So there's been a lot of talk on Dumpshock about the varied races and options introduced in Runners Companion, and a number of people have felt as if the costs associated were too arbitrary or subjective. Often amorphous factors were "Rarity" or to others "cool factor" or sometimes just how overpowering something felt. I made mention of the idea of tooling up the races based on their pure attributes and abilities. Harder than I thought at first, because many things were associated with different races as powers, or native abilities or whatnot. Not to mention there is no system in place for choosing to have a racial maximum on a specific attribute go up or down significantly. That said, I present to you the Optional Rule: Building the Metavariants.

I've tried to be as objective as I can, weighing the importance and power level of each ability, power or whatever. If you disagree, feel free to say so. However, I'll be honest on one major point. If you disagree just because you don't like it, but offer no reasonable, logical explanation as to why, I'll ignore you completely and move on to the next person. I don't mind being proven wrong on things, nor do I mind changing the information presented herein, but I frankly won't listen or tolerate people whining because I didn't make the cost 0 for being uber.

That said, here comes the information. I'm going to try to reserve the first few replies on this topic so that I can present all the information without breaks. If you see that I haven't posted "That's it!", please refrain from responding yet. I appreciate it.



In an effort to build a more fantastical world, you can instead choose to base metatypes off of predetermined abilities, creating the varied metatypes in game with different costs, or even giving slight variations to existing types (Such as an Elf with Thermographic instead of Low-Light vision). Each race will have standard “abilities� represented by metagenic qualities. These qualities do not count toward the 35 point maximum positive and negative qualities selected during character generation, but instead count as regular items to be purchased with build points. Where appropriate, I have simply adopted abilities and their values from the books, and those are noted with page references to assist players and gamemasters with using them.

Realize that these rules make selecting a race potentially more time-consuming and complex, due to having to select what you want on your race. There are predefined races, with predefined abilities. A simple retooling of the existing core and variant races in Shadowrun to date, if you will. You will also note that a race may now be more expensive before, given the vast abilities it possesses. Others, by contrast, may be far less expensive, due to a lack of the “rarity� component, described below.

One component that the SR4 core rules include are a hit or bonus based on the relative rarity of a race in the Shadowrun universe. This rarity is more a subjective thing, and thus much harder to quantify. You will however find some rules below that will help you create or lessen that rare effect on a race.

First, the races available and their abilities, then I’ll get to the abilities themselves with either explanations or page references to those already in existence.

Basic Races


*Note: Any non-magical creature will start with a magic rating of 0, unless they buy an appropriate magical quality granting them their first point. Magical creatures start with a base 1 point which can be raised normally. They do not get the bonus magic point from magical qualities, as it’s already included in the cost of the creature.

Metavariants

The Metavariant races all begin with the same basic stats as the basic race they’re spawned from, though there can be some difference as to the actual abilities possessed by the metavariant in question.

Changed Characters

Drakes

Because of their unique abilities and traits, drakes can vary widely. As an option, you can alter the price of the drake based on the resultant emergence of the drake form. Not all forms are equal, so why should they have equal costs, after all? Constructive Criticism is requested for improvements here. You will note that Drakes are HORRIBLY expensive now, because of all the abilities their form grants them. I may cut these costs in half due to the bonuses only applying in the actual Drake form. Here is the breakdown of what every base Drake comes with:

Base Drake form
Cost 125 BP
Magical Creature, Dual Natured, Elemental Attack, Enhanced Senses (Hearing, Low-Light Vision, Smell, Thermographic Sense), Hardened Armor (4), Mystic Armor (4), Natural Weapon (Claws, Teeth)

The forms below include the above cost in their values.




The Infected

These poor sods have been infected with HMHVV and as a result have gained some benefits and problems. All abilities listed are in addition to any listed abilities for the base metatype. The Infected Quality for the type below does not count against the maximum positive or negative qualities for a character during character generation.



N = Natural minimum, maximum and augmented maximum attribute; the adjusted minimum is never less than 1
* = +1 IP; this is not cumulative with any other form of IP augmentation; only the highest number of IPs apply
** Magic rating of an infected character is either 1 or the original character’s natural rating, whichever is higher.
+ If a ghoul buys off the blind flaw with cybereyes, they must spend the karma to remove the flaw as well

Critter Characters

Sapient Critters

Some creatures are not of the normal stock humanoid variety. Below are the Sapient Critter stats and abilities. The Sapience power is free to all sapient critters.




Shifters

The shifters start as an animal and can assume a (meta)human form at will. They possess the Shift power, but unlike Drakes, their attributes are the same in both forms. Note, that I’ve corrected stats to match 6pt ranges here. The Eagle is now 3/8 Willpower, the cats are 3/8 Agility, and the Bear is 7/12 Body and Strength.


*Only applies in Critter Form

Otherworld Entities

Free Spirits

Spirits often go free and are able to manifest in our world. Given their wide range of abilities, let’s hope I was able to accurately justify the cost.


Less expensive than the book, but I know people will wonder why the high cost still. Here’s the objective breakdown.


And last but not least
Artificial Intelligence

New Qualities

With this version of racial generation, Metagenic qualities of all types are now available to any and all metatypes, including humas, as well as any manner of changed metahuman or critter, such as Changelings, Drakes, and Sapient Critters. This method of racial generation has introduced several new qualities.

New Positive Qualities

Adaptive Coloration
Cost: 15 BP
As the critter power, (RC, pg 85)

Armor
Cost: 10 BP per point of Ballistic or Impact rating
Your skin is tougher than usual, providing you a measure of protection against damage. For every 5 BP spent, you may allocate one point of Ballistic or Impact armor. If this quality is only available to you in one of your forms, halve the cost.

Astral Form
Cost: 5 BP
You have a completely astral form due to existing in Astral Space. Only spirits may take this quality.

Corrosive Secretions
Cost: 5 BP
As per the critter power, (RC, pg 85)

Dual Natured
Cost: 10 BP
The character is now a dual natured creature. Refer to SR4, PG 287 for details. This cost is reduced to 5 BP if you possess the Magical Creature quality

Electronic Creature
Cost: 80 BP
This quality, available only to AI characters, represents that they have no physical form. As such, they need no physical attributes, are immune to normal weapons, aging, biological pathogens and toxins, and do not require sleep in the traditional sense.

Elemental Attack
Cost: 15 BP, 10 BP for Drake characters
See SR pg 287 for description. This ability is almost exclusively seen on Drake characters, and manifests as a fire attack. Optionally, the GM may allow the character to choose the type of elemental attack at character creation. You must possess a Magic Attribute greater than 0 to use take and continue to use this ability. This quality requires the Magical Creature quality.

Enhanced Senses (Type)
Cost: 5 per sense
You are gifted with an extra or enhanced sense above the normal. This is identical to the critter power Enhanced Senses (SR4, pg 288). This quality may be taken multiple times, each time applying to a different sense.

Essence Drain
Cost: 10 BP
As the critter power. (SR4, pg 288). This quality requires the Magical Creature quality.

Fear
Cost: 10 BP
As the critter power (SR4, pg 288). This quality requires the Magical Creature quality.

Flight
Cost: 10 BP
Why run when you can fly. This quality allows you to fly without need of sustained magic or wings. You must be a spirit or Oriental Drake to possess this quality.

Hardened Armor
Cost: 15 BP/level (Max 4), 10 BP for Drake characters)
You have an especially tough hide, and have gained the same benefits as the Hardened Armor critter power (SR4, pg 288).

Immunity (Type)
Cost: 10 BP/type
For some reason, you are able to withstand certain things in their entirety. Examples include Pathogens, Fire, Age, and the like. Immunity to Normal Weapons, because of the power of the immunity, costs 40 BP. This quality requires the Magical Creature quality.

Improved Reach
Cost: 5 BP
Due to their large size, or possibly their longer limbs, the character has a reach advantage when interacting with anything, including melee combat. As such the character now has a +1 reach modifier.

Increased Reflexes
Cost: 10 BP
You are naturally faster than the average being, and as such gain an extra initiative pass. This is not cumulative with any other form of IP augmentations. This ability requires you to possess the Magical Creature quality.

Infection
Cost: 5 BP
You have the ability to pass on the virus you carry in your body. This quality can only be taken by Infected characters.

Magical Creature
Cost: 5 BP
Most awakened critters can tap into the ambient mana of the world, and you are no different. This grants the character a base Magic attribute of 1, which can be raised normally through build points in character generation, or karma during character advancement. Some natural abilities require a magic rating to function, and will require this ability as a prerequisite.

Magical Guard
Cost: 5 or 10 BP
As the power Magical Guard (SM, pg 101). For 5 BP, you can only affect yourself. For 10 BP, you can affect others as well. This quality requires the Magical Creature quality.

Materialization (Or Possession)
Cost: 10 BP
You are able to manifest and interact with the physical plane, or if you are of the Possession tradition, you can inhabit a vessel according to the Possession rules. Only a spirit may take this quality.

Matrix Affinity
Cost: 5 BP/level
For some reason, you have a stronger bond with the matrix. All your matrix tests are at +3 dice.

Metagenic Improvement (Attribute)
Cost: 10 BP/level or less
This is similar to the metagenic quality listed on pg 114 of Runners Companion. The cost has been lowered (to keep races basically the same cost as they were in the original sourcebooks) and it has now been made a quality that can be taken multiple times per attribute. Understandably, this can make a race very expensive, should you select this quality multiple times. The cost of this ability is further reduced to 5 BP/level if you only gain benefits in one form (such as a Drake character).

Mist Form
Cost: 15 BP
As the critter power (SR4, pg 289)

Mystic Armor
Cost: 15 BP/level (Max 4), 10 BP/Level for Drakes
Your astral form is especially durable, giving you the same benefit as the Mystic Armor critter power (SR4, pg 289). Because Drakes can only access this in one form, they get a reduced cost on it. This quality requires the Magical Creature quality.

Natural Weapon (Type)
Cost: 5 BP per type
You have been granted natural weapons through evolution. These could be claws, sharp teeth, a tail stinger, or other adaptations. Each time this quality is selected, determine the type of natural weapon you possess. If you choose claws, you may select this twice to make your claws retractable like a cat.

Rare
Cost: 10 BP
You are of a rare or unknown species, and as such, people don’t really know what to expect from you. It may be easier to fool those who are unaware of your abilities. At GM discretion, this could provide a bonus to intimidation or con checks when trying to convince someone of your capabilities.

Regeneration
Cost: 40 BP
Per the critter power (SR4, pg 290)

Shift (Form)
Cost: Varies
You can assume another form from your natural one. Examples of this are a drake character being able to assume their dracoform, or a wolf shapeshifter being able to assume a metahuman form. The cost will vary based on the type of shift you are performing. A character may only have this quality once. This quality requires the Magical Creature quality.
Shift (Human): 20 BP You can assume a Human form. This cost is included in the cost of a shapeshifter metatype.
Shift (Drake): See Drakes table for cost. This power is included in the cost of the Drake quality.
Shift (Metahuman/Metavariant): Racial BP cost + 10 BP. This allows you to assume the form of another type of metahuman, instead of just plain human. If you do not already possess them, you gain the abilities of the metahuman or metavariant in question. Metagentic Improvements and Metagenic deficiencies are not cumulative, and you simply select the highest of the values available with the following exception. If the base and shifted forms of the being have conflicting Improvements and Deficiencies, add them together and take the new value as an Improvement or Deficiency, depending on the final result.

Example: Arthur wishes to make a Fox Shapeshifter that shifts into a Dwarf instead of a human. He pays the appropriate build point costs, and figures out his base stats. The Dwarf has an improvement to Body and Willpower, and two to Strength but suffers a penalty on Reaction. The fox shifter takes a hit on Body and two on Strength, but gains benefits in Agility, Reaction and Intuition. Because the hit and benefit from Body, Strength and Reaction balance out, they are all reset to the human standard of 1/6(9). The final stats still retain the Metagenic Improvements to Agility, Reaction, Intuition and Willpower.

Venom
Cost: 5 BP
As the critter power Venom (SR4, pg 290). This requires a method of injecting the venom, either through fangs or a stinger.

Wings
Cost: 5 or 10 BP
The character possesses wings sprouting from the back near the shoulder blades. They can be leathery like a bat, feathered like a bird, or any other reasonable description. For 5 points, these wings are barely functional, and allow a character the ability to glide for short distances. For 10 points, the wings are fully functional and will allow you flight for some time. To use this flight ability, a character must invest in the Flight skill (RC, Pg 88)


New Negative Qualities

Common
Bonus: 10 BP
You are part of an exceptionally common race or variation for your metatype, and as such, everyone knows precisely what you are and what your capabilities are. While this trait is almost exclusive to Humans, it can also appear on other races, based on their location and the game setting. For example, with GM approval, this quality could be taken on an Oni in Japan, or a Fomori in the British Isles.

Dietary Requirement
Bonus: 5BP
The opposite of Ogre Stomach, this quality restricts what you can ingest to a single substance. Examples include metahuman flesh, blood or similar types of limitations.

Essence Loss
Bonus: 10 BP
As the critter weakness (SR4, pg 291). This ability only grants a 5 BP bonus for a Nosferatu character.

Induced Dormancy (Cause)
Bonus: 20 BP per cause
As per the critter weakness, (RC, pg 85)

Inferior Reach
Bonus: 5 or 10 BP
Due to your smaller stature or shorter limbs, you have a shorter reach than most other people. If this applies in all your forms (or if you only have 1 form), then this is a 10 BP quality. If this only applies in one of your forms (such as a fox shifter) then it is a 5 BP quality.

Metagenic Deficiency (Attribute)
Bonus: 10 BP/level
This is the inverse to Metagenic Improvement. For whatever reason, the character is predisposed to having a weaker attribute than normal. This may be taken multiple times per attribute, and each time it reduces the maximum and minimum values of an attribute by 1, to a minimum of 1. This penalty is reduce to 5 BP per level if you only suffer the penalty in one form.

No arms/Front Legs
Bonus: 20 BP, 15 BP for a Feathered Drake character
For whatever reason, you lack arms or front legs. As a result, you cannot perform any activity that would require the manual dexterity of hands. Your body does not possess the appropriate nerve clusters, brain functions or muscle groups to make an arm work, and as such, this cannot be counteracted with the simple attachment of a cyber arm or cybertorso. If a character wishes to undergo extensive cybersurgery to resolve this, they must buy off this flaw with karma equal to twice its build point cost as well as spending an additional 1 point of essence if they are just getting cyberarms, or 0.5 essence if they are also replacing their torso. Due to the augmentation limitations of Drake characters, the Feathered Drake is unable to buy off this flaw regardless, but only gets a bonus of 15 BP due to it only restricting one form.

Reduced Sense (Type)
Bonus: 5 or 10 BP
One of your senses is damaged or underdeveloped. For 5 BP, your senses are just dampened, causing a -2 die penalty when using that sense for Perception Tests or any other test requiring that sense. For 10 BP, the sense fails you completely, such as being blind or deaf. Unless stated otherwise, this cannot be corrected through augmentation or corrective surgery.

I'd suggest a modifier for Dwarf and Troll metatypes to represent their need for custom-sized equipment (probably only a -5) and I'd ceratilny consider adjusting the costs to note movement rates (at least for the Troll).

There, it's all done. Tear it apart.

All non-Human Metatypes & Metavariants need their cost reduced by 10 (Edge).

Drakes need their cost reduced significantly - you are failing to take into account their bonuses only apply while in Dracoform.

Dwarves are priced at 5 points above my previous calculations - I have not bothered to check why - it may be because I intend to change many qualities as well.

Dual-Natured is not a Positive Quality.

Common has no negative effect on mechanical game balance. It should never be included in pricing. The same goes for Rare. If a species is particularly common or rare, say so in the fluff description, and leave it there.

Months ago, I statted out the cost for Vampires to 100 Build Points. I cannot recall my exact listing, but it did not include their augmentation limitations or starting with 5 Essence. I have made Vampires at 100 Build Points, and it is fairly balanced.

Nosferatu, while possibly under-costed for what they get at 150 Build Points, are still balanced at that level. Once you start reaching values this high, balance becomes difficult, and the balanced value is often less than the total value of their abilities, due to the extreme restrictions it places on other aspects of character generation. At this level, you also begin to run the risk of an option being simply to powerful, regardless of it's cost. I do not believe any of the current options reach that point, however.

Beyond that, I did not really bother to look over anything. I may comment more later.

Dual natured gets you the ability to interact with spirits at will, the ability to see into the astral, and the ability to attack spirits without needing special weapons, even when they're not manifested. The only downside is you being constantly active in the astral. How is this not a positive quality? I don't mind redressing the quality, but I'm gonna need more information than just "dual nature is not a positive quality" with no qualifiers.

I did miss the metagenic deficiency (edge) on 3 of the sapient critters didn't have it. Correcting that now.

Drakes got reduced costs on a lot of things. Originally it came in at something silly like almost 300bp, till I started cutting costs in half.

I introduced common and rare simply so some could add it in to help adjust costs a little. I'm still working on coming up with definitive impacts on the game if anything. Should be able to figure it out. Frankly, ran out of time putting everything else together.

As for Nosferatu being undercosted, possibly. But I'm working with raw values, and not the "feel" of a character. The "feel" is subjective, and not the point of this exercise.

For a shadowrunner, that is one massive downside.

You are in constant danger of infection with astral diseases, such as mana-active aura deficiency syndrome (which can be quite lethal for dual critters).

Any projecting mage who hovers some meters overhead can kill you with a couple of manabolts and if you're not awakened, you can't do anything about it.
It's hard to outmaneuver anybody who's projecting when you're rerstricted to physical movement, right?
Likewise, a spirit doesn't have to manifest first to use its powers against you (yeah, you could attack the soirit- if it would be so kind to get into kicking distance).

If you encounter a ward, you absolutely can't get through it unless you manage to fight your way in, thereby allerting the person who set up the ward.
This makes you a chronic and major liability in most high-security installations.

That is the downside. Because of that, I would never pay points for the quality. I would only ever take it as a negative quality if it was in the range of-20 Build Points, and even then, only if it fit the character concept. All for the reasons Rasumichin has stated above.

I never mentioned anything about the "feel" of a character. What I said is balanced costs at that high of a level become more than just "What do you gain?", you then need to begin looking at "What do you loose?". When you are paying 100+ for something, you are loosing a lot of versatility in what you could have in other areas, such as skills. Once again, at that high of costs, you can no longer simply add up the Positive & Negative aspects and hope for a balanced final cost.

Fair enough. So how do we want to handle it? Make it a negative? If so, how much? Same value, just as a bonus instead? If so, that puts everything in the list that's dual natured 10 points less, which would make some free (like the Loup-Garou).

Unless I should be changing other values. C'mon guys, if you're gonna beat something down, give a solution.

EDIT: Thanks for the info Mu. You replied while I was still typing. (Yeah, I'm slow)

The problem is that we don't have a choice but to do raw costs. If we start trying to analyze what you miss out on or whatever, you get into subjective values, which caused the whole stink in the first place.

EDITEDIT: Regarding the DN cost, at -20 BP that'll put the Loup Garou at -15 BP overall, and cust the cost on everything else with DN by 25-30 BP. It's a hell of a change that results in many of the options being free. That's not something that seems right in this. I've taken all stats exactly as they were in the books, and sometimes gave stats to powers and such that didn't have them.

Let's look there. Maybe I've created values that are out of whack with the level of the ability. Any insight on that front?

If you're looking to try and provide a point based method to keep things balanced. I have to agree rarity and commonality should not be part of it. Only as a GM option, because then the GM could give a discount if he's going to enforce quality of life issues and such things as making life as a shadowrunner difficult for a sasquatch (they gotta stand out like a sore thumb in a crowd).

The other bit, is I'd price Metagenic deficiency as only a 5point flaw. Because it doesn't cost extra BP/karma to raise a penalized stat. Stated another way it doesn't cost 12BP/raise to raise a penalized stat, or 4x rating in karma in that stat line. If it did then I'd say it's worth the 10point bonus, but without it, it's just an easy to way to adjust your stat bar to your liking w/o spending points on an exceptional attribute advantage. If there was something in the rules that it costs an extra 2BP per point deficiency, or increased karma multiplier by +1 per point deficiency then it'd be less of a problem. EG: troll w/ max cha4, needs to spend 14BP per point CHA or rating x5 karma.

Getting to an 'average' rating of 3 is easy for anybody. And people looking for stat lines they don't want (EG: they have no intention of being the face) could easily ditch 2 points of CHA max to offset. This discourages playing w/ stat max lines just to fit your char. People only raise stats because they intend to break the 6 point max, similarly they only lower them because they don't care about that stat. Shadowrun tends to encourage exceptional attributes for extremely large dicepools while letting someone else do the heavy lifting in a different attribute line making one perk worth more than the other disadvantage.

Strength similarly may not be worth 10points rank. All stats are supposed to be created equal... but they're not really.

One item I don't see listed is the effects of lifespan. I guess that doesn't commonly come into games. But lets face it a 25yo orc in its prime only has 10-20 years left. I guess if the game included an age mod it'd make more of a difference... at what age does an orc need a cane to get around?! Orcs are pretty short, trolls are close enough to human span as to not matter much, and elves and dwarves both have some really long lifespans.

Nice job breaking all that out. Some of the fairest prices I've seen so far. But small point. Humans have one metagenic enhancement... why is their edge +1 not worth 10BP . I guess all races need to start out with the first 10points free.

Reduced Attribute Maximums, with the current rules for character creation & advancement, really is worth only 5 points. The problem with this, however, is it makes some metatypes - particularly the Troll, virtually unplayable due to their now insane Build Point cost. On the other hand, it does fix issues such as the Loup Garou cost.

Regarding the Loup Garou & other similar options - due to their weaknesses, I see no problem with making them a "free" option, but I do fully agree that they should not grant bonus Build Points. This opinion may change once I have had a chance to think about it more, but I doubt it.

@Falconer, I have already commented on the Humans +1 Edge, in my initial posting in this thread. Humans remain free to play - all non-human Metatypes & Variants will then cost 10 Build Points less than their calculated value.

Regarding the cost of excessively expensive character options, notably some of the Infected & Shapeshifters, I propose a fixed system to account for their diminishing abilities in other areas due to their high cost:
Calculate the total value of their Attributes & Abilities as normal. At 50 Build Points, and every 25 Build Points therafter, reduce the total Build Point cost by 5. Example: An option calculated out to 100 Build Points will cost 85 to play. An option calculated at 140 will cost 120 to play. This may or may not be a balanced or appropriate fix. Once I have a chance to test the values, I will confirm it as effective, or present a new option.



Overall, I am currently working on a set of House Rules that, among numerous other things, attempts to balance these cost issues. Once I am finished with it, I will post it on this forum for criticism/public use. If I remember, I will link to it in this thread.

Sounds like halving the cost of Metagenic Deficiency is a good idea. When I'm not doing this on my Blackberry, I'll update the values above.

That will raise some racial costs a lot. I may post the tallies before making corrections.

Humans got back to 0 because of the Common quality that I either need to define mechanically or remove them altogether. I'm leaving them up there as is until I can figure it out.

Thank you for the constructive replies so far.

So wear a FAB suit and/or keep all your shots up to date. Mind you, this means looking further afield for your stret doc, but it isn't beyond the pale of inpracticality.



If he's projecting, shoot his meat body. Heck, unless he's projecting and using fiber optics, you can shoot the mage's spirit so long as it isn't a smartgun. Line of sight applies after all.



You can still just shoot it, assuming you have Incendiery or Stick n' Shock for Water, Ex-Ex or HESH for Earth, Liquid Nitrogen or Dry Ice for Fire, Gel for Air, or just plain old copper jacked lead for Guidance, Task, Guardian or Man.



Well, with the right equipment, though, you could just climb over the ward (particularly if it was poorly set up.

Highly impractical, to say the least.

If he's projecting, his meat body probably is not closer than a mile, and quite possibly thousands of miles away. You cannot affect astral forms with a firearm - your only way of affecting a projecting magician, unless you are also a mage, is to get within range of punching him - considering projecting magicians can fly & move at 5km per combat turn, not going to happen.

Only if it manifests - which is the whole point of this - it does not need to.

Wards enclose an area. They are not simply a wall. Moving around a warded area is rarely a problem. Moving into a warded area, such as the vault or control room you need access to, you cannot do without bringing down or pushing through the ward - which then alerts security - if you can even get through to begin with.


Put simply, none of your points have any relevance, and many are flat-out wrong.

You are aware of the fact that a projecting mage doesn't have to stay within LOS?
His meatbody could as well be in friggin' Japan.




Where do you get that line of sight crap?
We are not talking spellcasting or counterspelling here.
We are talking astral projection.


And how do you shoot the mage's "spirit"?
We are not talking about a manifesting spirit here, we are talking about something existing entirely on the astral plane.

Is this some kind of trolling attempt or have you decided to simply not read half of the magic chapter in the BBB?




This is getting tiresome.
The spirit has not manifested.
That was the entire point of my remark.
It exists only on the astral plane, bullets exist only on the physical plane, and yes, this means you can't shoot it.
Duh.





I would recommend to read the BBB once more, but...oh, just forget it.

A dual natured creature *could* physically assault the astral form with unarmed combat.

Of course, any mage with even a tenth of a brain won't be within melee range when they have spells.

Okay, before making changes above, I'm putting the results of the suggested changes forward.

Changes:
Metagenic Deficiency is now 5 BP bonus per level instead of 10.
Dual Natured is a 5 BP Negative Quality (leaving it low bonus because it still offers a lot of bonuses as well)
Still leaving "Common" in as a Negative quality until I can find a different way to zero out Humans.
Halved ability costs on drakes where I hadn't taken into account the "only available half the time" component

With these changes nearly every race increased in cost (Except Drakes, strangely), that moves the following variant options to the new BP Values below. If everyone seems to like the newer values, I'll update all the tables above with it.

Base Races:
Orks move from 35 to 45 BP
Dwarves move from 55 to 60 BP
Trolls move from 50 to 75 BP

Metavariants:
All dwarf metavariants increase by 5 bp
Hobgoblin and Oni increases from 30 to 35 BP
Ogre increases from 40 to 45 BP
Satyr increases from 45 to 50 BP
Cyclops increases from 40 to 65 BP
Giant increases from 50 to 75 BP
Minotaur increases from 55 to 80 BP
Fomori increases from 75 to 100 BP

Drakes:
All costs reduced by total of 15 each due to changing Dual Natured value and quality type
Recalculated Feathered drake with half values on everything that I'd forgotten to halve before, reducing it a bit further to 125 BP total
Recalculated Common Drake (due to mistake in my math apparently) and removed Common negative quality, final tally at 165 BP (155 with quality)

Infected:
Using the new values, Loup-Garou still tallies at 5 BP, and that's including my silly "Rare" quality. Need to address this.
Bandersnatch value moves from 20 to 25 BP
Fomóraig increases from 35 to 55 BP
Ghoul increases from 90 to 125 BP -- Huge jump. Could toss in the Common quality to bring it down 10 points.
Goblin increases from 105 to 125 BP
Wendigo increases from 110 to 115 BP
Dzoo-noo-qua increases from 110 to 125
Vampire decreases from 165 to 145 BP (Hooray for bad math, could be 150 if we treat wood as uncommon)
Nosferatu increases from 220 to 225 BP (miscalc the first time)

Sapient Critters:
Centaur increased from 10 to 25 BP
Pixie increases from 35 to 65 BP
Naga increase from 55 to 65 BP
Sasquatch decreased from 95 to 80 BP

Shifters:
Fox decreased from 60 to 55 BP
Wolf decreased from 60 to 40 BP
Bear increases from 80 to 95 BP (forgot to give bear the Shift (Human) ability)
Seal decreases from 80 to 65 BP
Eagle decreases from 85 to 70

Spirit cost decreased from 195 to 185


Any further insight before I update the values?

I have already told you how to deal with this - Humans have a cost of 0, and all non-Humans have a 10-point discount to their calculated costs. Quite simple, really.


As I stated above, this solves some of the problems, but creates it's own - notably the now high values for the core metatypes - most notably Trolls.


Should be at minimum a 10-point Negative Quality. The downsides far outweigh the benefits - said benefits are limited to Astral Perception & being able to punch astral forms, if you ever get in range.

Vampire & Nosferatu are still to heavily priced. I am beginning to think the Loup Garou might be a viable candidate for bonus Build Points, although I am still hesitant about this. I have only skimmed the cost on the rest of the "Quality" races so far.

Free Spirits might be playable at 185 Build Points, but I have a feeling they will need to drop at least another 10 points, somehow.

Vampire and Nosferatu are prices based on the total sum of their abilities. Overpriced they may be, but that's how their stuff adds up. If you want them less, then challenge the point values for what they possess in powers. Telling me that they seem overpriced is worthless, because this is an objective exercise, not a subjective one. I'm surprised I'm having to repeat this.

As for everything taking a 10 point deduction, sure. I'm still trying to figure out an objective, ability driven reason to qualify that though. Unless we start Chargen at -10 build points, which to me is just silly. Not to mention that puts Loup-Garou even further below the starting point.

Loup Garou are now my biggest problem here, in that I can't keep their points above 0 based on their abilities.

Makes me have some respect for the devs.

Also makes me realize that a purely objective system doesn't work for the bp tallies of the races.

EDIT: Figured the human issue out at least. Make Edge 2/7 the Normal Baseline, and give every single other race out there Metagenic Deficiency (Edge). Then I can lose the Common Quality at the same time. Also only changes all values down by 5.

Loup Garou do not have any special requirement to have a cost to play - with their innate penalties, I can easily see making them free, as I have stated before. Those penalties might even be enough to justify giving additional Build Points to play one.

10-point reduction does nothing to the cost of any template races (Infected, Shifters, Drakes), as the reduction has already been applied to them with their base race. The 10-point reduction can instead be seen as a 10-point Ability Bonus applied to all races. There is no other mechanical way price Humans at 0, which is exactly where they should remain.

The overly-high costs of some options - notably the higher-level Infected & Free Spirits - is not simply objective or opinionated. I have stated before that abilities have decreased values at higher Build Point costs, due to the limitations placed on other areas of the character (in terms of how many points are available). I have proposed a system for determining appropriate cost reductions for this in a previous post. I admit, it may need some adjustments to function properly, but it is a strong starting point.

First problem with this - Metagenic Deficiency cannot be applied to Special Attributes, unless you intend to change it, which there really is no point. Second, Metagenic Deficiency reduces the maximum value - so your 2/7 Edge would become 2/6 - not what we want.

As I stated above, the easiest solution is simply to apply a 10-point 'discount' to all races, or alternatively, give them 10 points of abilities free - it amounts to the same thing. As this is a universal discount, there is no reason whatsoever to classify it as a Quality/Ability. Such a classification is only useful/needed for something that applies only to a portion of the available options.

Uh, check Metagenic Deficiency again:

To reiterate: Metagenic Deficiency as defined lowers the maximum AND minimum amounts. It's detailed above. And yes, I intend it to apply to Edge as well, simply because it was a necessary balance point. Oh, and Metagenic Deficiency is a new quality I wrote up. It's not in the books, so automatically it varied from the standard.

As to your discount, how would you word that? Remember, we're building the structure on a build-your-race system so no one can go "How did you get that?" or "Why isn't this higher/lower?" That's what happened in several other threads, and frankly, I won't have it here. This is going to be spelled out, point for point so it's understood by everyone how we got from human to whatever. Your discount is an arbitrary, "Everyone else gets a discount" value, and that is strictly what I'm trying to avoid here.

Yes, I'm being a pain in the ass. I warned people about that in the first post.

Is there actually some reason why humans must cost 0 points, becouse thats an opionated decision too.

Had a quick browse - I'll take a more in-depth look later.

One comment (I hope no-one's already made it): in terms of game balance, +1 to 10 attributes is significantly less useful than, say, +10 to 1 attribute. Rather than charging the free spirit 100bp for his +1 to everything, I'd say more along the lines of 80 (when was the last time a character you played benefited significantly from every single attribute they posess?). By the same token, the bear's +6 bod is probably worth more than 6-pts, since it enables you to play a character with a final bod of 18 (as an adept, by way of example) - something a human can never do.

There's also the issue that some stats (Agi, Log, Bod) are pretty awesome, and some come up sub-par (Str), so adjusted costing is justified there as well.

Some stats also have synergies - a character that wants high Bod is fairly likely to want high Agi as well (combat wombat), so an increase in cost would be warranted. A race that adds to Cha and Str, on the other hand, might be eligible for a discount, since those two stats are almost always valued by wildly different characters (face vs. face-kicker).

Also? Don't zero-out humans. If we're trying to make a fair chargen system, people should be paying for their +1 Edge. Yes this means all races will cost you some. Deal with it.

Frankly, I didn't want to have to put out different qualities for each individual stat, due to differing values. Like making Metagenic Improvement (Body) be 10 points, but Metagenic Improvement (Str) be only 5 points. That starts getting overly complicated.

If everyone insists on that being the way it be done, then we need an objective analysis of what stat is worth what and WHY it's worth more than another stat. No subjective "In my opinion" or "Because it feels more important" crap. I'll ignore it flat out.

Regarding the not zeroing out humans thought, not a bad idea. But do we really want to charge for even the baseline race?

EDIT: I figure there's a starting point, and that point is 0. Humans are the progenitor for all other races in SR (Sapient critters, Shifters and non-corporeal entities aside), so it seems rational to leave them at base 0 so we have a starting point. Increasing them to 10 and just leaving it that way would work though, and you're right, it is an opinionated view to force them back to 10.

Why must there be a 'baseline' race? Playing a human in the world of shadowrun can be just as interesting and unique an experience as any other race, and they have a mechanical advantage that no-one else has. That fully justifies them costing points to me.

As for stat weights: look at how much each stat drives, and how important that is to your basic archetypes.

Str: melee damage, 'carrying capacity' (which is sort of a roleplaying point, but it's still there in spirit), range of bows. - helpful, though not required, for a physad or other melee sam. All but useless to other archetypes.
Agi: very large number of skills (including all combat skills) - pretty much a must for sams, either melee or ranged. Helpful for anyone who wants to contribute in a fight at all. Not useful for deckers / TMs, faces, most mages.
etc...

And when a race gains two stats, query if they're complimentary or not. If they're higly complimentary for the archetypes that value them the most (str and agi or str and bod for a sam, int and cha for a face etc.) then adjust them up. If they're not really complimentary for singular archetypes, but are more of a 'jack-of-all-trades' thing, adjust down slightly.

If a stat costs 10 for +1, I'd think of maybe 23 for +2, 36 for +3 etc. (10n + 3(n-1))
For multiple stats, maybe shave 10% off for each additional stat (starting with the highest), so +3cha, +2agi, +2bod would be (36 + 23(0.9) + 23(0.8)) ~= 71 (instead of 82) then adjust for stat synergy - either a fixed modifier for posessing synergistic stats (+5/10BP), or a modifier to the cost multiplier (+5/10%), or a fixed modifier scaled by how high the stat is (+1/2BP per stat point).

Also possibly only compare stats that are near the highest highest in modifiers, so a critter with, say +4cha, +1str, +1bod wouldn't pay extra for the str & bod (since cha is already so expensive you there's no risk of it being min-maxed as a combat-wombat) but the bear who gets +6 str and bod would become more expensive than just the +6 to two stats would indicate.

By putting a non-0 cost on ever race, there is no longer a baseline - something that would be very bad for various reasons. Further, to achieve the same options, you would then need to up the base starting Build Points to 410 - once again, not attractive for various reasons.

On account of Metagenic Deficiency - I was thinking of Impaired (Attribute). I honestly do not know why you simply did not use this.

With the written aspect you seem to need to tell everyone why the costs are as they are, something along the lines of a simple "Note: The costs for all non-Quality (Template) species are reduced by 10 from their total calculated value to achieve a 0-Build Point baseline Human." at the beginning would suffice.

Once again regarding the Loup Garou, I am continuing to become even more inclined to make that Infected Template a Negative Quality. Their downsides are certainly harsh enough to outweigh their bonuses, and our assigned values do agree with this.


There are numerous problems with assigning varying values to the Attributes, many of which have already been covered. The point is, the problem of some Attributes not being as useful/powerful as others is a flaw in the Attribute design, not with their assigned costs, and needs to be fixed there, not with their costs. Adjusting the costs only patches the problem, not solving it.

Yeah, if you really want a baseline, just subtract 10 from the final cost of every race, to balance it out.



Except to do that you would have to redesign the entire system from the ground up.

If humans cost 0 points they shouldn't get the +1 to edge, becouse in this system everyone have to pay for all of their advantages(thats actually the whole idea)
So humans should cost the 10 build points that their abilities cost mechanically cost.

Platinum, while I appreciate the idea of making a non-linear, adaptive system to apply to the points here, I'll be honest with you. I have neither the time, wherewithal or resources to try and create such a system. As mentioned, I'd have to scrap what we have here, a linear BP system (after all, I'm trying to redress the BP racial costs by going further in depth and determining the exact whys of each cost, not create a whole brand new system), and start with something brand new.

Your suggestion would be better suited to say, the karma gen system, or something totally new. That said, I recommend you go for it, because I won't be able to do it.

As for why I didn't use "Impaired (Attribute)", there are 2 reasons. First, I'll be honest, I didn't know about it. I managed to miss it in my read through of RC. Even so, I still prefer mine because of the second reason. I wanted a direct mirror to Metagenic Improvement (Attribute), so we could realistically adjust up or down the cost of races based on their baseline stats.

Speaking of Baseline, the Human Zero Problem. (Wow, sounds all Official and spooky and shit) Every game, every system should have a baseline. Almost like a control group in an experiment. Something to compare everything else to. Here's your basic human, he's average and unimpressive, as a rule. Now look at X race, and the varying differences you get. That's why they cost Y amount more. Granted, we could just announce the baseline is 1/6 for all stats and be done with it, thereby making a number, and not a race a baseline. I'm not sure that sits well with me though. But it would be objective. It would make even humans a little special in a fantastical world, instead of being plane jane boring.

Honestly, I'm really tempted to add Metagenic Deficiency (Edge) to every single race other than Humans and Pixies. That'll get that 10 point deficiency across the board while leaving humans at 0 by announcing that 2/7 is the baseline on Edge because that's the Human baseline. EDIT: LOL Course, that then makes their metavariant cost less than them if we incorporate all the other changes. I'm so stupid. The Nartaki should have the same Edge as humans, so they should be 10 points more in cost. That's something I'm going to fix right away.

How do you get this..? The Nartaki are Humans, simply with SURGE traits. Also if you want to look at it purely mechnically, they gain 10 points by reducing their Edge, then pay 10 points to increase it again... Makes no sense at all.

Nicely done... for purposes of old school BP generation. I think you got the costs very nearly spot on for balance purposes. (as long as it's within +-5BP you're doing pretty good as that's only about +-1% of 400BP char). You're paying nicely for the base statlines w/ a slight package deal discount IMO.

Orks still fill their niche, the costs nicely reflect the stat bar, w/ a little bit of a discount to reflect the anti-ork racism. Trolls are no longer a rediculous bargain.

Dwarves get a big price shock... but that's primarily due to str upping their costs... unless you pay attention to not all attributes are created equal (which I agree w/ your reasons for not doing so) there's no way to fix that.

One final cost mod I can think of which could be added to Dwarves and Trolls... I rescanned the thread and don't know if you added Happydaze's suggestion at all. It does make sense to give trolls and dwarves a few bonus points for needing non-human sized or specially fit gear. It also makes sense to give dwarves a few extra points because they're naturally slower than other classes, while giving trolls an extra cost because they're faster than normal.

At 5 points a piece that would move dwarves from 60 -> 50 (seems reasonable to me). While keeping trolls even -5 equipment +5 speed.

Uh, Mu, what are you talking about? I neglected to add in the human norm for Edge to the Nartaki. As a result, they gained one more Ability (Metagenic Improvement (Edge)) and a 10 point cost increase. I never mentioned anything about them lowering it and then raising it again later or anything. I simply missed a needed factor in the cost.
Where's the confusion?

?

Trolls are not worth 75 BP. Trolls struggle to be worth half that. In a world in which humans cost 10 BP, you are making them 65 BP.

You're overbilling for strength. Orks suffer to.

I'm billing all attributes the exact same, Cthulu. I already mentioned above why I am not doing individual costs on the different attribute.

Sure, but the effect is to make trolls totally unplayable - 75BP (85 BP by back door edge bonus humans get) is not usable, except for really edge case and optimised characters (think, troll archers). That isn't a stated design goal, so I assumed you'd like the issue pointed out.

If you want to scrap trolls as a playable race, that is fine, just be aware that is what you are doing.

You should just fold strength into body for the purposes of assessing costs - so races with boosted bodies get the strength for free. Every other statistic has value by itself - but strength is made of fail.

You're mentioning consistency but arbitrarily devaluing stregth, and now suggesting removing its value altogether by lumping it in body.

My goal is and always has been simply to provide a consistent, objective BP building of the races, from arbitrary value adjustments as exist in the books now.

It's rapidly becoming apparent that it's impossible to stay objective.

See, you seem to view things as X vs Y attribute. I view them all as just attributes for the purpose of this system. An attribute is an attribute, an active skill an active skill, a knowledge skill a knowledge skill. Abilities and qualities vary in cost purely because no matter how you slice it, one is not equal to another.

The problem with that though is that point costing is still arbitrary. Less so, but it's still there. Point cost is supposed to be based off usefulness, at least in a balanced system. Now, shadowrun is too complicated to ever be truly balanced, but your breakdown above is a step in the right direction and I'd like to see it taken further.

Okay, so it seems we need to really rethink overall costs. I've tried to keep everything in 5 BP increments so that it mirrors as much of the existing BP system as possible (skill costs notwithstanding).

Either way, let's put any changes on pause, and let's attack attribute values.

I start at a base of 10 because that's the RAW BP value of a single attribute point.
Go down the line and if you think an attribute should be worth more or less per point, give a value and a reason. I'm content with 10 per, but I'm not developing this optional rule for my use.

You claim to be starting with a base of 2/7 Edge, and giving every race without that starting Metagenic Deficiency. So why is the Nartaki paying for the base value of 2/7?

If you go with my suggestion to simply start everything at 1/6, and give everything a 10-point discount, the same thing - they pay 10 points for their increased Edge, and gain 10 points from the discount, still resulting in no change, unless you had already applied the discount.


Regarding Attribute values - once again, for everyone trying to get varying values, some Attributes are indeed better than others. This is not, however, an issue with how much they cost, but with the Attributes themselves. If you try to solve this by making different Attributes cost different amounts, you are not fixing the problem - you are throwing a temporary patch on it that creates it's own problems. You now have to figure out which Attributes are better than others, which are worse, by how much, assign a value to each, and then do the same for Karma Advancement costs, which has an entirely different scale (3-based instead of 5/10-based).

If you want to truly fix the problem, you need to adjust what the Attribute does, which is different from the purpose of this thread. Just as a starting point, I will give an example with Strength, as it is the biggest offender - increase the Recoil Compensation granted by Strength to 4/1, 7/2, 10/3, 13/4, etc. I do not believe this will fully balance it, but it is a good starting point.

Okay, that's part of the SUGGESTED changes. Look at the stat blocks again. I've not adjusted or added in those proposed changes yet. All I did was bring the Nartaki up to the human level, that's it. I wasn't yet comfortable with my proposed changes, so I left them out of the stat blocks until I had more input from the community.


This whole "Everything else gets a discount" is something I'm not comfortable with, because, frankly, there's no reason for it. Nothing I can jot down in the build system, other than Humans have a 10 point penalty. Hooray. That's not cool. That's arbitrary, and that's precisely what I'm trying to avoid.


As you mentioned, adjusting the Attributes and how much use they have in the game is something that is way outside the scope of this thread. I'm focusing on what I can and am willing to affect with this idea. So within the current context of the RAW rules, based on how useful or not useful or whatever each stat is, how would you propose weighting each one? And please, give a good set of reasons. Heck, if you popped out a nice grid of why X weighs more than Y that would be awesome. I've not the mindset for it, as mentioned, so that's why I'm leaning on others for this bit.

As for Karma based, I'm not touching that at all. If this balances, then Karma will follow suit (basically).