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Wanderer
What price (either in services and favors, or a true street price in nuyen and Availability) would you deem right if a character wants to purchase Infection with HMHVV-I for oneself ? Pretty much everything has a price in the shadows, so becoming a vampire/banshee/wendigo/nosferatu should be no exception. True, OOC the change is paid in karma points, but IC it is "just" a matter of convincing an Infected NPC to met the volunteer in the appropriate circumstances and use its Infection power on them. Surely some Infected exist that are sufficiently pragmatic and businesslike to be willing to perform the service for the right price. What's that price ?
Cyntax
Hell if I know, but I know if it were me and I had the cash I'd pay it.
HappyDaze
QUOTE
OOC the change is paid in karma points, but IC it is "just" a matter <<<>>> the right price. What's that price ?

If you want to keep to the mechanics, 200 karma = 500,000 nuyen. Not bad.
Cang
well i am not going to give you a nuyen cost but i will give you some food for thought.

1. Infected are predators with a limited resource. I mean yea, there are millions of people to pick from but its one more person to fight over the easy picks and one more to get people angry enough to go around and lynch anyone that is pale.

2. There are some infected that just won't want to infect you. I mean, i am sure you can find someone to give aids to you for a price, but im sure there will be alot of people who will refuse to because it's just plain crazy and suicidal.

3. There is a chance that you will die or become retarded when you get infected, so it isn't 100% chance that you will be lord of the shadows. Just food for thought while you are looking for that special someone.

4. You will have to get your essence down to 0 to become of vampire so you can't just get bitten to turn into one. You also can't get injected or have one spit in your mouth.

Well after that, all i can say is you can probable find someone who will do it for cheap (well for a shadowrunner). The problem is finding someone and then have them willing to do it. You can't just go to vamps r us. The mostly don't run in secret cults or orgies. If you want to be a ghoul, that shouldn't be that hard but if you want to be a vampire you are going to have to work for it.
Squinky
"Sure Pal, I've got a friend right around the corner who can take care of that for you....Just pay up, go to sleep, and when you wake up you will be Vampire hunter D"
Isath
Indeed it's a good business idea for roaming bio-traders. "Oh, we will make you a vampire all right...first we need to inject you with the Virus...just hold still."

Gosh you reap peoples organs and they even pay you for it... what a doubledeal.

Oh...and it works perfectly vor vampires aswell ^^

"Gimme all your money and serve me for some time, then, when you are ready, I will grant you eternity"

Rip 'em of, if have them work for you and finally suck them dry, while they think you are infecting them.

That will be the price I guess.
MJBurrage
I approach a Vampire through a mutual fixer. I put an agreed upon amount of Nuyen in an escrow account. We go into a locked and properly guarded room. If we both come out vampires the sire gets paid. If I don't come out neither does the sire.

Whats the price?
Wanderer
QUOTE (MJBurrage @ Aug 12 2008, 02:47 AM) *
I approach a Vampire through a mutual fixer. I put an agreed upon amount of Nuyen in an escrow account. We go into a locked and properly guarded room. If we both come out vampires the sire gets paid. If I don't come out neither does the sire.

Whats the price?


Indeed. It is assumed that the buyer takes whatever sensible precautions to ensure that the vampire or nosferatu does not double-cross him. This is not about Infected-themed scams. It is about the features of the real thing.
Wanderer
QUOTE (Cang @ Aug 12 2008, 01:53 AM) *
1. Infected are predators with a limited resource. I mean yea, there are millions of people to pick from but its one more person to fight over the easy picks and one more to get people angry enough to go around and lynch anyone that is pale.


This is why they won't do it cheaply. OTOH, the Sixth World is huge, and those who have the resources, connections, and savy to contact a businesslike vampire or nosferatu and pay the price he asks for, aren't many.

QUOTE
2. There are some infected that just won't want to infect you. I mean, i am sure you can find someone to give aids to you for a price, but im sure there will be alot of people who will refuse to because it's just plain crazy and suicidal.


By the same reasoning, there are definitely some Infected that don't mind sharing the virus, as long as the right price or service is given.

QUOTE
3. There is a chance that you will die or become retarded when you get infected, so it isn't 100% chance that you will be lord of the shadows. Just food for thought while you are looking for that special someone.


The risk of death does exist, but those who purposefully seek Infection may effectively fail to resist the transformation.

RC, p. 83:

A character may burn a point of Edge to either guarantee they pass
the test—and die in peace—or to deliberately fail the test and gain
a shot at life again as one of the Infected
.

As it concerns the risk of cognitive loss, it is a concrete risk only for dwarves. All other metatypes exit the HMHVV-I transformation with their intellectual faculties as good as before, or even improved.

QUOTE
4. You will have to get your essence down to 0 to become of vampire so you can't just get bitten to turn into one. You also can't get injected or have one spit in your mouth.


That's why the smart buyer of vampirism needs to take sensible precautions over the act. Payment completed after the new Infected awakens, transformation performed in a secure, guarded area under the survelliance of trusted companions.

QUOTE
Well after that, all i can say is you can probable find someone who will do it for cheap (well for a shadowrunner). The problem is finding someone and then have them willing to do it. You can't just go to vamps r us. The mostly don't run in secret cults or orgies. If you want to be a ghoul, that shouldn't be that hard but if you want to be a vampire you are going to have to work for it.


Yes, an extensive amount of physical and/or Matrix legwork is definitely going to be necessary. That's why I wished to hammer down an Availability for the service.
Squinky
QUOTE (MJBurrage @ Aug 11 2008, 08:47 PM) *
I approach a Vampire through a mutual fixer. I put an agreed upon amount of Nuyen in an escrow account. We go into a locked and properly guarded room. If we both come out vampires the sire gets paid. If I don't come out neither does the sire.

Whats the price?


Make sure you chemically seal the room too, darn mist form smile.gif
Zaranthan
Only one comment here:
QUOTE (Wanderer @ Aug 11 2008, 09:10 PM) *
Yes, an extensive amount of physical and/or Matrix legwork is definitely going to be necessary. That's why I wished to hammer down an Availability for the service.

I'd say it requires whatever legwork you have available, as it's one of those "life-shattering upgrades" that calls for a run in and of itself, rather than a mere Availability test.
toturi
Like everything else in the game, Pornomancer vampire, baby...

Come on, gimme a bite, you know you want to...
HappyDaze
QUOTE
Make sure you chemically seal the room too, darn mist form

Wood ceilings, floors, and panelling along with some cellulose fiber filters will be fine since touching a substance that the vanmpire is allergic to will knock out Mist Form.
hyzmarca
Vampirism is available at chargen, so I'd put it at Availability 12.

You just get on the Matrix, put an ad up on Craigslist, and Vlad5799 shoots an email your way. Three says work, for a rare creature that tends to attract not nice people, I'd put it at $150,000 - negotiable.

The precautions to ensure that Vlad5799 is on the level, however, would be much more expensive.

But, yes, pornomancer vampire is the way to go. Let the bloodsucker take a bite out of your custom troll-sized MP3 player-equipped genitals.

Wanderer
QUOTE (HappyDaze @ Aug 12 2008, 01:53 AM) *
If you want to keep to the mechanics, 200 karma = 500,000 nuyen. Not bad.


Well, that seems a sensible option since it compares with getting a Age Rejuvenation treatment. Since the IC main benefit of Infection is immortality: it brings the drawbacks of the Infected lifrestyle, but it's forever and it gives some substantial power benefits, so it roughly balances out. It is pricey, but not impossible for successful runners.

Of course, following this model, this is true for becoming a vampire or wendigo. For the nosferatu option, 300 karma = 600,000 nuyen.

What about banshees ? Would they get a discount ? If we follow the OOC strict nuyen = karma rule, they ought to. OTOH, why IC should an Infected bother to charge less ?
VagabondStar
What would the street index be?


You could always bring the Ordo Maximus in... and that would create its own issues.
Wanderer
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Aug 12 2008, 04:50 AM) *
Vampirism is available at chargen, so I'd put it at Availability 12.

You just get on the Matrix, put an ad up on Craigslist, and Vlad5799 shoots an email your way. Three says work, for a rare creature that tends to attract not nice people, I'd put it at $150,000 - negotiable.

The precautions to ensure that Vlad5799 is on the level, however, would be much more expensive.

But, yes, pornomancer vampire is the way to go. Let the bloodsucker take a bite out of your custom troll-sized MP3 player-equipped genitals.


So maybe could we take the nuyen = karma rate that Happydaze suggested as the total bill, expenses included, or would you suggest a lower total than that, too ?
hyzmarca
Sure, that works. You've got the high security sealed and warded meeting room for at least three days, the blood for when you wake up hungry and for the vamp to snack on, closed circuit pay-per-sim to give the vampire entertainment while waiting for you to revive while still denying matrix access (because you wouldn't want him contacting a strike team) and guards, of course.

Of course, you've also got the embarrassing stigma of buying vampirism from a guy named Vlad who you met on the Matrix.
JudgementLoaf
Heck, I am willing to bet some less than scrupulous biomod firms might be willing to arrange the deal for the price of medical data. After all, having a real live subject undergo the change hooked up to all the medical monitors and sensors that money can buy has got to be worth something. Not to mention than any corp. willing to infect someone would have a lot of leverage over the individual, both in terms of HHMVV, plus whatever else nasty they wanted to implant while you were sleeping....
hyzmarca
QUOTE (JudgementLoaf @ Aug 12 2008, 03:48 AM) *
the change


This is the first time I've considered vampirism as a metaphor for menopause. Given that vampires are infertile, it is an interpretation that makes perfect sense and there is something cool about it.



And it probably explains a great deal of Anne Rice's later work.
toturi
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Aug 12 2008, 04:34 PM) *
This is the first time I've considered vampirism as a metaphor for menopause. Given that vampires are infertile, it is an interpretation that makes perfect sense and there is something cool about it.

And it probably explains a great deal of Anne Rice's later work.

I have tea in my nose. grinbig.gif
Jaid
SR vampires are not infertile though.

i mean, some of them can't infect other people, but there are rules for vampires who were born vampires, so obviously they aren't infertile. though how a newborn infant manages to essence drain is beyond me... i guess probably the parents have to allow the infant to drain instinctively from them or something...
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Jaid @ Aug 12 2008, 02:12 PM) *
SR vampires are not infertile though.

i mean, some of them can't infect other people, but there are rules for vampires who were born vampires, so obviously they aren't infertile. though how a newborn infant manages to essence drain is beyond me... i guess probably the parents have to allow the infant to drain instinctively from them or something...


There are rules for ghouls who are born ghouls and loup-garou who are born loup-garou, but the rules specifically state that vampire fetuses are unable to develop properly and die quickly. Though it might be possible for a vampire to impregnate or become pregnant, a miscarriage is certain long before the fetus could possibly be viable, probably long before the pregnancy is even noticed.

and remember, a vampire fetus would have Immunity to Age from conception. Even if implantation can be ensured via advanced medical technology, a 9 moth old vampire fetus would, thanks to this Immunity, be at exactly the same stage of development as a 1 second old vampire zygote.
MJBurrage
I don't have my books handy, but immunity to aging and not developing normally are two different things. Aging is the degeneration that starts sometime in your twenties, that some researchers think we might be able to "cure" someday. Development through puberty is very different.

I know in some vampire stories, turning a child into one makes them stop developing, but unless the SR rules state this, Immunity to aging should not stop normal growth and development.
hermit
QUOTE (Wanderer @ Aug 12 2008, 01:01 AM) *
What price (either in services and favors, or a true street price in nuyen and Availability) would you deem right if a character wants to purchase Infection with HMHVV-I for oneself ? Pretty much everything has a price in the shadows, so becoming a vampire/banshee/wendigo/nosferatu should be no exception. True, OOC the change is paid in karma points, but IC it is "just" a matter of convincing an Infected NPC to met the volunteer in the appropriate circumstances and use its Infection power on them. Surely some Infected exist that are sufficiently pragmatic and businesslike to be willing to perform the service for the right price. What's that price ?

+10 Notoriety, and Bad Rep. Also, being the servant/slave of the creator vampire for the next 100 years.
Wanderer
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Aug 12 2008, 05:19 AM) *
Of course, you've also got the embarrassing stigma of buying vampirism from a guy named Vlad who you met on the Matrix.


Embarassment is fleeting. Immortal Power endures. biggrin.gif cool.gif
JudgementLoaf
QUOTE
This is the first time I've considered vampirism as a metaphor for menopause. Given that vampires are infertile, it is an interpretation that makes perfect sense and there is something cool about it.



And it probably explains a great deal of Anne Rice's later work.



Thats amazing. Hats off to you sir.
FlashbackJon
Y'know...

If your team has played "On the Run"...
[ Spoiler ]
Isath


As an Infected, I'd be even more paranoid then before. I know it is not about double crossing, but that usually is the price for power. The Escrow account may be fair deal, but as the infected the deal would go my way or the highway. The infection would take place where and when I want it to or it simply doesn't. The wannabe vampire would be in no position to make demands, either he's desperate and dumb enough to trust me (in which case I'd lean thowards killing him) or nothing will be dealt.

There are enough ways to make money for a vampire.

If someone is more willing and well minded on the matter of infection for money, I'd say it'll cost what ever comes to his mind. I do not see an "off the shelf" fix pricing here. Hermits approach sounds somewhat reasonable though.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (MJBurrage @ Aug 12 2008, 02:36 PM) *
I don't have my books handy, but immunity to aging and not developing normally are two different things. Aging is the degeneration that starts sometime in your twenties, that some researchers think we might be able to"cure" someday. Development thropugh puberty is very different.

I know in some vampire stories, turning a child into one makes them stop developing, but unless the SR rules state this, Immunity to aging should not stop normal growth and development.


Should I?

Yes, I should.

QUOTE (RC)
banshees, dzoo-noo-qua, goblins, nosfaratu, and vampires pass the virus along in the germ line, and the fetus fails to develop properly


QUOTE (RC)
A character can represent children Infected with the Neotony
trait, which they may take as a quality (see p. 117). his option is only available to Infected with the Immunity (Age) power.


QUOTE (RC)
Neotenous characters have halted during development and
etain the physical traits of a child or adolescent



QUOTE (Isath @ Aug 12 2008, 03:31 PM) *
As an Infected, I'd be even more paranoid then before. I know it is not about double crossing, but that usually is the price for power. The Escrow account may be fair deal, but as the infected the deal would go my way or the highway. The infection would take place where and when I want it to or it simply doesn't. The wannabe vampire would be in no position to make demands, either he's desperate and dumb enough to trust me (in which case I'd lean thowards killing him) or nothing will be dealt.

There are enough ways to make money for a vampire.

If someone is more willing and well minded on the matter of infection for money, I'd say it'll cost what ever comes to his mind. I do not see an "off the shelf" fix pricing here. Hermits approach sounds somewhat reasonable though.


The key is to use a neutral third party who has no reason to betray either side for security and mediation, so that no one has an advantage and no one can betray the other without certain death.
hermit
QUOTE (FlashbackJon @ Aug 12 2008, 09:24 PM) *
Y'know...

If your team has played "On the Run"...
[ Spoiler ]

Because

[ Spoiler ]


QUOTE
The key is to use a neutral third party who has no reason to betray either side for security and mediation, so that no one has an advantage and no one can betray the other without certain death.

Yeah. There are two organisations who might consider offering such services, and I wouldn't want to pay the price either the Ordo or Tamanous would likely demand.

Actually, that'd propably add an extra Point of Notoriety to a character's rep. Which would give the newborn vampire a notoriety of a whooping +14. I'd kindly doupt anyone except very special pro-vampire people would hire him then.
Wanderer
QUOTE (Isath @ Aug 12 2008, 09:31 PM) *
As an Infected, I'd be even more paranoid then before. I know it is not about double crossing, but that usually is the price for power. The Escrow account may be fair deal, but as the infected the deal would go my way or the highway. The infection would take place where and when I want it to or it simply doesn't. The wannabe vampire would be in no position to make demands, either he's desperate and dumb enough to trust me (in which case I'd lean thowards killing him) or nothing will be dealt.

There are enough ways to make money for a vampire.

If someone is more willing and well minded on the matter of infection for money, I'd say it'll cost what ever comes to his mind. I do not see an "off the shelf" fix pricing here. Hermits approach sounds somewhat reasonable though.


Your stance would certainly be representative of those Infected that are too paranoid to accept this kind of bargain, and surely there are many. However, IMO in that case the cleanest option is simply to refuse the bargain. Double-crossing and killing the petitioner is IMO deeply stupid, it would just establish your reputation in the shadows as a wholly untrustworthy Judas that can't simply be dealt with. Something no one with a legally questionable lifestyle can live for long with.

However, just like psychological realism tells there are many too-paranoid Infected, logic and psychology tells there have to be several Infected that are businesslike enough to accept the deal, and trustworthy/honorable/professional/pragmatic enough to honor a bargain the other side manages in good faith. The thread's assumption is that the deal is stricken with this kind of Infected.

About the pricing, I just assume that the globalized runner subculture is big and complex enough that a kinda standard street standrad (subject to intensive negotiations of course) emerges for this kind of bargain, too. They have created reference prices for pretty much any kind of gear, information, personal enhancement, and service.
Apathy
Haven't bought RC yet (hasn't made it to my FLGS). Do they say anything about the overall population of the various types of Infected? Being a free (black) market and presumably following supply and demand, the cost of infection would vary greatly depending on whether there were 10,000 vamps in the city or only 6.
Wanderer
QUOTE (hermit @ Aug 12 2008, 08:48 PM) *
+10 Notoriety, and Bad Rep. Also, being the servant/slave of the creator vampire for the next 100 years.


I can certainly see the creator vampire or nosferatu claiming right to an unlimited numbers of services or favors within a limited timespan instead of or in addition to nuyen, but IMO becoming the personal servant/slave of the creator would be stupid and excessive. The new vampire/banshee/wendigo/nosferatu is much more useful to the creator if he is left free to establish an indepedent power base out there in the shadows, only called for as needs arise for favors, than if it's kept hand and foot as a personal BDSM handservant or somesuch.

+ 10 Notoriety is IMO grossly excessive. You only ought to build up such if you capriciously double-cross rows and rows of Johnsons, and ineptly blow up scores of missions.
Isath
Still I guess the mortal would be in need of the bargain more than the vampire (normaly) - I would not accept any terms that I did not come up with. As with the reputation in the shadows...who said that I'd be a runner. Also there are enough means to frame another one with the death of that poor guy, that hated life so much. There are much harder tasks out there. However, people say "never deal with a dragon" and "never trust an elf" for centuries now, how do they come to the assumption, that they should trust a vampire... so much for notoriety and rep. wink.gif

Most people would try to get rid of vampires anyways, as they are assumed to be murderers, no matter if they are or not.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (hermit @ Aug 12 2008, 04:17 PM) *
Yeah. There are two organisations who might consider offering such services, and I wouldn't want to pay the price either the Ordo or Tamanous would likely demand.


Actually, Ordo or Tanamous. You just need to rent a secure warded meeting room for a few days and have a neutral third-party fixer hook you both up with some shadowrunners. The runners are ordered to wait outside the room for the necessary amount of time and kill either party if there is a double-cross. Hell, the runners don't even have to know what exactly is going on. For all they know, it could be some sort of kinky sex game. The key is that the runners are neutral, having no reason to favor either party, and are ordered to kill any betrayer no matter who it is.

Any "don't ask, don't tell" business meeting security service would be sufficient, really.
Rasumichin
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Aug 12 2008, 08:57 PM) *
For all they know, it could be some sort of kinky sex game.


Wait, are you telling us getting your blood sucked out in a state of extreme emotional arousal isn't some sort of kinky sex game? grinbig.gif
hermit
QUOTE
About the pricing, I just assume that the globalized runner subculture is big and complex enough that a kinda standard street standrad (subject to intensive negotiations of course) emerges for this kind of bargain, too.

For everyone but the most dumb and gullible (or desperate) runners, that price would be "kill it, drag it's corpse to Quebec and sell it there to the authorities", I think. Sorry, but the Infected aren't quite popular. Just like Organlegging is iffy even in the shadow subculture. YMMV, and your groups, of course, but in most groups and canon fiction, that's how it's handled.

Possibly, there would be ways to get in contact with such Vampires, I already mentioned the Ordo and Tamanous. However, even asking around for that kind of service might stain your rep, as, like I said above, the Infected are NOT POPULAR in the least.

QUOTE
Wait, are you telling us getting your blood sucked out in a state of extreme emotional arousal isn't some sort of kinky sex game?

Kinky sex games is all Vampires are about anyway, right? wink.gif Or at least for the crowd that absolutly needs to paly vampires in any game they play ...

QUOTE
The key is that the runners are neutral, having no reason to favor either party, and are ordered to kill any betrayer no matter who it is.

If the runners don't mind vampires, possibly. If not, THEY might doublecross both parties and just kill them. I somehow don't see their rep getting much of a stain for offing two vampires.

Cannot believe I missed that one:
QUOTE
I can certainly see the creator vampire or nosferatu claiming right to an unlimited numbers of services or favors within a limited timespan instead of or in addition to nuyen, but IMO becoming the personal servant/slave of the creator would be stupid and excessive. The new vampire/banshee/wendigo/nosferatu is much more useful to the creator if he is left free to establish an indepedent power base out there in the shadows, only called for as needs arise for favors, than if it's kept hand and foot as a personal BDSM handservant or somesuch.

How, exactly, would it serve a creator to generate a competitor he has not under control? Either they keep their "sire" around as pets/slaves/stooges, or they chase them out of town so they don't overpopulate their hunting grounds.

QUOTE
+ 10 Notoriety is IMO grossly excessive. You only ought to build up such if you capriciously double-cross rows and rows of Johnsons, and ineptly blow up scores of missions.

Why? It's pretty mild, considering I didn't put in hung out to dry, actually. Lots of people will not want to deal with you for various reasons, from not wanting to meet the demon the character has become to uneasyness about talking to someone who considers them food to not wanting to be seen with a vampire and be associatred with them in any way.
Jaid
i would tend to operate under the assumption that tamanous has connections all over the place. sure, nobody likes them, but imo a lot of people in the shadows have little choice but to deal with them; they certainly aren't the only ones operating black clinics, but they are a strong force in that market, and even the clinics they don't run they probably supply.

so while it might get you some dirty looks, people are much more likely to assume you're looking for a second-hand set of skillwires than they are to assume you're looking for a vampire to infect you. now, whether or not tamanous deals in infecting people? i dunno. at most, i would say they probably know a vampire or two who buys blood from them, and they might be willing to arrange a meeting, but i just don't see tamanous actually employing vampires to infect people for a price... there's lots of black clinics out there who'll buy 'ware without asking questions, but i don't see a huge market for infecting people with HMHVV, particularly when a lot of people probably are more worried about living through the next week, never mind the next century or millenium.

on the other hand, the vampires buying blood from tamanous are probably the ones who don't like killing people. simply having a person who is willing to undergo essence drain sufficient to feed those vampires for half a year is probably a temptation for some vampires; they may not like turning people into vampires, but they probably prefer to turn willing people into vampires over draining unwilling people and potentially turning them into vampires.
hermit
QUOTE
i would tend to operate under the assumption that tamanous has connections all over the place. sure, nobody likes them, but imo a lot of people in the shadows have little choice but to deal with them; they certainly aren't the only ones operating black clinics, but they are a strong force in that market, and even the clinics they don't run they probably supply.

And the shadow community is immune to bigotry, or is it? I always saw them like Untouchables ... their services are kinda nescessary and everyone deals with them once in a while, but neither likes them nor openly would admit it.

QUOTE
so while it might get you some dirty looks, people are much more likely to assume you're looking for a second-hand set of skillwires than they are to assume you're looking for a vampire to infect you.

Especially if youa sk around who could make you a vampire. And because nooone in Tamanous has loose lips and might talk about the character asking around about being vampirized.

QUOTE
on the other hand, the vampires buying blood from tamanous are probably the ones who don't like killing people. simply having a person who is willing to undergo essence drain sufficient to feed those vampires for half a year is probably a temptation for some vampires; they may not like turning people into vampires, but they probably prefer to turn willing people into vampires over draining unwilling people and potentially turning them into vampires.

If they're so people-friendly, would they realy want to increase the vampire population, which would make competition about willing sacrifices all the harder on them, forcing them to do smething they don't want to do? I don't see that. I rather see a vampire keeping emo goth butterfly types around as an essence source and paying for regular regeneration therapy, so they have a never ending essence well.
Rasumichin
QUOTE (hermit @ Aug 12 2008, 09:16 PM) *
Kinky sex games is all Vampires are about anyway, right? wink.gif Or at least for the crowd that absolutly needs to paly vampires in any game they play ...


Vampirism always had strong sexual connotations, and given how their feeding habits usually turn out in examples from Stoker and Murnau to Rice and Whedon, highly problematic ones.

Presenting a playable vampire always confronts the problem of either trivializing the ethic problems their predatory and abusive nature entails, in the way action and adventure movies trivialize physical conflict and make it acceptable for a mass audience by channeling it into accepted, codified modes of operation, or by turning the oh-so-desperate struggle for humanity into the whiny, patchouli-scathed centre of the game.

I'm not going to dicuss the latter aproach, everybody in their right minds knows how trite and pubescent that is.

The former one might work, but will remain superficial and burdened with a shallow aftertaste, unless you happen to play in Sunnydale, CA and turn it into something witty and entertaining.


SR, however, offers a third approach- and one that is not a retrofitted way to adapt to a demand for an even newer WoD, but one that was inherent to the setting since first edition.

SR, to me, was always about deconstructing the clichés carried over from traditional renditions of fantasy tropes.
Breaking up genre norms.
Presenting a postmodern approach towards the fantastic.

All of a sudden, orks, the sword-fodder of fantasy RPGs, where claimed to be people, too.
Where turned from inhuman dungeon denizens, from the evil, doubly-fascistoid servant race of tolkienesque fantasy, into a discriminated subspecies of humanity struggling for public recognition and freedom from racist persecution, trying to come to terms with a society that took -and still takes- fantasy conventions for granted.

And vampires where no longer the mythical sexual predators of legend, but humans with a viral infection.

Ghoul rights have been an issue since Neo-Anarchist's Guide To North America, which shouldn't surprise anyone, given the tendencies of the game i have mentioned above.
And it shouldn't surprise anyone either that the devs have finally decided to fully pursue that approach by letting some jurisdictions grant civil rights to the infected.
It is not only fitting for SR- not having such a development in the game world would be against the core of what SR always was about.

The way to incorporate this into your game is easy.
Vamp PCs, stop your whining.
Get to accept that you are totally screwed, but get cool superpowers.
They might or might not make up for the downsides of being a vampire, but hey, that's live.
You can't do a fuck about it anyway, so any whitewolfy brooding is a waste of time.
Just act like a grown-up person and accept the inevitable.
Then find a way of feeding that is actually justifiable to yourself (if you can't, you probably should have spent Edge on that infection test to just die instead of bothering anyone with any emo crap) and do something about the humanis goons trying to stake you.

That's SR vampirism in a nutshell.
It's not an emotional issue anymore, this time it's political.
Isath
I guess you are missing the fact, that a campaigns setting defines what all that stuff is about. As a ST I would make the Vampire feel miserable from time to time and if hes whining about it, he's welcome. Personal play is important to some and pretending that roling the dice alone creates action often just does not suffice.

In a campaign I ran, I had hacker, riggers, shamans and god knows who, whining from time to time. That is what some people do when they feel miserable, not only melodramatic emo teens - it is quite human, y'know. While I can understand that especially with vampires this can be quite a cliche, not all of them are bad. Actually SR offer much rum for clichees and I guess many charcters have such. It is all a question of not overdoing it, an overdose is never healthy, that's why it's called an overdose. The emotionless hardcore macho (vampire or not) is also an cliche by the way, and by no means favorable. wink.gif

It is as always a matter of balance.
Wanderer
QUOTE (Isath @ Aug 13 2008, 01:58 AM) *
I guess you are missing the fact, that a campaigns setting defines what all that stuff is about. As a ST I would make the Vampire feel miserable from time to time and if hes whining about it, he's welcome. Personal play is important to some and pretending that roling the dice alone creates action often just does not suffice.

In a campaign I ran, I had hacker, riggers, shamans and god knows who, whining from time to time. That is what some people do when they feel miserable, not only melodramatic emo teens - it is quite human, y'know. While I can understand that especially with vampires this can be quite a cliche, not all of them are bad. Actually SR offer much rum for clichees and I guess many charcters have such. It is all a question of not overdoing it, an overdose is never healthy, that's why it's called an overdose. The emotionless hardcore macho (vampire or not) is also an cliche by the way, and by no means favorable. wink.gif

It is as always a matter of balance.


Also very true, except for the bit that being callous, ruthless, or amoral in no way or shape requires being emotionless. That's a cliche, too, and one I find most tiresome. Lack of empathy/compassion in no way makes lack of anger, joy, lust, greed, mirth, jealousy, satisfacton, pride, friendship, or love necessary, albeit it may nor may not be related to a dimished capacity for fear, anxiety, and sorrow. Lack of remorse /= lack of emotion. The two conditions may coexist, but it quite easy to picture (and RP) situations where the former may exist to a lesser or greater degree, but not the latter.
Rasumichin
QUOTE (Isath @ Aug 13 2008, 12:58 AM) *
I guess you are missing the fact, that a campaigns setting defines what all that stuff is about.


I'm afraid you're guessing wrong.

QUOTE
As a ST I would make the Vampire feel miserable from time to time and if hes whining about it, he's welcome. Personal play is important to some and pretending that roling the dice alone creates action often just does not suffice.


Please, don't turn this into a roleplay vs rollplay argument.
This dichotomy never existed anyway.

BTW, it is of course up to the individual players how to portray their characters.
I was just musing about some personal approaches to the topic.

As a GM, i would, unlike you apparently(correct me if i'm mistaken here), never dictate how a PC feels (unless he has, for example, chosen to take a specific flaw which involves giving up some control over his character).
This would be infringement on the player's narrative rights, as the interior of his PC is his own domain.



QUOTE
In a campaign I ran, I had hacker, riggers, shamans and god knows who, whining from time to time. That is what some people do when they feel miserable, not only melodramatic emo teens - it is quite human, y'know. While I can understand that especially with vampires this can be quite a cliche, not all of them are bad. Actually SR offer much rum for clichees and I guess many charcters have such. It is all a question of not overdoing it, an overdose is never healthy, that's why it's called an overdose. The emotionless hardcore macho (vampire or not) is also an cliche by the way, and by no means favorable. wink.gif

It is as always a matter of balance.


I never claimed that macho was favorable.
Nor that characters should be emotionless.
Honestly, i don't quite understand how you are reading all that into my post.


It's just...i'm fed-up with the particular cliché of self-pitying vampires, for aesthetic reasons mainly (almost as fed up as with the responses it creates as soon as certain people hear the words "vampire PC").

I prefer fresh and energetic approaches towards old concepts.
This, of course, involves playing on established clichés, tropes and styles, as they are powerful triggers for any recipient's imagination.
But i want something of my own in those, a personal twist on the cultural archetypes we enjoy to encounter in our games.
hyzmarca
Consider a vampire who adheres to a rigid code of cinema morality. From this ethical standpoint, there are two types of people in the world, Redshirts and everybody else. The vast majority of humans fall into the category of Redshirt. They are ancillary to the story, existing for no other purpose than to be killed, and thus it is alright to kill them. Only people who actually matter to the plot are protected by the moral imperative to avoid killing.

Such a character might drag his mortal enemy to the hospital for lifesaving emergency surgery after having just savaged a dozen mooks into varying states of death because if he kills his enemy he'll be just like his enemy. The lives of the mooks, of course, are meaningless.

Feeding wouldn't be much of a problem, either, though he should research his victims to avoid killing supporting characters.

VagabondStar
Whatever the case may be with the mechanics of becoming a vampire... from a roleplaying point of view it can't be so simple - otherwise there would be tons of vampiric entities running around, both in the street and higher up.

In spite of the drawbacks (essence loss, no sunlight) the benefits are incredible. From a genetech point of view, immortality is closest reflected in Leonization, a process that costs over a million Nuyen - and only brings you back to a certain state where you continue to age normally from there.

Not sure where I am going with all this - but it seems that it should either cost more money - or be expensive in a way that is not so easy to pay.
Not of this World
My way is simple. If a PC becomes a Vampire or any other form of HMHVV then they immediately hand their character sheet over to me, the GM and it becomes a NPC.

Reason being is that vampirism is like an awakened form of rabies. It radically alters your personality beyond just how the character portrays them. As a GM I've returned these characters sometimes as more twisted versions of their shadowrunning selves. But then I'm fully against the idea of a full team of vampires with cyber to the hilt running around Seattle care free in their Thunderbird, other groups like to play that way.
hermit
QUOTE
I guess you are missing the fact, that a campaigns setting defines what all that stuff is about. As a ST I would make the Vampire feel miserable from time to time and if hes whining about it, he's welcome. Personal play is important to some and pretending that roling the dice alone creates action often just does not suffice.

This about sums up why I dislike storyteller approaches to gaming. Too often, the player is merely acting out a script written by the ST. If that's your cup of tea, switch to writing fan fiction and stop annoying the hell out of gamers in your group. The GM portrays the world in all it's aspects, from weather to whether the stotre clerk likes your character, even down to the character's vegetatives inc ase of injury. But whatever is going on inside the character's bhead is the player's domain, and ONLY the player's. It's a No-Go Zone for the GM, period.

As for balance, I'd rather make the world come crashing down on any vampiric PC. As I said; servitude to the creator (you want oWoD? You can have it, punk), +14 Nototriety and/or Hung Out To Dry, and I'd make him make rolls to feed and availability of blood, making sure he wastes edge on these rolls he won't have on the run (and, yes, be an inconvenience to the party as a whole). Bring the whole melange of prejudices to bear on the character. CorpSec who find their people sucked dry will not just retaliate, they will call in Firewatch and tag ALL PCs as vampires (+3 Notoriety ebcause of Bad Rep, have fun buying that off guys, in case you survive a mercilessly played team of firewatch elite operatives) - in SR4, it's inevitable your team leaves some traces, usually, so it WILL filter down into your rep score in ShadowSea or ruin your guanxi network, even if you evade Firewatch (and possibly gain an enemy there too).

If the vampy player ignores those subtle hints, and the other PCs put up with it, then - as a GM, I have the liberty of obliterating any PC, and in that case, I'd propably take it. Whether taken down by quebecois bounty hunters, mad scientists seeking to destill ambrosia from vampire bones, or by good old-fashioned vampire hunters, I'd decide on the spot and in a manner fitting the campaign setting. That is, if the other players wouldn't take care of that problem for me.

As mentioned in another thread, fair warning would be given once, but a player who insists will end up with his character dead, and likely kill the other PCs too. Fair warning would be given to everyone, of course. As always, YMMV.
Isath
QUOTE
except for the bit that being callous, ruthless, or amoral in no way or shape requires being emotionless.


Very true, I by no means oppose here.

QUOTE (Rasumichin @ Aug 13 2008, 02:56 AM) *
Please, don't turn this into a roleplay vs rollplay argument.
This dichotomy never existed anyway.


Well I guess I simply projected some of your other rantings against storydriven playstyles into this.



QUOTE
As a GM, i would, unlike you apparently(correct me if i'm mistaken here), never dictate how a PC feels (unless he has, for example, chosen to take a specific flaw which involves giving up some control over his character).
This would be infringement on the player's narrative rights, as the interior of his PC is his own domain.


So, I will correct you, as I do not dictate how a character feels, yet I am quite adept at influencing how the player himself makes the character feel. Also the emotional state of a character will change due to a lot of circumstances. Simply put I tend to give, stimuli and suggestions, and have them make out of it what they feel is right. Works out perfectly.

QUOTE
I never claimed that macho was favorable.
Nor that characters should be emotionless.
Honestly, i don't quite understand how you are reading all that into my post.


I simply got the impression, that you prefer that style, by the way you filled your nut-shell. You seemed to be ruling out, that feeling horrible, might be nothing that is easily put aside. You seemed disturbed by tragic. A liitle tragic is something that can be worthwhile (it should however, not be overdone - like with everything else). Without the so called "white wolfy brooding" we'd be missing all the fun when other character tell them, what you filled your nut-shell with (forgoing the possibility to play it).

However, maybe I just got you wrong, which is easy enough, in a board or mail conversation.


QUOTE
It's just...i'm fed-up with the particular cliché of self-pitying vampires, for aesthetic reasons mainly (almost as fed up as with the responses it creates as soon as certain people hear the words "vampire PC").


Same with me but when everyone else can engage in selfpitty, vampires should be allowed so as well. Personally I have a dislike for vampire "kiddies" myself and I spent quite some time with vampire. I always prefered the callous, intrigue approach, but here is some space for all of them. Also there is a huge difference between, a vampire "kid" calling his character Blade, Shadowslayer or "I am oh, so french" artificially brooding over how cruel it is to be UBER and a not so superficial approach to all that, including the brooding (stop rhyming!). As a side not, it can be quite cruel to have superpowers, and I always like to shed a little light on the downsides and shadows of things that appear to be "super".

QUOTE
I prefer fresh and energetic approaches towards old concepts.
This, of course, involves playing on established clichés, tropes and styles, as they are powerful triggers for any recipient's imagination.
But i want something of my own in those, a personal twist on the cultural archetypes we enjoy to encounter in our games.


I guess we are getting somewhere here, as I like the same actually. Maybe your approach sounded a bit too intolerant.

Cang
The key is to have a good solid background and explanation for the character. I pretty much let my players play anything as long as it is well thought out and has a solid base (to a certain extent). I mean if my character wants to play and ugly elf or a very good looking orc, so be it as long as he has a good story with it and plays his character. There is nothing worse then a player who makes a PC that has a really brooding or rash personallity but only plays it when it wont hurt him. Such as a player that wants to play a crazy combat monster with no fear and cant stop till someone dead but out of character they know doing so might kill them so they play it down or (like a game i was playing in) a magic item addicted player passing up a very strong and useful item because he knew out of character it had some sort of taint on it. A player can be anything under the sun just like in real life, as long as his sticks to his guns and plays it to their characters grave. (Unless the character starts having a personality change, of course.) cyber.gif
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