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Splitting dice pools is giving me a splitting headache.

I have done some searches on the subject. And can't find any kind of definitive answer in the forums or in the errata.

SR page 141 "Split the pool before applying modifiers."

SR page 109 under Specialization "Specializations add 2 dice to any tests made for that skill when the specialization is applicable to the test."

SR page 109 "The unmodified skill rating assigned at character creation or purchased during game play is considered to be the character’s base skill rating. Some abilities and implants (as noted) may increase this rating, creating a modified skill rating. A modified skill cannot exceed the base skill rating x 1.5 (making 9 the maximum possible rating, or 10 with the Aptitude quality). Specializations, spells, and other implants may provide bonus dice to a skill, but do not change the base skill rating. These extra dice are listed in parentheses after the base skill, as in Spellcasting 4 (+2)."

When are Specializations, spells, and other implants added in? Are they condsidered modifiers or are they considered part of the base dice pool?

And what about other things? For instance, if a technomancer has his machine Sprite running Diagnose on his smart Predator IV. Are those extra dice considered "skill modifiers" or "bonus skill dice"?

I do like SR over D&D 3.5. But, one think I do have to give D&D cudos for is the (mostly) clearly defined Bonus rules and listing exactly (mostly) what stacks and what doesnt.
A dice pool is the total number of dice to roll for a given activity. So Agility + Firearms + Smartlink, + AR bonus + Specialization, etc. = Your dice pool for shooting.

If you then need to fire at two people, you apply the modifier for multiple targets, second shots, etc then split the pool before rolling dice.
Smartlink (not useable with two weapons), AR Bonus, Specialization are allready dice pool modificators.
Only the pool out of attribute and skill is your dicepool at the beginning.

Note that every single item, ki power or edge gives either a dicepool modificator or improves the rating of your skill or attribute. "Improved Ability" and "Reflex recorder" gives you a higher rating at the skill, while the Synthacardium gives you bonus dices, so it is a dice pool modificator.
Most things give you bonus dices, but some also improves your skill rating. At the attributes, the items will improve your attribute rating at the most time.

If you don't want to get confused every time, just note the dice pool modificators like (+2) and the improved skill rating like (5). So will get something like this:

Pistols (Semiautomatics) 5 (7) (+2)
You have got the skill Pistols at 5, you also have got the Ki Power "Improved Ability (Pistols) 2", so you get +2 at your skill rating (noted as (7)) and finaly you get with your Specialization +2 dices when you fire automatics (noted as the (+2)).

Now you have got two semiautomatic pistols and an agility of 5. Your 2 targets are at medium range, it is light smoke in the area and you are in cover.

First of all, you get your dicepool, which is 12. Agility 5 + the improved pistols skill with 7. So you get a split dice pool with 6 dices each. Now we need to add up the modificators, which will be +2 for your specialization and -4 for the first target and -7 for the second one (recoil for the first shot at the first target and second target modificator), added up, you have got 4 dices for the first target and 1 dice for the second one. At your second simple action, you will lose additional 2 dices each for the recoil of the first simple action.

I hope this will solve your problem.

I do like Coldan notation-wise. Any dice pool is going to be Attribute (Modified attribute) + Skill (Modified skill) + Modifiers. Everything before modifiers is your base dice pool.

Some things add specifically to an attribute (like augmented muscles) or a skill (Like the improved ability power). Basically anything that your modified attribute or skill caps apply to. These add to your base dice pool. Other things, like specializations, AR bonues, Vision penalties, etc. all are modifiers. Anything that doesn't ally towards your cap.

So by my take, specialization applies after you split the dice pool, because it doesn't count toward your modified skill cap. So two-gun away!
I missed a modificator at the second shot, so you also have got the edge Ambidexterity, just to negate the Offhand modificator.
Given how I am gotten table happy lately.

Might have to go through all the books and come up with a table for each particular dice adder and subtractor, making a chart on which are 'Dice Pool Additions' and which are 'Modifiers'
Your base Dice Pool is Attribute + Skill, Attribute + Attribute, or Attribute, depending on what you are doing (ignoring the retarded Matrix rules for now). Everything else that increases or decreases the number of dice you roll is a Dice Pool Modifier, and in the case of two-weapon combat & similar, are applied after you split your base Dice Pool. It is not difficult - it is actually quite simple to figure out.

Unless something directly increases an Attribute or Skill rating, it is a modifier.
as we had just the same discussion over here at a german forum: are you sure about the fact of adding in the specialization dice after the splitting?

what would be rgeat, if anyone of the devs might give a word about that.

concerning two-weapon-fighting this would be good, but my main concern is, that adding the dice after splitting make such a character better than a guy who bought two more levels of skill (at a much higher kost, be it BPs or karma).

if anyone could give a valid reason (rules, where to look up) for the "after"-theory, i would be quite glad.
The Jopp
You really dont feel the impact until you have tried playing a gun-bunny changeling with X6 Shiva arms...

Agility 6 / Pistols 7 / Specialization +2 / Reflex Recorder (Pistols)

Total Pool of 16D6

Say that we are not X3 Ambidextrous then we have a total -6D6 due to off-hand modifier (IF they stack per hand...)

So 10D6

That's 1,6 dice per hand.

Pistols at rating 7 is world class and agility 6 is what high end athletes have - and they cannot hit the broadside of a barn from the inside with six pistols...

On the other hand.

With ambidexterity they have 2,6 per hand (roughly +100%) but still suck.

If we then use the wording that specialization is not a modifier of the skill but the USE then we have the following:

7+6+1= 14D6 split by 6 is 2,3 D6 +2

So now we have 4,3D6 per hand and are actually playable.

Lets say we have the average runner then? Physical attribute 4 and skill 4:

8D6 becomes 1,3D6 per gun and specialization adds +2 to 3,3 D6.

Higher skill would only give fractions but splitting dicepool would be more useful as you can actually throw SOME dice.

The most usable character would then have 3+3 attribute/skill and specialization giving them a straight 3D6 per pistol.

Question: Would aiming count for each gun? Gaining +1D6 on six dicerolls aint half bad in that case.
i know it would help those guys firing simultaneously with more than one weapon. the root of our discussion in Good Ol' Germany was the idea of a surgeling with 4 arms (a nartaki from RC) which ended up ... awful with his four pistols/SMGs.

but: hollywood aside: how are the chances of hitting in RL, if you fire two weapons at the same time? i haven't tried that stunt but would guess they're mediocre at best. and don't even think of targenting two different targets with the weapons, if you're not holding the muzzle of your guns to both of their heads ...

sure, two-weapon.fighting is kind of broken in SR, but that's a different ship.
The Jopp
QUOTE (SCARed @ Aug 22 2008, 11:51 AM) *
but: hollywood aside: how are the chances of hitting in RL, if you fire two weapons at the same time? i haven't tried that stunt but would guess they're mediocre at best. and don't even think of targenting two different targets with the weapons, if you're not holding the muzzle of your guns to both of their heads ...

Well, I would use the usual penalties for targetting more than one target and i would also say if they are not ambidextrous they will have a hell of a time hitting. Non ambidextrous people firing two guns would also be penalized by the -2 dice already so the difficulty is already factored in.

Ambidextrous people firing at one target shoudn't be that hardly affected as they are USED to handle multiple limbs and their brains are wired to handle it.

Trying to his six people at once with six guns should be impossible or at least require edge and lucky rolls.

Think about it. Someone with six limbs and average skill and attributes (3) and no specialization or ambidexterity would have a base dicepool of ZERO and cant even roll dice.

How feasible is that???

I have shot dual pistols several times. The first time I used a Colt 1911 (primary hand) and a Glock 9mm (off hand) while standing still. I fired as quickly as I could while still making an attempt at accuracy. The target was about a foot square and was just 10 meters away.

With one pistol (either of them) I could fire using two hands and hit the target with every shot. With dual pistols I hit the target twice, hitting high and low with the rest (11 shots with an extended clip on the 1911, and a full clip with the glock).

Thats a pretty severe difference, but I would place myself at a pistol skill of 1 with an agility of 3. To say I even had a 1d6 per shot would be unlikely, since I did not hit 1/3 of the time.

Now about a year later after a bit more training I tried akimbo pistols twice more. once while standing still and once while strafing (the picture above).

While Standing still with one pistol my accuracy was still 100% at 10M with a 1 square foot target. With dualies I had the same number of bullets (C9 9m w/ 11, and full glock) and hit 5 times. At that point I think I had about 1 die per shot equivalent, due to a pistol skill of 2 and agility of 3.

While running none of my shots hit the actual target (just hit the dirt mound around the target).

Now if with my meager skill I can generate successes, dont you think it possible that someone who is Ambidexterous and has spent several hundred hours training with akimbo pistols could hit with decent accuracy? Now just imagine someone who is world class (7 skill, specialized, ambidexterous, 6 agility), they should have little trouble tearing apart a target at short range even while both the shooter and target are moving.

My analysis: The 4th edition rules are too tough on dual pistol users.
While not actually contributing to the conversation in anyway...

Just wanted to say that you look to be such a happy little gunbunny in the first frame of the gif!!

QUOTE (raverbane @ Aug 22 2008, 02:16 PM) *
While not actually contributing to the conversation in anyway...

Just wanted to say that you look to be such a happy little gunbunny in the first frame of the gif!!


Yeah, after years of playing shadowrun and watching John Woo movies, it was a dream come true when I finally got a gun and found a free firing range that I could shoot at with friends.

I did not capture it on tape, but after the strafe my friend gave me a hold out pistol, which I tucked into my pocket and walked back to 50m. I then ran full speed at the target while drawing the pistol, then did a forward dive roll and came up into a crouch, planting the full clip of the hold out pistol into the target. I felt like a freakin rock star!
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