the stats. What I definately can tell so far, is, that stealth is all doable when you have improved invisibility - although you should be able to squeeze a point of infiltraton into the setup. Also a Fox is not such an unusual sight in many cities I guess, and few people feel threatened by them. Personally, I see foxes all the time and it always makes me smile (because I like Foxes) but I would not so much come to my mind that they'd fry me with a spell...

I guess part of your problem is, that you lost power (probably even in a reasonable manner) and have a hard time adapting. The magic rating of 8 has not been yours to have in the firstplace. Every setup will ave to add things, pay for access to magic, pay for warez and implants, pay for what ever - why should you get it as giveaway? Also it could well be, that I simply do not match the playstyle your game is setup to. I am used to look at the rules as secondary (though still important) and to honor every single point. To me 5s are very viable in most cases.

As I happen to have a shifter character my self (for quite some years now) I know of the perils you have to face, but I do not regret the choice once. The character pays through roleplaying (that's what it about after all) and is viable on it's own or in a group. He teamed up with a Hacker a while ago, as he can deal with flesh but the matrix is still odd and better left to humans and the like. We made a good duo, teaming up with different team mates under different storytellers over a few years. The storyteller we have now, is tough but one of the best I know. He ruled for all characters to be build anew with 400BP. That was a cut to the power level of my character, but I adapted. With the new rules and my trusty regen, I feel perfectly fine. There are many adjustments I'd like to make with karma, but that's ok. Right now I see shifters as more or less balanced, and I like the SR4 version of them more than any of the others.

You do not have to be allpowerfull from the start!

...or ever at all.

I started Crystal out as a normal shifter fox shaman a long time ago. 3rd edition, back about 4 years ago. I never got to use him once personally, because I was always the ST. So as the gun bunny leveled up, I allowed her to take what her player wanted and she soon became very deadly. She ended up an adept with a lot of dice that she only needed TN of 2 on all of them...with machine pistols.

When 4th edition rolled around and I got back into the campaign, he wanted to play his character gun bunny again. I let him. But then we ran into the problem of him being severely underpowered for what he felt his character was. Naturally, I compromised and thought if she had been running for years, she should still have all of her abilities and skills. So I gave him a 200 Karma headstart. This might be very extreme, I understand, but it was about what we ended up with at the end of the 3rd edition campaign.

I also realized I would never actually get to play Crystal for real, but I've had him as an NPC for a long time. I made up some background to why he had not been seen for a while and turned him into a main NPC of the game, a Johnson and a helpful contact. I then thought that there was no reason that I couldn't make him what I thought he should be. I gave him upwards of 300 Karma to reflect his running history, soul searching, and a few trips to the Deep Meta's.

By this time, I knew he was unplayable. Any character that gets that powerful is either dead or onto bigger things then running. But I still had him in the game.

Then came Runner Companion. Since 4th edition, I had been playing him as a human. Now, I could actually factor in his shifter powers and abilities. But before I could, the gun bunny player said he wanted to run a few games. And that I would be able to play a few. I was going to make a new character, but he insisted that I use Crystal. Keep in mind that we were effectively in the same campaign the entire time. He wanted to use his gun bunny during the game.

But then we got into an argument. I said I wanted to have some Karma to start up with as I was technically an experienced runner. And I was running with people that have gotten around 20 - 50 karma to far. He nixed it, telling me that this would be a new character. We went back and forth with this until I finally said I would just make him and did...and have regretted it since I downloaded Runners Companion.

And now you know the story behind why I'm getting angry. Half of this is fueled from having a character I was really attached to be neutered and the other half about not being as viable as I used to be.

But enough of my long winded explanation. I'll now show you why this BP cost for this race is completely unfair for a mage that NEEDS BP to start up their career.

Your mistake, CyrstalBlue, was using BP creation instead of convincing your GM to let you use Karma. If you want to use a Shifter, Free spirit, AI, or the like, Karma is where its at.

First, 50 BP for the fox Shifter metatype. That increases the min/max of Agi, Rec, and Int by 1, then decreases the max of Str by 2 and Bod by 1. So far...



Then, we direct the character in a certain direction. I'm a shaman, though I really want to make my own tradition. But we'll do that later. Shaman needs Will and Charisma to resist drain, and I'd like to cast most of my buff spells into a focus with little to no drain, so I want 10 dice. This is the reason for the 5 Wil and 5 Cha. So that's 80 BP. Next, I want to make sure I don't go down with one hit and I want to stay up in a long coat. Str 2 and Bod 2 for 20 BP. Agi would be nice to get up to 4, same for Rec and Int. Going first and staying mobile will keep me from getting fragged. That's another 60 BP. That's 210 BP so far and my spread looks like this.



Now the unfair part. To be a little one-trick pony, I'd want Magic of 1. To have a few tricks up my sleeve, we're looking at Magic 3. To actually cast magic, I need 5 or 6. I WANT 6, but that's not going to happen with the amount of BP I have left. So let's buy Full Mage and get my...oh wait. I don't get a 1 to magic because I already have a 1 in magic. Well, at least I can cast magic now...right? A magic of 5 will cost me 40 more BP. So let's put that in there.




So, with 150BP left, I should be able to do some things still, right? Wrong. Let's look at what skills I'll need. Keep in mind, the Crystal of old was supposed to be a god at conjuring and controlling spirits. So his skills now will reflect that. He was also a master of Kempo and could at least carry a light or heavy pistol and fire it well enough to hit what he's aiming at.

Summoning at 5, Spellcasting at 5, Binding at 4, Banishing at 2, Counterspelling at 4, Ritual Casting at 1, Pistols at 3, Assening at 1, and Astral Combat at 1. 5+5+4+2+4+1+3+1+1 = 26. 26 * 4 = 104BP. Minus that from what I had before and...uh oh.



So...max, I have 46 points to spend on skills left and spells. Oh, and spirits. And foci. And let's not forget gear and a lifestyle. Not looking so great now, is it? But let's keep pushing on. I have basic spells I'll need as a Mana and Power bolts, Heal, Improved Invis, Improved Reflexes, Alleviate Allergy. That's 6 spells at 3 each. 28 BP left. And now I'll need two focuses. Sustaining focuses. One at level 4 for my Improved Reflexes and one at level 3 for my Improved Invis. They cost 10000 per force. 1 BP for 5000:nuyen:. 10000:nuyen: * total force of 7 = 5000:nuyen: * 14 BP. And that's just to buy them. Then I need 7 BP to bind them. That's 21 BP. I have 7 left. And you know where that's going? Into two Force 5 spirits. One beast, bound, to 4 services and one air, bound, to 3 services.

Final character looks something like this.



I have no stealth, no unarmed combat, I can barely assen or fight on the astral, my spell casting and summoning are good but not going to beat other out-of-the-box mages, and I can shoot straight...maybe.

My character is no where near what he should be. He should be viable. Playable. Fun. This is not fun. This is forcing me into a bunch of stats that I do not like.

Really? What would I get for the Karma way instead? I haven't read that closely yet.

Here's your issue:



You're trying to create a character was experienced and powerful from previous editions, and you're being asked to recreate it as a starting character, which you refuse to do.

Until you get past this, you'll never be happy with any character, shifter or otherwise. Your issue is a personal one you need to resolve with your GM, not a mechanical one.

EDIT: Also, you can't get a Force 4 Sustaining Focus without the Restricted Gear Quality. And on a related note: where's your character's flaws? That's another 35 right there!

I just said, I was willing to make a new character. I actually was going to make a SURGE'd human wolf shaman. But he INSISTED that I make Crystal, and make him like I did before, but without the Karma.

And I assumed he'd let me at least have the force 4 sustaining focus with him screwing everything else over on me.

you don't pay for race in karmagen.

also, karmagen allows you to diversify much more than BP does... so getting a 4 in multiple skills is much more doable.

i would have to say, however, that the real problem here is that you're trying to create a highly experienced runner with 400 BP and no karma, when before the character had 300 karma or whatever on top of 400 BP.

so of course he's not gonna be impressive compared to what you expect. you're envisioning someone who's done 300 karma worth of runs, and you've got someone who's done 0...

also, i would point out that with the way 4th edition works, skills in general are much lower. relatively speaking, a 6 in 4th is like a 10+ in 3rd probably.

finally, i have to say, i agree with everyone else in guessing there's something a little odd about the effectiveness of your pistol adept... 19 dice split in 2 is only 9 dice in each pool, losing 2 dice on the second target (i'll assume recoil at least isn't a problem)... so you're throwing 9 dice at the first target (remember, no smartlink bonus also if you factored that in) and 7 dice at the second target. assuming you actually even manage to kill the first target with your 9 dice (assume the target has reaction 3, so we'll give you an estimated 2 net hits. that's gonna be 7 DV, or 8 with ex-ex, facing the target's probable soak of 9 dice, dropping it to 4 or 5 damage... so 2 hits to drop someone, and it may or may not even be doing physical).

that doesn't sound very overpowered to me.

For one thing, race is free, meaning that the only new characters who get screwed by BP costs are infected.

Second, a magic rating of 6 costs 60 karma (Σ 2<=n<=6 n*3) , which is equivalent to 30BP.

Third, skills and stats are incredibly cheap if you don't raise them absurdly high. It encourages characters with lower and more balanced stats and skills compared to the other systems; but you can still crank out one or two absurdly high dice pools.



All high-cost and low-stat options come off better using karma. AIs have it best; they can chargen soft-max their attributes for 246 Karma, leaving 504 for everything else in a standard 750 karma build. Shapeshifters can make a good go of it. if you don't go crazy with the 6, 7s and 8s.

I'll have to look at it when I get home and see how it works. There's got to be a drawback from that system.

And I don't know how he gets it so high. He used the karma I gave him for the character to get a pistol skill to 10, spec it out to 12, he's got at least a 6 in agility and took the adept power to increase that to 7 or 8. That's about 20 right there before he adds in his bonuses from the guns, which I know he has. And he seemed to have 'house ruled' himself to be able to use smart-linked and-or laser sights for duel wielding. I don't know how, but at one point he made enough sense to me when he was talking about it to make me believe and give it to him.

And I really don't want to play a new, powerful character. I even told them that if I had to play Crystal, I wouldn't enjoy him the way I'd have to play him. I'm just miffed that these new races are so god-awfully expensive and screw you over when you're a mage.

Why are you guys playing such a disparate assortment of characters, experience-wise? Why are you all so concerned about the min-max aspect? You don't seem to be at all pleased with it, and obviously it's caused at least one argument already.


Hi, this is Shadowrun, have we met before?

well, if you're going to houserule the pistols adept to be superpowerful, then don't be surprised if he's superpowerful. by the sound of it, though, he's bought aptitude (that's 10 points) then maxed his skill, then taken 3 levels of improved ability(pistols) (1.5 power points) and then he's spent a ton of power points on improved physical attribute, unless you've houseruled that too (i did mention that if you houseruled the pistols adept to be super powerful, you have no room to complain about the pistol adept being super powerful, right?)

now then, as far as the drawbacks to using karmagen... no, not really. there isn't one. it will generally lead to more powerful and versatile characters, unless of course you houseruled BP chargen somewhat.

I didn't houserule anything. *sigh* I play with a limited player base and bratty gun adepts. It's either that or Shadowrun never happens in this city.

So then use 2 things to your advantage. First, stick to the rules HARD, and make sure those bratty gun adepts are following every rule and not trying to pull one over on you. Second, use tactics with your NPC's to reduce the effectiveness of the gun bunnies. Firing from cover, multiple opponents, vision modifiers, etc etc etc. Don't let them have their 20 dice to hit them. If your Fox was due to be a martial artist, they'll be less hindered by all those because they'll be up in the NPC's faces, and it's perfectly legit.

Honestly, you've got people minmaxing in your group, and it sounds like you're upset your character can't be as potent because of how they tweaked things. In the world of Min-maxing, that's *always* gonna be the case.

The only possible problem you have with using my suggestions that I listed would be if you have whiny bratty players, rather than characters, who will get pissed the first sign of you nerfing them (which is exactly how they'd take all the combat modifiers, if they're that kind of person). But then, if that's the people you have as players, new players may be in order.

EDIT: If you find the players have weasled on a rule or two, and you need to correct things, take the blame to avoid a conflict. Mention that you screwed up and overlooked some stuff, and then slam down the borders of Rules As Written and get everything corrected, even if it means you have to recreate characters. If you start with full control, it's easier to maintain and your players won't walk all over you. That said, use the rules you have to help your NPC's as well. They're not dumb. They're not just gonna stand there. Make them living, breathing threats and it'll be more fun for everyone

I get the impression, and I could be wrong, that he was previously the GM but that one of his previous min-maxed players is now the GM and is turning the tables. The new GM is keeping his tweaked-gunbunny, and then forcing his former GM to make his ubershifter a starting character.

Which is... lame.

If your hunch is right, then that's not just lame. That's flat out bulldrek. Seriously, you don't run a high-karma character along side a new character and expect the player to not be disgruntled.

Seriously.

Quoted for stupidity. Thwack him with the hardcover I say. Especially as you yourself seem to be a generous GM (I approve!).

How long have I been gone... gosh...

Well I see your problems a bit more clearly now and they mostly have been addressed. You are not expecting crystal to be a starter, while you only have starting points. That is the main problem with those points, rather than an unfair system. I somewhat feel your pain though, characters that have acted before need to stay true to their vision.

Karma Gen is indeed your way to go, if you are allowed to use it, you'll get most of what you want.

Your gunny-bunny friend seems to be ripping you off one way or the other (or both). Maybe I am getting you wrong again but 6 is the hardcap for a natural skillrating, so a 10 doesn't seem possible, not even with an aptitude. Ofcause she can buy more gunskill with adept powers, but those will have to be split aswell. Further I read her to have improved agility, which is highly expensive 1 powerpoint below and 2 above natural maximum. Either shes having a shitload of power points (by initiation or such) or somethings wrong.

Let's see Agil 6, Pistols 6 (and a semiauto spec.) thats 12 (+2). Increased Reflexes 2 for 3 points, Increased Pistols 2(max would be 3) for 1 point and Increased Agil for 2 (never would pick that). We are ending up at 15(+2). Smartguns aplly only to one-weapon-use. So that Adept can get some nifty pool of 15/2 (gives us 7 and +2 each, makes 9 and 10. Sounds good so far, at least if she is ambidex and taking one target. As you describe her to fire 4 times (two per weapon) She should better have recoil compensation, else she looses 2 dice per on each weapon, as the recoil of each applies to both.

The target would get 4 dodge rolls. The first with full pool, the second at -1, the third at -2 and so on.

If gunny bunny has two targets she gets another -2 for the second target. Let's not think so much about the fact that the enemies might be more than 5 meters away, moving or in cover.

However it is an effective setup for guns, and guns mostly. You should check gunny-bunny for rule tampering though.

Back to foxy, you are a free person, so play a new character if you want or have your friend, give you karma gen / BP plus the average of karma the team has earned. If you mostly are the storyteller, you earned it no less than they did - also a homogenous powerlevel is good for balance.

isath: with aptitude, you can get a skill to 7 naturally. add in 3 levels of improved ability(pistols) and you get 10 skill. or at least, 7(10) skill which is close enough.

add into that 7 dice from agility, 2 from specialisation, and you get 19. this is before throwing in the possibility of being an elf with the quality to raise his max agility... those would bring his unaugmented max in agility to 8, but the implication is that he's a human with 5(7) or 6( agility afaict.

but yes, definitely not an impressive dice pool once you split it in two, and especially not when you start applying modifiers for cover, movement, visibility, etc.

not really all that impressive imo if you start applying the rules, as you suggested (and really, security forces should be tossing thermal smoke grenades left and right, turning off the lights, taking cover, etc. their goal is not to kill the runners, it's to hold off until the HTR team shows up, their astral security provider sends over a spirit or 3, their drone rigger squad from head office brings the squad of hunter-killer drones online, etc. the regular security forces should have the goal of 'hold them off until the big guns show up'. they should not be standing in the open, in good visibility, taking risks with their lives. these guys are paid minimum wage, and their only job is to call for help, and then not die for a long enough time period that help arives. most of them will be more than willing to do their best at not getting killed, and will use the means their employer provides to slow the runner team down without exposing themselves to deadly situations as much as possible.

This all boils down to how soft I've run the game before and how the other players aren't that challanged anymore, so their characters seem much more broken then they are. Honestly, every time I've tried to get them into a corp building, they've found and tried every plan to get the target out of the building instead so that they don't have to take on those close quarters battles.

But I want to focus on this BP buying thing again. Is it seriously this bad that shifters and infected get screwed over on BP because they have to waste so much and then buy stats and skills like normal? I mean, maybe if you gave me a little more then a few pluses and minuses to stats, I would be grateful, but my fox will barely take a few bullets before I'm gone. And I have no BP left after the minimum stuff to get stealthy...I sure hope Karma Buy isn't too much on the other side of this fence.

well, if you know about the rules for fox shapeshifters, you have access to the rules for karma chargen. look it up.

If you need to have many low attributes and skills, 750 karma can go as far as 600 very inefficiently spend BP.

Karma system can be, as every system, used for min/maxing, that's nothig new. But I see it as a system for easy adjustment, and as such it works more than fine.

Shifters and infected are not screwed, the problem still is, that your expectations are to high. They are rare and pontentially powerfull options and pay for both. Normaly you will ahve to really want to play that, else you do not get along with the narrowed points. I still see them as viable, they may be starting out with less skills or such, but they come with some raw potential. Again regen is quite a power to have. Though regeneration is so much an abillity to shower in bullets and live to tell, but something that heals you rapidly, while your playing on time. Those guards may be taking cover, but doing so refreshes your health if your wounded, time is on your side (somewhat).

Being a fox is not that bad after all and I pointed that out, but you do not want to see that I guess, as your problem lies elsewhere.

Also as has been pointed out, you can make a decent build, but you are trying to do more than that. With what you are going for, I can not really help you. 400BP are for starter setups and that is not what you are aiming for, and I wont tell you that your slice of bread tastes like a steak, just because you want a steak. 400 BP always works out narrow but it works out fine, for starters.

Karma gen is your friend, especially in your case, it will lead to a more pleasing result.